wdg3rd on December 16, 2011, 08:28:26 pm
Why is the phrase "Neannie Get Your Gun" invading my head?
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

TMIAHM on December 19, 2011, 11:31:08 pm
Are lawyers human?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

AWESOME LINE!

I worked that out and came up with NO!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

SandySandfort on December 20, 2011, 07:56:56 am
Are lawyers human?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

AWESOME LINE!

I worked that out and came up with NO!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No, but they are a great source of emergency protein! ;)

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on December 20, 2011, 02:38:56 pm
No, but they are a great source of emergency protein! ;)

Unless they go into politics, where it rapidly transmutes to rock-embedded fat (above the neck) and hot air.

spudit on December 20, 2011, 07:02:27 pm
This arc sounds really good and I hope it is a nice long one.
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

knoodelhed on December 21, 2011, 01:31:49 am
Quote from: tobi
So how do we know all this?

Let me guess.

"One of our moles has been in communication with the girl."

Big.Swede on December 21, 2011, 09:39:48 pm
The fact that they are trying to justify it with her not "being human" is troubling in more ways than might first appear. Letīs see if i can make my thoughts understood here.

She is sentient, that much is obvious. But, if she is classified as not human, and that makes it within the "law" to kill her without reprisal. Then what is to stop "lawfull" murders on other sentients that would not classify as human? Other biologicals, AIīs and extra terrestials/dimensionals would be under direct threat. Or how about enslavement? Those rules only apply to humans, not "others".

And how soon would it be untill someone made up a hominid embryo with just enough non-homo sapien sapien DNA in to not classify as human and then start selling them of as cheap labor that has no rights.

And once that slope has been propperly oiled... What kind of DNA code does truly classify as human? Does yours? Does mine? Or would it just be the fat cats with money to burn on getting their will through?
"Iīm purely a layman, wondering from a laymans point of view."

ContraryGuy on December 22, 2011, 01:25:31 am
The fact that they are trying to justify it with her not "being human" is troubling in more ways than might first appear. Letīs see if i can make my thoughts understood here.

She is sentient, that much is obvious. But, if she is classified as not human, and that makes it within the "law" to kill her without reprisal. Then what is to stop "lawfull" murders on other sentients that would not classify as human? Other biologicals, AIīs and extra terrestials/dimensionals would be under direct threat. Or how about enslavement? Those rules only apply to humans, not "others".

And how soon would it be untill someone made up a hominid embryo with just enough non-homo sapien sapien DNA in to not classify as human and then start selling them of as cheap labor that has no rights.

And once that slope has been propperly oiled... What kind of DNA code does truly classify as human? Does yours? Does mine? Or would it just be the fat cats with money to burn on getting their will through?

Big Swede raises great points; points that have and are being being raised all around in both fiction and real world.

Its those last two paragraphs that sound an awful like like Sandy's Anarcho-capitalist society.

"Do as thou wilt, without harm or aggression to others, shall be the whole of the law"

How does an AnCap society enforce basic morals and ethics on people or companies (or companies who are also people) who have enough money to do as they please?

Before everyone corrects me by saying "AnCaps dont enforce anything on anyone", I know that.
But, in an AnCap society, slavery is not only legal, but practiced; both personal and economic.

"He who has the gold, makes the rules."

In a sci-fi setting where the technology for such things exists, how do AnCappers prevent clone slaves?  Are they human, and thus worth protecting, or are they merely creations who mimic life, like Tickle Me Elmo.
No goes to jail for beating up a Tickle Me Elmo; would the same apply to a cloned slave?

What if clones are raised to adult-hood merely so rich people can have rejection-free replacement organs?
This is clearly allowed and probably acceptable in an AnCap society.  Theres no authority to say otherwise.

"He who has the gold, makes the rules."

Bob G on December 22, 2011, 05:45:43 am
Aaand the troll is back. . .
Whatsoever, for any cause, seeketh to take or give
  Power above or beyond the Laws, suffer it not to live.
Holy State, or Holy King, or Holy People's Will.
  Have no truck with the senseless thing, order the guns and kill.

The penultimate stanza of Rudyard Kipling's MacDonough's Song

wdg3rd on December 22, 2011, 06:26:26 am
The fact that they are trying to justify it with her not "being human" is troubling in more ways than might first appear. Letīs see if i can make my thoughts understood here.

She is sentient, that much is obvious. But, if she is classified as not human, and that makes it within the "law" to kill her without reprisal. Then what is to stop "lawfull" murders on other sentients that would not classify as human? Other biologicals, AIīs and extra terrestials/dimensionals would be under direct threat. Or how about enslavement? Those rules only apply to humans, not "others".

And how soon would it be untill someone made up a hominid embryo with just enough non-homo sapien sapien DNA in to not classify as human and then start selling them of as cheap labor that has no rights.

And once that slope has been propperly oiled... What kind of DNA code does truly classify as human? Does yours? Does mine? Or would it just be the fat cats with money to burn on getting their will through?

Suggested reading:

Friday by Robert A. Heinlien
Sims by F. Paul Wilson
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Homer2101 on December 22, 2011, 09:13:43 am
There's no way someone in an AnCap society could be prevented from vat-growing slaves by the dozens, or doing what he wanted with them unless your AnCap society has enforcement mechanisms (aside from lynch mobs) to prevent that sort of thing.

It's not a question of DNA makeup. The answer depends on whether your hypothetical society is a "true" anarchy where everyone can do whatever they want and no-one has power over anyone else, or whether it still has some sort of a state apparatus, for example in the form of courts with the power to force participation by all involved parties and to enforce its decisions. I'm not sure how the court system in EFT works, and what would happen if someone refused to attend or to abide by the court's decrees. Peer pressure only goes so far to force compliance, and inevitably you'd get a social movement advocating for disregarding court decisions, so that social norms and peer pressure alone probably wouldn't work as an enforcement mechanism.

Because humans fundamentally seek to force their world views on others at least to some extent, you'd inevitably get state-like organizations, unless you either assume very heavy indoctrination or ignore human nature. We see that process at work with gated communities that try to dictate everything from the number of pets you may own, to the type of trees you may plant, to the color of your house, and in some instances even to the number of children you may have. But that's a discussion for another time.

SandySandfort on December 22, 2011, 10:56:34 am
There's no way someone in an AnCap society could be prevented from vat-growing slaves by the dozens, or doing what he wanted with them unless your AnCap society has enforcement mechanisms (aside from lynch mobs) to prevent that sort of thing....

Asked and answered, counselor. Please read some of the basic literature about anarcho-capitalism (market anarchy). Much of the basic writings have been referenced in this Forum or you can just start out with Wikipedia. Do your homework and if that does not educate you on the enforcement of rules in an anarchist society, then ask your questions.

Just a couple of definitional concepts. In my writings, "anarchy" means literal anarchy, i.e., "no rulers" (not "no rules")

The basic organizational basis of the Belt, as portrayed in EFT, is "market anarchy"/"anarcho-capitalism"/"anarcho-libertarianism"/etc. Attacking EFT as though it were based on some other sort of anarchism is making a straw-man argument, at a minimum or is a form of intellectual dishonesty, if done intentionally.

macsnafu on December 22, 2011, 11:31:06 am
Aaand the troll is back. . .

Back, and asking the same questions that have been asked and answered before. 
Maybe it's selective amnesia...
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

quadibloc on December 22, 2011, 03:01:39 pm
Just a couple of definitional concepts. In my writings, "anarchy" means literal anarchy, i.e., "no rulers" (not "no rules")
And, of course, I make the opposite mistake when looking at AnCap.

I take it as given that AnCap society has the ZAP as its basis, and thus of course cloned humans have the same rights as anyone else - acts against them are defined as aggression. Thus, anyone who feels like it - and almost everyone is armed - and the people almost unanimously believe in the ZAP - will enforce the ZAP against an egregious offender. Less egregious ones might survive to make it to an arbitrator.

So instead of forgetting the "not no rules" part, I tend to forget the "no rulers" part and imagine that the ZAP enforces itself. Without understanding how the two things balance, though, I don't know what AnCap is enough to be sure it's desirable.

SandySandfort on December 22, 2011, 06:32:13 pm
I take it as given that AnCap society has the ZAP as its basis, and thus of course cloned humans have the same rights as anyone else - acts against them are defined as aggression. Thus, anyone who feels like it - and almost everyone is armed - and the people almost unanimously believe in the ZAP - will enforce the ZAP against an egregious offender. Less egregious ones might survive to make it to an arbitrator.

Bingo.

So instead of forgetting the "not no rules" part, I tend to forget the "no rulers" part and imagine that the ZAP enforces itself. Without understanding how the two things balance, though, I don't know what AnCap is enough to be sure it's desirable.

Well, that's the $64 question, isn't it? I think, yes, but maybe the first approximation isn't good enough. However, at that point, I still do not see anything better on the shelf.

 

anything