sam on May 08, 2012, 04:55:15 am
In the renaissance, men were remarkably manly by modern standards, but Machiavelli remarks in passing on the character of women:

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fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her.

Obviousy women prefer manly men.  Big surprise.  But their comprehension of what is manly tends to be primitive and childlike.  Patriarchs had a better conception off manliness.
My reading of your Machiavelli quote agrees with my statement.  :-)  He says, "mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly."  I.e., it is not mistreatment she is after, but the excitement and adventure.

"Beat and ill use her"

Obviously women are not after mistreatment, indeed they resist it most forcefully and obstreperously.  Women don't want to be mistreated - but they want the guy who mistreats them.  Because their resistance to mistreatment is so firm, it is hard to mistreat them - but nonetheless rewarding.

Andreas on May 08, 2012, 06:38:14 am
What do you think you will achieve with your antics, Customdesigned?
I will say this only once: You will receive no accolades for beating up a masochist, only a soiled stick.
This is not "the place for sam to get himself off", so PLEASE, stop helping him get himself off, here!  >:(
In other words, back off or get a room.

Killydd on May 09, 2012, 10:05:05 am
I can't believe even more of these people exist:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyTYuKsOcw&feature=share

Andreas on May 09, 2012, 02:43:11 pm
I can't believe even more of these people exist:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyTYuKsOcw&feature=share
You know how it is with cockroaches... if you see one...

sam on May 09, 2012, 09:12:12 pm
I can't believe even more of these people exist:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyTYuKsOcw&feature=share

I notice you cannot refute us either.

Emancipation of women was a big mistake.  Most women are not capable of handling those kind of choices, and choose alarmingly badly, whereas before emancipation, their parents and husbands wisely guided their choices.

We had this debate back in the days when emancipation was a hot issue.  The Victorian propaganda that women were sexless innocents ravaged by lecherous men was the politically correct reply to the anti emancipationist argument that women were hot to trot and down to fuck, and would be led by their pussies into making bad choices. 

Observe what has in fact happened.

macsnafu on May 10, 2012, 09:32:09 am
I can't believe even more of these people exist:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPyTYuKsOcw&feature=share

I notice you cannot refute us either.

Emancipation of women was a big mistake.  Most women are not capable of handling those kind of choices, and choose alarmingly badly, whereas before emancipation, their parents and husbands wisely guided their choices.

We had this debate back in the days when emancipation was a hot issue.  The Victorian propaganda that women were sexless innocents ravaged by lecherous men was the politically correct reply to the anti emancipationist argument that women were hot to trot and down to frack, and would be led by their pussies into making bad choices. 

Observe what has in fact happened.

Emancipating men was a big mistake.  Most men are not capable of handling the choices of modern society, and choose alarmingly badly.   They are led by their dicks into making bad choices. 
The evidence is overwhelming--look at all the criminals, bums, drunks, addicts, politicians, and others.  Men make bad choices--is it not obvious?

Or is this really a case of the particular circumstances men and women find themselves in?  That today's society creates certain incentives for doing bad things, and that people are merely responding to those incentives?  Expect someone to be immature and irresponsible, and unsurprisingly, most people will act immature and irresponsible.  Going against the grain of peer pressure and societal expectations is hard and uncommon.  Homeowners generally take better care of their homes than renters do.  Give politicians power and, again unsurprisingly, they have a strong tendency to abuse that power.

Thus, women behave badly precisely because YOU and many others in society expect them to.  I hate to quote Michael Jackson, but solving the problem really does start with the person in the mirror first.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

sam on May 10, 2012, 06:32:23 pm
The evidence is overwhelming--look at all the criminals, bums, drunks, addicts, politicians, and others.  Men make bad choices--is it not obvious?

A small minority of men are criminals, bums, etc.  A large majority of women make alarmingly poor choices in whom they sleep with, and when they sleep with them - a large majority of women do the kind of stupid stuff that patriarchy was justified as preventing them from doing.

Thus, women behave badly precisely because YOU and many others in society expect them to.

I really did not expect treating women badly to appeal to them, and it took me a long time to learn to do so.

Indeed, that is why nerds do so badly with women.  Nerds operate on reason, rather than instinct, and foolishly expect women to do the same.  Nerds are equipped with healthy and appropriate instincts on how to treat women, but foolishly and timorously overrule those instincts and instead treat women as if women were rational beings.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 06:36:24 pm by sam »

fliegelmaus on May 10, 2012, 07:50:07 pm
"As if" women were rational beings? Duuude -- how would this guy know?

sam on May 11, 2012, 04:17:32 am
"As if" women were rational beings?

If women were rational beings, they would be more apt to choose nice single guys in high income professions, and would seek marriage when their own market value is highest, instead of when it is rapidly vanishing - in short, they would marry the way they did back in the days when their sexual choices were guided or made by their parents.

myrkul999 on May 11, 2012, 05:33:50 am
"As if" women were rational beings?
If women were rational beings...

If you were a rational being, you would realize that your toxic ideas are getting exactly zero traction, and stop spewing them.

macsnafu on May 11, 2012, 09:58:25 am
The evidence is overwhelming--look at all the criminals, bums, drunks, addicts, politicians, and others.  Men make bad choices--is it not obvious?

A small minority of men are criminals, bums, etc.  A large majority of women make alarmingly poor choices in whom they sleep with, and when they sleep with them - a large majority of women do the kind of stupid stuff that patriarchy was justified as preventing them from doing.
Still no solid statistics, just assertion and anecdotes.  What statistics DO show is that more men are in jail than women.  Obviously, some women make bad choices, but I've seen plenty of women who have made good choices--several of my coworkers are female, and are married, have kids, and have a stable family life steady jobs, and a  decent income and lifestyles.
I've lived in a bad neighborhood where I encountered prostitutes and drug addicts.  I've also lived in better neighborhoods where such things were nonexistent.  The better neighborhoods outnumber the bad neighborhoods in my city.

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Indeed, that is why nerds do so badly with women.  Nerds operate on reason, rather than instinct, and foolishly expect women to do the same.  Nerds are equipped with healthy and appropriate instincts on how to treat women, but foolishly and timorously overrule those instincts and instead treat women as if women were rational beings.
Nerds tend to do badly with women because they tend to be introverts, and don't work so hard on developing their social skills as other people do.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

sam on May 12, 2012, 01:17:36 am
Still no solid statistics, just assertion and anecdotes. 

The average age of marriage is a statistic.  The anecdotes cannot be seriously denied, and I don't see anyone attempting to deny them.  We all know how women behave.  And some of those anecdotes, for example the video of fake celebrity at the mall, necessarily involve a representative sample of females.

macsnafu on May 13, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
Still no solid statistics, just assertion and anecdotes. 

The average age of marriage is a statistic.  The anecdotes cannot be seriously denied, and I don't see anyone attempting to deny them.  We all know how women behave.  And some of those anecdotes, for example the video of fake celebrity at the mall, necessarily involve a representative sample of females.

Of course the anecdotes cannot be seriously denied, but they can still be statistically insignificant!
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

Andreas on May 13, 2012, 04:18:28 pm
Srsly, can't you guys hear the *fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*, every time you rise to his bait?
It does seem like shunning is going to be a rather ineffective justice device.

quadibloc on May 14, 2012, 03:57:15 pm
If women were rational beings, they would be more apt to choose nice single guys in high income professions, and would seek marriage when their own market value is highest, instead of when it is rapidly vanishing - in short, they would marry the way they did back in the days when their sexual choices were guided or made by their parents.
This depends on how you define "rational".

It is, though, perhaps more obvious that women's sexual choices are not made for the reasons that would seem rational to an external party. After all, it's understandable why men go after what they go after - a healthier, more youthful woman will do a better job of propagating his genes. Not that being an interesting companion to talk to, or a good cook, aren't also valuable.

But women! We can understand that marrying a handsome man may be just as important to them as marrying a rich man. And we might also recognize that like men, they may be hesitant to commit.

But it is true that a lot of women seem to find "macho" men attractive, and too many of those end up abusing their wives. And a lot of these men are becoming more and more obsolete in a world where machines do the heavy lifting, and the pressing need is for computer experts.

I don't think this is, however, an indication that women are more irrational than other people. (Their menstrual cycle, and the shifting moods that result from it, make them more obviously irrational than men, but getting caught does not equal being guilty.)

Women are hardwired by biology to find the alpha male, who can protect them from others, sexy. Because that represents how our ancestors - our ape ancestors, and our monkey ancestors before them - were organized. And if a man doesn't "do" something for a woman at a deep, subconscious level, the chemistry of attraction doesn't get started.

Since a sexual relationship has to be emotionally satisfying to be useful to a woman - more so now, that women can earn a living on their own - this isn't all that irrational, even though it may be distressing.

I happen to think that the former Soviet Union was a very bad place, but I can see that if I were more politically naive, it would tempt me. A country where the thoughtful leaders might do such things as putting the future ballet dancers in the same high school as the future physicists. A country where the authorities clamp down firmly on those who would try to disrupt the nation's scientific progress by harassing bright students in school or attacking the wives of scientists. Probably the academics even have separate bars to go to!