Andreas on June 09, 2012, 02:30:18 pm
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-national-security/plenty-hide

I thought this would be interesting to this forum, since it deals with things nobody wants the government involved in (*wink* first find some common ground *nudge*)
[edit: -ment, +-ed in. (brainfart)]
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:35:40 am by Andreas »

myrkul999 on June 09, 2012, 03:07:10 pm
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-national-security/plenty-hide

I thought this would be interesting to this forum, since it deals with things nobody wants the government involvement (*wink* first find some common ground *nudge*)

Well found!

And entirely true. Just because you're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you don't have something you'd like kept private. We can't all be Leo LaPorte. (and even he doesn't have cameras in his bathroom)

macsnafu on June 11, 2012, 10:50:58 am
Yep.  I've always hated the "nothing to hide" argument.  My reply was more like, sure, but I don't care to have people watch me pick my nose or go to the bathroom!

Or have people know that I still listen to Barry Manilow or the Carpenters.  Oh, snap!  I just gave myself away!


I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

Killydd on June 11, 2012, 01:14:13 pm
Indeed.  Just like "No, I'm not going to fucking search my own car for you when you pull me over."

wdg3rd on June 11, 2012, 10:36:34 pm
Yep.  I've always hated the "nothing to hide" argument.  My reply was more like, sure, but I don't care to have people watch me pick my nose or go to the bathroom!

Or have people know that I still listen to Barry Manilow or the Carpenters.  Oh, snap!  I just gave myself away!

Possibly too much information.  Though ABBA and Gordon Lightfoot are my secret sins.

We're getting old.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Andreas on June 11, 2012, 11:09:58 pm
If we're doing confession, I listened to something the other day, which made me ask myself:
Which is the scariest of these tropes of subjugation?
"If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear"
"If you've something to hide, you shouldn't even be here"
"If you've changed your mind, I'm afraid it's too late"

myrkul999 on June 11, 2012, 11:21:31 pm
If we're doing confession, I listened to something the other day, which made me ask myself:
Which is the scariest of these tropes of subjugation?
"If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear"
"If you've something to hide, you shouldn't even be here"
"If you've changed your mind, I'm afraid it's too late"

I'd have to say, "If you've something to hide, you shouldn't even be here." Especially considering that, as the article points out, everyone has something to hide. The first one is mildly worrying, and the last is simply a statement of fact (imagine it said about half-way from here to mars), but that one... that one scares the pants off me.

macsnafu on June 12, 2012, 09:10:31 am
Yep.  I've always hated the "nothing to hide" argument.  My reply was more like, sure, but I don't care to have people watch me pick my nose or go to the bathroom!

Or have people know that I still listen to Barry Manilow or the Carpenters.  Oh, snap!  I just gave myself away!

Possibly too much information.  Though ABBA and Gordon Lightfoot are my secret sins.

We're getting old.

 :P
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

dough560 on June 18, 2012, 09:36:27 am
Q.  What's the scariest question you can be asked when you're hooked up to the polygraph?

A.   Have you ever.......?  Followed by silence.

Happened to me when I was taking the Army's investigator's course.  Pegged every needle on the machine as every screw up in my life flashed before my eyes.

macsnafu on June 18, 2012, 12:55:39 pm
Q.  What's the scariest question you can be asked when you're hooked up to the polygraph?

A.   Have you ever.......?  Followed by silence.

Happened to me when I was taking the Army's investigator's course.  Pegged every needle on the machine as every screw up in my life flashed before my eyes.

Well, when giving a polygraph test, they're supposed to give you some obvious questions that you will answer truthfully so they have a baseline standard to work from.  But it's not hard to ask different types of questions to skew or "rig" the results.   Mainly, the polygraph is a tool of initimidation, not a great source of evidence.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

Andreas on June 18, 2012, 04:40:17 pm
I've never had a polygraph test, but with a simple electrodes-on-fingertips test, I had fun "flexing" my ears while answering baseline questions, which caused a big reaction on the dial... :D :D :D
Probably won't work on a more sophisticated setup, though.

myrkul999 on June 18, 2012, 05:35:01 pm
I've never had a polygraph test, but with a simple electrodes-on-fingertips test, I had fun "flexing" my ears while answering baseline questions, which caused a big reaction on the dial... :D :D :D
Probably won't work on a more sophisticated setup, though.

No, for that you slip a thumbtack into your shoe. Of course, you can be trained to beat it even without the thumbtack, it just requires complete (as in damn near sociopathic) detachment from the questions.

dough560 on June 19, 2012, 10:39:27 am
In the Eighties the Army's Criminal Investigation Polygraph Examiners Course, was allegedly the toughest school teaching the subject.  The Army Standard is for a battery of 10 questions, three of which concern the investigation.  The wording of each question is agreed on in advance and written out to preclude changes.  The battery of ten questions will be repeated three times, in any order but the wording may not be changed.  There is a rest period between each questioning session.  These sessions may be audio or video recorded.  Any unauthorized changes invalidates the test and the records of the test are referred (blind) to two or three other operators for interpretation.  All operators must reach the same conclusion for the tests to be valid....  Even if the subject confess to the offense, a second session is initiated under the same standards, to verify the confession.  Followed by the same blind pier review by different reviewers.  The physical conditions of the test were a soundproof air-conditioned room equipped with a with a one way mirror.  The room was occupied only by the operator, necessary equipment and the suspect.  I and another person witnessed the tests through the mirror and otherwise had no input to the tests.

The polygraph is an investigative tool when it is used in this manner.  I've heard some serious horror stories involving local and state operators who apparently are not held to the standards I was used to.  Anyone who sits for an open ended session is a fool.

In three years I requested and six suspects agreed to be polygraphed.  Two were cleared.  Three subsequently confessed to the appropriate offenses.  One was identified as the primary suspect, but did not confess.  The polygraph results provided additional information which ultimately lead to prosecution and conviction by Court Martial.  I was lucky the operator available to me was rated the #1 operator in CID.  The man's voice when working was a mellow, calm monotone.  Watching him work was an experience.

macsnafu on June 19, 2012, 11:02:11 am
In the Eighties the Army's Criminal Investigation Polygraph Examiners Course, was allegedly the toughest school teaching the subject.  The Army Standard is for a battery of 10 questions, three of which concern the investigation.  The wording of each question is agreed on in advance and written out to preclude changes.  The battery of ten questions will be repeated three times, in any order but the wording may not be changed.  There is a rest period between each questioning session.  These sessions may be audio or video recorded.  Any unauthorized changes invalidates the test and the records of the test are referred (blind) to two or three other operators for interpretation.  All operators must reach the same conclusion for the tests to be valid....  Even if the subject confess to the offense, a second session is initiated under the same standards, to verify the confession.  Followed by the same blind pier review by different reviewers.  The physical conditions of the test were a soundproof air-conditioned room equipped with a with a one way mirror.  The room was occupied only by the operator, necessary equipment and the suspect.  I and another person witnessed the tests through the mirror and otherwise had no input to the tests.

The polygraph is an investigative tool when it is used in this manner.  I've heard some serious horror stories involving local and state operators who apparently are not held to the standards I was used to.  Anyone who sits for an open ended session is a fool.

That was my point--the questioning has to be done just right to be effective.  Otherwise, it's merely being used to intimidate the suspect.  Talk of the suspect using a tack or something to skew the baseline misses the problems of mishandling, deliberate or or not, by the person conducting the test.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.