sams on September 09, 2011, 02:56:22 am
Nice pop culture reference on today comic page, but would be even more fun to have immigrants come from Vermont  ;D

So here is the question : When does a Market organization become a government ?

In the strip we see that the comity was formed from a seemingly legitimate reason, but soon extended beyond its scoop.

I Shouldn't probably not inject Quantum Vibe universe or Phoebus Krumm, but what is the difference between the Vesta situation and a Corpartion owned world ?

mellyrn on September 09, 2011, 06:46:35 am
Quote
the difference between the Vesta situation and a Corpartion owned world ?

Motive?  Specifically, the profit motive?


I am particularly interested in this development, as in just the past two days I've been thinking:  what do you get when you start with genuine anarchy (meaning plain ruler-lessness, not spring-break chaos) and let it run for millennia?  Just look around.

Someone gets hurt and scared.  He wants to control things so that doesn't happen again.  If he is no orator, has no persuasive skills, he's sunk; but if he's eloquent, he can persuade his leaderless group to accept some tiny, oh-so-reasonable restriction. . . . 

No community goes from a state of adult-grade freedom to jackboots-on-the-face tyranny in one move.  It's gradual, and it always starts with a scare. 

The land of the free MUST be the land of the brave, because only the brave can face the fact that there is no security, not anywhere, ever.

You who want government fear your neighbor (with good reason, too -- as you know intimately well).  So you deal with that fear by . . . electing or appointing him to office and giving him authority over you.  Wow.

As a method of protection, creating government is on a par with tossing a fluffy blanket over your head and singing the Smurf song as loudly as you can.  You still get mugged but you can neither see nor hear your mugger.  Since you believe the blanket does protect you, you can only think, Cheez! If it's this bad with the blanket, it must be ever so much worse without it!  So, too, government:  when your elected/appointed/anointed neighbors rob you, cheat you, renege on their promises to you, send you off to commit crimes you would never have committed otherwise, you can neither see nor hear this as being crimes against you. 

You are not in fact any safer.  John Smith is just as likely to be a liar/cheater/thief/killer as "Senator" Smith or "Officer" Smith as he is as just plain "Citizen" Smith -- but you hallucinate that his having a title makes you safer, as if being in office magically changes his nature from "normal cussed human goat" to "semidivine border collie". 

Pointing out the arbitrary ruthlessness of the whims of warlords in, say, Somalia only means you don't see the arbitrary ruthlessness of your government agents acting on their whims in defiance of all the laws they've passed.  You're getting mugged just the same but it doesn't "count" 'cos it's being done by The Elect(ed).


I'm very much looking forward to how Ceres deals with this threat.  They need to remain "the brave".  When they start to fear, they will follow Vesta.

Maybe that's why frontier cultures tend to be anarchical -- the brave go to the frontier, the fearful stay home.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 06:49:07 am by mellyrn »

Azure Priest on September 09, 2011, 07:14:58 am
I smell con-man.  :) In-equitable distribution? Oh a communist collective! Should break down in a few months of rioting, or perhaps several decades of cyclical revolutions?

quadibloc on September 09, 2011, 07:16:03 am
It seems like an interesting arc too, as indeed we can look forward to seeing some more questions of how AnCap is supposed to work answered.

Gillsing on September 09, 2011, 07:37:04 am
I am particularly interested in this development, as in just the past two days I've been thinking:  what do you get when you start with genuine anarchy (meaning plain ruler-lessness, not spring-break chaos) and let it run for millennia?  Just look around.

Maybe that's why frontier cultures tend to be anarchical -- the brave go to the frontier, the fearful stay home.
I came to the same conclusion when I thought about this. So there doesn't seem to be any real point in striving for anarchy unless there's a frontier that already offers it. Of course, I always tend to go for the "do nothing" alternative. ;)
I'm a slacker, hear me snore...

SandySandfort on September 09, 2011, 08:57:28 am
Nice pop culture reference on today comic page, but would be even more fun to have immigrants come from Vermont  ;D

So here is the question : When does a Market organization become a government ?

There is one and only one difference. I'd like to hear what you and the the other Forum members think that is.

I Shouldn't probably not inject Quantum Vibe universe or Phoebus Krumm, but what is the difference between the Vesta situation and a Corpartion owned world ?

Clearly, Scott, Neil and I think a lot alike on the subject of freedom and its many enemies. We see common dangers, but evil has many masks. We are exploring some of them. Remember though, Mars is a corporation, of sorts, and it is very free. So the vital element must be something other than incorporation. Hmm.

By the way, in an upcoming arc we will discover how Mars, Inc. came to be.

Nice to see you back, Sams.

SandySandfort on September 09, 2011, 09:06:02 am
It seems like an interesting arc too, as indeed we can look forward to seeing some more questions of how AnCap is supposed to work answered.

There several arcs ahead of Vesta, both in the pipeline and under development, but I wanted to introduce the concept now. I have blocked out Vesta and know where it is going, but I still have to write it. I hope it will address your interest. However, I think it will be more about what doesn't work as opposed to how a market anarchy does work.

Oldhobo on September 09, 2011, 10:19:27 am
I am really hoping that the Vestans come to their senses, perhaps with a push from their neighbors.  I am already feeling sorry for them, dumb boobs.  As I write this, I am betting that there is a lot more to the story.  I bet that 'vote of confidence' was not a general election and I am also willing to bet that next to no one knew there was a problem with the water until someone from Massachusetts declared a 'crisis.'  I hope that when the new admin gets to Vesta, it is like spit hitting a grease fire.

Killydd on September 09, 2011, 11:56:48 am
On the other hand, I can see this problem developing on its own.  A few miners start cutting costs and selling low-grade ice.  To compete, maybe a few more do.  Then suddenly people start associating this low-quality material with where it's from, not specifically who is selling it.  Now there's a bunch of interested citizens selling high-quality ice but associated in the minds of customers with low-grade ice.  In an ancap world, how would they try to prove to people that they are still selling a quality product that's worth the extra price?

mellyrn on September 09, 2011, 01:03:29 pm
Quote
In an ancap world, how would they try to prove to people that they are still selling a quality product that's worth the extra price?

??  What's AnCap got to do with it, one way or another?  The existence of Aquafina hasn't hurt Deer Park, afaik.  The existence of dollar-a-loaf fluffy-styrofoam "bread" hasn't put local bakeries out of business.

Produce your high-quality ice.  Advertise your superior quality.  Price accordingly.

Tucci78 on September 09, 2011, 02:29:41 pm
As a method of protection, creating government is on a par with tossing a fluffy blanket over your head and singing the Smurf song as loudly as you can.  You still get mugged but you can neither see nor hear your mugger.  Since you believe the blanket does protect you, you can only think, Cheez! If it's this bad with the blanket, it must be ever so much worse without it!  So, too, government:  when your elected/appointed/anointed neighbors rob you, cheat you, renege on their promises to you, send you off to commit crimes you would never have committed otherwise, you can neither see nor hear this as being crimes against you. 

You are not in fact any safer.  John Smith is just as likely to be a liar/cheater/thief/killer as "Senator" Smith or "Officer" Smith as he is as just plain "Citizen" Smith -- but you hallucinate that his having a title makes you safer, as if being in office magically changes his nature from "normal cussed human goat" to "semidivine border collie". 

Pointing out the arbitrary ruthlessness of the whims of warlords in, say, Somalia only means you don't see the arbitrary ruthlessness of your government agents acting on their whims in defiance of all the laws they've passed.  You're getting mugged just the same but it doesn't "count" 'cos it's being done by The Elect(ed).

God damn. That is definitely quotable.

mellyrn, do you perchance have your own Web log?
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Pavitra on September 09, 2011, 02:35:14 pm
Does this mean we're going to have a serious examination of the drawbacks of market anarchism and some possible solutions to those problems?

Probably too much to hope for. This is a morality play, not a political discourse.

SandySandfort on September 09, 2011, 03:13:28 pm
Does this mean we're going to have a serious examination of the drawbacks of market anarchism and some possible solutions to those problems?

Nobody is stopping you. If you see drawbacks of market anarchism, have at it. It has been going on since the beginning of this Forum.

Here's a bit of friendly advise, though. Know what you are criticizing. Most of the anti-freedom posters here criticize what they assume market anarchy to be or what one of their buddies told them it is. If you read original sources and then find problems, please let us know whilst quoting chapter and verse. That, I'm sure, will put us pro-freedom dunces in our place.  ::)

Probably too much to hope for. This is a morality play, not a political discourse.

I'm not sure what "this" is (this Forum, EFT, life?), but I see nothing wrong with entertainment that also educates. YMMV

dough560 on September 09, 2011, 04:49:34 pm
The Smurf analogy is pretty good.  People at work will get a kick out of it.

As explained, the situation is too simplistic.  Sounds like a group of immigrants initiated a government (constitution?) upon the existing population.  If said population was multi-generational  sovereign individuals, I don't see how.  On the other hand, if the population was made up of relatively recent immigrants, a slick public relations campaign could have started the dance.  Kind of makes me think the UW is at it again.  Having learned from their mistakes, they are feeding the public a slice of baloney at a time, instead of cramming a whole loaf down their throats.

Guy's evident surprise at the situation is interesting.  Using truck drivers as an example:  People who spend a lot of time alone or with a small social group tend to be very chatty when they get with others.  Stupidity, especially Governmental Stupidity is always a favorite subject.  I'd be very surprised the rise of government, in what has been sovereign territory would not make the news feeds.  The rumor mills would have been even faster.

Arrogant and ignorant.  Let them run their mouths.  You'll get more information than you can use.

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on September 09, 2011, 04:53:52 pm
Nice pop culture reference on today comic page, but would be even more fun to have immigrants come from Vermont  ;D

So here is the question : When does a Market organization become a government ?

There is one and only one difference. I'd like to hear what you and the the other Forum members think that is.

When the power to coerce a third party is granted to any individual or group, then government has formed.