SandySandfort on May 27, 2011, 05:33:06 pm
Admission time. I am an identical twin. It gives me a perspective on cloning, thanks, already got one.

I am also.
...
My solution to somebody who has only sex to offer is "walk away."  Maybe not all guys are like that.  But then, a lot of guys act like they want to go on the Jerry Springer Show, too...

"A lot" is a relative term. In absolute terms, sure Jerry never had any problem getting guests. However, as a percentage of the population, my guess is that only a tiny minority want to fuck their sister. For example, on this Forum, only sam has expressed any interest in the subject. Hmm.

J Thomas on May 27, 2011, 07:35:53 pm
You have presented yourself as an authority that I should believe. I don't believe anybody in the world has enough data to justify the certainty you claim.

There you go again, making shit up. If you believe I have presented myself as an authority, please cite where I said any such thing. What certainty did I claim? Please cite where I said any such thing.

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When I contemplated going into a business based on pheromonal attraction, I read all the literature I could get my hands on. I also was in touch with leaders in the field. Since you have, at best, only done a once over lightly,

You did not provide evidence to support your claims. You claimed that you knew what you were talking about, and I did not.

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What certainty did I claim? Please cite where I said any such thing.

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Pheromones allow us to read out other peoples HLA, the genes that make up our immunological system. It is important to not be attracted to your sister, for basic genetic health. So similar HLA, means that not only will there be no mutual attraction, but if they are similar enough, a persons very proximity can cause disgust and antipathy.

.... People do not find people with very similar (virtually identical, in the case of a clone) attractive. ....

Now, if you really wanted your clone to not find you disgusting, you could destroy both of your VNOs, the organ that perceives pheromones. Then their would be no icky, but there would be no pheromonal attraction either.

This looks to me like strong claims. "no mutual attraction" where the scientific data I've seen describes a mild preference. The only way to avoid disgust is to destroy the organ that perceives the pheromones.

We have already established that HLA perceptions would not be enough to stop incest, and in fact we know that they do not, since incest exists. A quarter of the time brothers and sisters will have no HLA similarity, though apart from chromosome 6 they will share half their genes. The similarity goes down for half-siblings, and down further for cousins. What it can do is reduce the likelihood of homozygous HLA genes which is worth a good deal.

This is definitely not an absolute bar, though, as note the existence of inbred mouse strains. Several inbred mouse strains have been observed to prefer to mate with mice that have different MHC genes, though they will mate with same MHC when their preference is not available. One inbred mouse strain was observed to prefer same MHC genes.

From what I have seen so far, your certainty about "no mutual attraction" goes beyond the evidence. But I could be convinced with proof, beyond your claim that you know from your deep study of the topic, and I don't.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 07:43:03 pm by J Thomas »

SandySandfort on May 27, 2011, 08:43:43 pm
Again, when did I claim to be an authority? Just stating the results of the research I have studied, is not a a claim to authority. But you like it your way, so I am going to let you quack on. I have stories to write and business to do.  Enjoy your mental masturbation.

You have presented yourself as an authority that I should believe. I don't believe anybody in the world has enough data to justify the certainty you claim.

There you go again, making shit up. If you believe I have presented myself as an authority, please cite where I said any such thing. What certainty did I claim? Please cite where I said any such thing.

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When I contemplated going into a business based on pheromonal attraction, I read all the literature I could get my hands on. I also was in touch with leaders in the field. Since you have, at best, only done a once over lightly,

You did not provide evidence to support your claims. You claimed that you knew what you were talking about, and I did not.

Quote
What certainty did I claim? Please cite where I said any such thing.

Quote
Pheromones allow us to read out other peoples HLA, the genes that make up our immunological system. It is important to not be attracted to your sister, for basic genetic health. So similar HLA, means that not only will there be no mutual attraction, but if they are similar enough, a persons very proximity can cause disgust and antipathy.

.... People do not find people with very similar (virtually identical, in the case of a clone) attractive. ....

Now, if you really wanted your clone to not find you disgusting, you could destroy both of your VNOs, the organ that perceives pheromones. Then their would be no icky, but there would be no pheromonal attraction either.

This looks to me like strong claims. "no mutual attraction" where the scientific data I've seen describes a mild preference. The only way to avoid disgust is to destroy the organ that perceives the pheromones.

We have already established that HLA perceptions would not be enough to stop incest, and in fact we know that they do not, since incest exists. A quarter of the time brothers and sisters will have no HLA similarity, though apart from chromosome 6 they will share half their genes. The similarity goes down for half-siblings, and down further for cousins. What it can do is reduce the likelihood of homozygous HLA genes which is worth a good deal.

This is definitely not an absolute bar, though, as note the existence of inbred mouse strains. Several inbred mouse strains have been observed to prefer to mate with mice that have different MHC genes, though they will mate with same MHC when their preference is not available. One inbred mouse strain was observed to prefer same MHC genes.

From what I have seen so far, your certainty about "no mutual attraction" goes beyond the evidence. But I could be convinced with proof, beyond your claim that you know from your deep study of the topic, and I don't.


sam on May 28, 2011, 03:53:34 am
"A lot" is a relative term. In absolute terms, sure Jerry never had any problem getting guests. However, as a percentage of the population, my guess is that only a tiny minority want to frack their sister.

The relevant effect is that kids that grow up together do not like to have sex with each other.  If a brother and sister, or father and daughter, are separated during the critical period, they will fuck like weasels.

Sandy seems to believe that people are naturally virtuous, so do not need to be governed.  I think they are naturally wicked, so cannot be trusted to govern others.

J Thomas on May 28, 2011, 05:25:39 am
Again, when did I claim to be an authority? Just stating the results of the research I have studied, is not a a claim to authority.

You claimed that you had thoroughly studied the literature and that I had not, and that you were right.

But OK, I will accept your interpretation -- you do not after all claim you know.

I'll let it drop too. This is a complicated topic where it's hard to separate the science from the pop science, and hard to be sure how to extrapolate from the data to the questions we'd like to answer. And after we do so, all it gets us is an estimate whether Sam's peculiar idea is impossible without a second genetic engineering trick, or maybe possible.

J Thomas on May 28, 2011, 05:36:11 am
"A lot" is a relative term. In absolute terms, sure Jerry never had any problem getting guests. However, as a percentage of the population, my guess is that only a tiny minority want to frack their sister.

The relevant effect is that kids that grow up together do not like to have sex with each other.

There's some evidence for that.

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If a brother and sister, or father and daughter, are separated during the critical period, they will frack like weasels.

There is less evidence for this. There are a few examples. But I don't follow Jerry Springer -- I would expect he would have examples of relatives raised together who commit incest. Is that true? If so it would say that whatever genetic or cultural mechanism is involved here is not 100% efficient. If it's 99.99% efficient that would leave plenty to go on TV. Also people might lie to get on Jerry Springer....

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Sandy seems to believe that people are naturally virtuous, so do not need to be governed.  I think they are naturally wicked, so cannot be trusted to govern others.

If people are naturally cooperative then perhaps they can form governments with little harm. If they are naturally uncooperative then it becomes difficult for them to coordinate to prevent governments.

Do we have governments with little harm? I don't think so. Leaving....

quadibloc on May 28, 2011, 02:08:48 pm
Sandy seems to believe that people are naturally virtuous, so do not need to be governed.  I think they are naturally wicked, so cannot be trusted to govern others.
I think that most people, most of the time, are "virtuous" by nature - that is, they're willing to leave others alone, and earn their own living by honest work instead of stealing.

But I also think that there will always be enough people who are wicked, and those few will cause damage out of all proportion to their numbers, that a way will be needed to deal with them. That can be self-defense, it doesn't have to be government.

But, furthermore, I also think that even though most people are virtuous, this doesn't make them saintly. If people can support themselves reasonably well through a reasonable amount of work, they'll be honest. If, on the other hand, it takes long hours of hard work to barely survive, a lot of people won't turn up their noses at stealing.

And I think that situation can arise for plain old Malthusian reasons - not having been artificially created in the first instance by evil rulers. Population versus resources. Technology certainly can greatly increase the resources available, or the number of people a given set of resources can support. But technology doesn't come when you wish for it - it has to be developed, and it doesn't always arrive as soon as when it's needed.

When things get bad, demagogues have the opportunity to pop up and make them worse.

In the English-speaking world, at least, World War II and the Cold War have taught people to be very suspicious of the classic style of demagogue. I don't say that this protects them against other erosions of their freedom - and it may well be that there are exceptions to the rule that the American people know a nutcase when they see one, and that one such exception is just about to be exploited.

sam on May 28, 2011, 05:41:06 pm
In the English-speaking world, at least, World War II and the Cold War have taught people to be very suspicious of the classic style of demagogue.

If so, they are badly mistaken.  Hitler was not "the classic style of demagogue".  HIs indictments against the Jews and foreigners are minor and frivolous stuff.  What got the Germans pissed with Jews and foreigners is that the mainstream parties blamed Jews and foreigners for hyperinflation.  Of course Hitler knew perfectly well that hyperinflation was not caused by Jews, but caused by paying people not to work, or to do makework, with money the government did not have, and he would sometimes say so - though not very loudly.

When the mainstream parties blamed outsiders for the crisis, people naturally thought "Why are you so weak that you let outsiders do this to us and yourselves?  We need someone tougher".  And Hitler, anticipating this, had already politically positioned himself as the toughest of them all.

Observe the mainstream parties, both of them, blaming de-regulation for the current crisis, not withstanding the fact that in the lead up to the crisis, the government issued numerous white papeers cajoling and threatening the banks to lower their credit standards.  Supposedly old fashioned credit standards were racist and irrational.

When the crisis worsens, both parties will piously announce themselves powerless before the dreadfully powerful markets, whereupon the masses will probably vote for someone who promises to take those dreadful white racist markets out and shoot them - which is not far from how they are voting now in California.

J Thomas on May 29, 2011, 06:46:02 am

Observe the mainstream parties, both of them, blaming de-regulation for the current crisis, not withstanding the fact that in the lead up to the crisis, the government issued numerous white papeers cajoling and threatening the banks to lower their credit standards.  Supposedly old fashioned credit standards were racist and irrational.

When the crisis worsens, both parties will piously announce themselves powerless before the dreadfully powerful markets, whereupon the masses will probably vote for someone who promises to take those dreadful white racist markets out and shoot them - which is not far from how they are voting now in California.

I can imagine a dreadful plausibility about this.

Of course the details might vary. We might for example instead propose some sort of war against the foreigners that were allowed to manipulate our markets for their own benefit.  Free markets are best, but when the US government tried to stay completely hands-off it only allowed foreign governments to intervene in ways that hurt us.

Or we could have a great big internal conflict between the ones who want to shoot the market, the ones who want to shoot the government, and the ones who want to shoot the foreigners.

And when people have very strong feelings about such things, the natural result is that instead of shooting markets or government or foreigners, they shoot each other.

enemyofthestate on June 05, 2011, 10:42:38 pm
Why bother with all the trouble of raising and training a clone?  Why not just have a cyborg made with the requisite characteristics and programming?  With a biocybernetic interface (which the Cereans appear to already have), the body could be mostly organic but the "mind" not even resident.  Just an interface module with basic self maintenace routines and a link to a controller with the requisite personality.  Heck, an owner -- or a house -- could have hundreds of different behavioral programs on call.

"Good evening Mr. Prevert.  How may we serve you today?"

"Well, HAL, tonight I want the nine-year-old Babbette model with the number seventeen oral-submissive personality."

There are some problems inherent in that solution but they look like a lot less of a mess than a hacked together clone.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 12:46:25 am by enemyofthestate »

mellyrn on June 06, 2011, 06:41:46 am
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There are some problems inherent in that solution

Like GPP.

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Um ... what's GPP?

Genuine People Personalities.  I'm a personality prototype.  You can tell, can't you.

dough560 on July 06, 2011, 01:27:47 am
Anyone have a translation? Are the links legit or just direct you to sales sights?  This is getting old.

 

anything