Big.Swede on February 22, 2012, 12:56:06 pm
Now im no lawyer. Got way to much conciense and love for my fellow man. ;)  But would not an abandoned ISS fall under some kind of salvage laws, much like an abandoned ship would? Or at least close enough that you can make a legal case about it?

I know i know, this is EfT, AnCap doesnt care about those laws. But this takes place before the Mars colonization and Belter towns go up so the question remains. Would it be conicdered worth trying to play the salvage card and get it for free and legaly so, rather than go for an outright theft? Anyone got any experience with salvage rights laws or laws in general that can make a guess?
"Im purely a layman, wondering from a laymans point of view."

SandySandfort on February 22, 2012, 03:53:41 pm
Wait for it.

Now im no lawyer. Got way to much conciense and love for my fellow man. ;)  But would not an abandoned ISS fall under some kind of salvage laws, much like an abandoned ship would? Or at least close enough that you can make a legal case about it?

I know i know, this is EfT, AnCap doesnt care about those laws. But this takes place before the Mars colonization and Belter towns go up so the question remains. Would it be conicdered worth trying to play the salvage card and get it for free and legaly so, rather than go for an outright theft? Anyone got any experience with salvage rights laws or laws in general that can make a guess?

dough560 on February 22, 2012, 04:26:02 pm
You would think salvage laws would apply, but it's not about law or the perception of law.  Every major political affiliation severely restricts Individual space access.

One legal argument:  The facility is under remote control.  Accordingly, it is not "abandoned".  Occupation is not needed to maintain ownership.  Therefore the facility is not subject to salvage law. (Political bodies also make special rules and procedures intended to secure their dominance in any issue.)

The true danger for governmental bodies is the philosophical differences emboldened by the pioneers who will open this frontier.  Pioneers will be highly motivated, self directed and goal orientated.  Eventually the pioneers will resent agencies and bureaucrats interfering in their lives.  Especially those who do not work within their environment, with it attendant risks.

Space by it's very nature, will free individuals from governmental control and domination.  The EFT storyline is the stuff of nightmares for government bureaucrats who think far enough ahead.

Already demonstrated within this story line:  Political bodies are willing to destroy a facility they no longer have any use for, rather than allow it to come under individual control.

      Political and Governmental bodies claim, "Individuals are incompetent to proceed without governmental control and guidance."

      Individual(s) in possession of the ISS who succeed without governmental "guidance and control" demonstrate the falseness of this position.

Individual success ultimately weakens governmental control.  Individuals succeeding without or in-spite of  the government increases individual desires for freedom and self-determination. The danger to governments of Individuals who ask,  "What do I get from the government, for my lack of freedom?"  " Why are there so many restrictions which limits or prohibits my ability to individually succeed."  (Especially with the example of the theft of the ISS,)  Can not be understated.

Another government viewpoint is a tactical one.  Pioneers would have the ability to tell the governments "No" and make it stick.  Rocks are cheap and it's all down hill.

SandySandfort on February 22, 2012, 06:20:06 pm
Space by it's very nature, will free individuals from governmental control and domination.  The EFT storyline is the stuff of nightmares for government bureaucrats who think far enough ahead.

Their nightmare; my wet dream.  ;D

FredG on February 23, 2012, 03:00:20 am
I also would like to point out that in the current situation, Leon and Terry are planning to steal a spaceship and escape to Mars.  Who's going to make him stand trial?  If he's tried in absentia, what does he care?  He's on Mars (with a hot wife as well!)

Killydd on February 23, 2012, 12:25:42 pm
The real reason that the ISS would be de-orbited rather than mothballed is that LEO isn't strictly speaking stable.  There is a slight bit of atmosphere that slows it and requires constant attention to keep it from falling.  Also, it turns out that the sunlight even has enough force to make the orbit more elliptical to where it will dip deeper into the atmosphere.  The effects are small, but over several years they will tend to crash something with that much surface area.  So they're left with letting it crash somewhere random, or controlling the descent so that (hopefully) it ends up somewhere with little traffic, like a restricted area somewhere in the south pacific.  Of course, your obvious answer, selling it to someone else, is mostly limited by the politics you describe:  governments can't believe that a corporation or individual would have the money and will to buy it and keep it running safely.  If such an offer was made, they might or might not believe it. 

Of course, in spite of my governmental tendencies, I do accept your argument that if private citizens can get past orbit without excessive government assistance, an ancap society might result, since that frontier would be much less hostile to it.

dough560 on February 23, 2012, 01:32:41 pm
Yep, everything in orbit WILL come down.  Eventually.  Whether from atmospheric drag or solar wind.  You're looking at anywhere from a couple of decades of orbital life to a century or more before atmosphere termination.

Used properly the resulting elliptical orbit could be used to increase the ISS orbital attitude.  That's not what the government is planning in this instance, is it?


Apollo-Soyuz on February 23, 2012, 10:09:07 pm
Now im no lawyer. Got way to much conciense and love for my fellow man. ;)  But would not an abandoned ISS fall under some kind of salvage laws, much like an abandoned ship would? Or at least close enough that you can make a legal case about it?


We're talking about a government here, remember?

So remember, you can be arrested for breaking US law outside of US jurisdiction, even if the the "crime" is not a crime in the country you are in.

Meanwhile, the US freely violates habeas corpus and a dozen other things the constitution specifically says it isn't allowed to do, but it's OK because they're not US citizens and they're not in sovereign US territory  (just an area we lease in perpetually)

Heck, ask just ask  Manuel Noriega
  • invaded his country without a declaration of war
  • held him as a POW
  • tried him on civilian drug trafficking charges
  • withheld his past dealings with the CIA because it was "classified"
  • listened in illegally on his protected conversations with his lawyer

(Now if you are the right kind of dictator, the US will fly you out of your home country when things go tango uniform and let you live permanently in Hawaii)

Andreas on February 24, 2012, 04:01:56 pm
States get funny with things that are outside their jurisdiction, and yet are not within the jurisdiction of other states.
That's not just a libertarian conspiracy theory, it's completely true. All states have a very hard time allowing stuff to become ungoverned... they believe it's a matter of principle.
Now, there's the Principality of Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) as a notable exception. But I'm very much afraid it's the only one... and even that one did NOT come about by way of a formal declaration of intent, in triplicate.
Possession is 9/10 of the law, so if you only have that last 10th, you're screwed.
Take possession, keep possession, then send in the paperwork.

The nations that created the ISS see it as their right and privilege to destroy it, if they see fit. They would never let it be "salvaged", and that's my completely serious, non-libertarian, non-paranoid opinion.

spudit on February 24, 2012, 04:09:21 pm
Ha Ha,
Lazarus Long did it first!
But please do continue.
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

EENalley on February 24, 2012, 04:51:17 pm
States get funny with things that are outside their jurisdiction, and yet are not within the jurisdiction of other states.
That's not just a libertarian conspiracy theory, it's completely true. All states have a very hard time allowing stuff to become ungoverned... they believe it's a matter of principle.
Now, there's the Principality of Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) as a notable exception. But I'm very much afraid it's the only one... and even that one did NOT come about by way of a formal declaration of intent, in triplicate.
Possession is 9/10 of the law, so if you only have that last 10th, you're screwed.
Take possession, keep possession, then send in the paperwork.

The nations that created the ISS see it as their right and privilege to destroy it, if they see fit. They would never let it be "salvaged", and that's my completely serious, non-libertarian, non-paranoid opinion.

You raise an interesting point about Sealand, however unless NASA has not scrapped the shuttles in the EFT universe, there really isn't anything the US, or any other nation could do to STOP someone from 'stealing' an abandoned ISS.  It takes months to make a shuttle ready for an ISS mission (or any mission for that matter) and I believe in OUR universe, they have all been rendered unusable.  The Russians could probably get a Soyuz ready faster, but 3 guys isn't exactly a dynamic entry team.  And let's not forget that one bullet not in a body ruins Everybody's day.

dough560 on February 24, 2012, 07:21:26 pm
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance (The 5P's).  Move fast, Hit hard, Don't stop until you accomplish your objective.  One is none, two is one, three is two, and four you're getting there.  Apply this rule for each person involved. 

This is a survival scenario.  Take your assets.  Leave nothing behind you care about.  Prepare for a one way trip.  Keep planning, preparations and execution on a need-to-know basis.  Whoever is left or stays behind will have hell to pay.  The government will be looking for a scapegoat.  Any remaining assets will be seized.  (If only to restrict your ability to mount a criminal defense or develop a follow-on support or expansion mission.  Never mind the governmental loss of face.)

Such a feat will spark the imagination of anyone who longs for freedom.  Government(s)....their nightmares.

For the government(s), troubles will just be starting.  The pioneers succeed and they have opened the door for others.  If the government(s) follow in-order to arrest the pioneers, they will also have opened the door for others.

Oneil on February 25, 2012, 03:37:13 am
As always, love the story and not about raining on the parade...

I just think those that are debating this have mistakenly assumed the only option would be to dispatch a armed team of men to regain control of the station.  In this scenario, the current owners already announced intent to DE-orbit and destroy the station, damaging it would be of little issue to them.

Any invasion of the station and attempt to retrofit it for boost from low earth orbit would give plenty of time to use a Anti-satellite weapon.  A modified US Navy SM-3 would have little problem hitting so large a target, and if that is not an option prep a F-15 with a ASM-135 ASAT.  Those are just the US weapons that are documented to have scored hits on satellites, other nations involved have similar weapons.  Biggest question that pops to mind for me is who would win the argument on getting to shoot at it first. 

mellyrn on February 25, 2012, 11:59:20 am
Quote
A modified US Navy SM-3 would have little problem hitting so large a target, and if that is not an option prep a F-15 with a ASM-135 ASAT.  Those are just the US weapons that are documented to have scored hits on satellites, other nations involved have similar weapons.  Biggest question that pops to mind for me is who would win the argument on getting to shoot at it first.

How fast can Leon get the Highball Express hooked up and get the ISS outta Dodge?  Will the ground-based shooters have time a) to realize that someone's stealing the freakin' station ("Sir, I can't see the ISS -- it's not where it's supposed to be . . . oh, wait, I've got it back . . . it's on some new trajectory, plotting now . . . uhhhm, it's accelerating -- ?  and, um, moving out?  Uh, sir, I think it's leaving orbit, leaving the wrong way, I mean."  "What are you, drunk on duty or something? That's impossible!  It's not like it has drive engines or anything!") and  b) agree on what to do about it?  Will it still be in range then?

dough560 on February 25, 2012, 06:49:25 pm
No one said anything about an armed invasion.  The objective is traveling a known course and would be empty prior to a de-orbit burn.

Mellyrn is correct.  Move fast and by the numbers.  Do the unexpected.  By the time the powers that be, believe the situation.  The chances of being out of dodge are pretty good.

Bureaucrats believe things will happen in accordance with their beliefs and perceptions.  When the unexpected happens, they do not make decisions, but buck it up the line for "clarification and instructions".

Example:  Colonel from Department of the Army and his aggressor team sneaked onto to a base to conduct a readiness exercise.  The local response team had three "approved" reactions to the situation.  The team responded a fourth (unapproved) way, resulting in the aggressors being out maneuvered and defeated in detail.  During the out brief, the Colonel was not concerned with how his aggressors were defeated, but the response team's non-compliance with standard procedure.  The sergeant in charge of the defenders caught serious grief until inviting the Colonel to contact a certain two star general concerning the sergeant's "attitude" with the admonition to tell the general that "Tiger" say's Hi.  Ringing silence ensued.  Eventually, the response team received a superior rating.

Bureaucrats seldom, if ever think out of the box.  Some of us live outside it.

Care to guess who the sergeant was?