Holt on April 23, 2011, 12:07:38 pm
I agree.

Solution A: Ed gets Rhonda fired up enough to do something stupid. Maybe Ed could tell her that their conversation had been recorded. She would demand the recording and he would demand to talk to the girl to make sure that she was all right. He would record that conversation, and voila! evidence.

Solution B: Guy is involved in some way. He knows the UW best and is aware of what they are capable of. He would have the smarts to record the conversation in the first place or keep track of all the UW team members. I doubt that Rhonda can be certain that all the cameras were pointing the other way.

Solution C: Guy can finally use that UW bugged communicator to communicate a false message, communicate with Chang, something. Then Chang would stop it.

Solution D: Guy would be the one to kick the hell out of the UW troop. They would record that, then, when they release the girl, he would inform them that he is from the UW, thereby ruining the message the UW needs.

Or Solution E: Chang says "Fuck you bitch you're under arrest for breaking the law"

wdg3rd on April 23, 2011, 12:55:56 pm
Food. Organic compounds. These are going to be the things that Ceres has to import. Barring handwavium magic there is no way Ceres can be self sufficient in terms of feeding itself.
No handwavium is required.

If the spectroscopic evidence is correct, there are plenty of hydrocarbons and volatiles in the Belt.  Folks who follow space science for real have known since the 1994 Clementine mission that bodies without a significant atmosphere can still harbor large quantities of frozen H2O.   According to data from NEAR Shoemaker even a small asteroid like 433 Eros can have water frozen in the surface fractures.  Given water, hydrocarbons and volatiles, food crops can be grown either hydroponically or in a mixture of soil made from asteroid material and composted organic waste.  The available evidence does not support any assertion the Cereans cannot feed themselves.

As far as I can figure, the only foods the Cerereans would need to import would be luxury goods.  After all, the only good truffles come from France and the best beef comes from Texas, and there is no way to duplicate those flavors elsewhere on Earth, let alone in the far reaches of space.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

SandySandfort on April 23, 2011, 01:51:15 pm
More excellent analysis from another person who is paying attention and actually knows something about science. Only the ignoramuses (we all know who they are) need to read a book and get a clue.  ::)

The space craft as described do have some magical properties...

Maybe. The "burners" derive their energy from fusion as do household power units. Here is what my notes say:

"Fusion Power (desktop)—The UW outlaws any sort of atomic power on Earth, except for large centralized fusion plants run by the government. Off Earth, fusion power units are small and run homes, cars, burners, etc. The units produce electricity via an aneutronic fusion reaction using helium-3 and deuterium as fuel and bismuth as a fusion catalyst."

My recollection is that none of the three materials are radioactive and that they produce no residual radiation during fusion. All the helium-3 and deuterium one could ever want, can be found ... where? (Consider this an exercise for the student.)  ;D

J Thomas on April 23, 2011, 02:47:10 pm
Food. Organic compounds. These are going to be the things that Ceres has to import. Barring handwavium magic there is no way Ceres can be self sufficient in terms of feeding itself.

If the spectroscopic evidence is correct, there are plenty of hydrocarbons and volatiles in the Belt.  Folks who follow space science for real have known since the 1994 Clementine mission that bodies without a significant atmosphere can still harbor large quantities of frozen H2O.   According to data from NEAR Shoemaker even a small asteroid like 433 Eros can have water frozen in the surface fractures.  Given water, hydrocarbons and volatiles, food crops can be grown either hydroponically or in a mixture of soil made from asteroid material and composted organic waste.  The available evidence does not support any assertion the Cereans cannot feed themselves.

I basicly agree. All the mass used for food can be infinitely recycled, not counting things which are lost to space. As the population grows you'd need to add mass, but that isn't any big deal unless the population grows *fast*.

Still, there would be something that plants or animals need that would be in shortest supply. And whatever that is, it might be useful to import it from Terra. Maybe the top two or three rarest items might get imported from Terra. Easier to import those than to extract them from many ton of dross. But likely possible to get them without imports too.

Holt on April 23, 2011, 03:12:13 pm
basicly agree. All the mass used for food can be infinitely recycled, not counting things which are lost to space. As the population grows you'd need to add mass, but that isn't any big deal unless the population grows *fast*.

Recycled for infinity?
Entropy doesn't factor into the anarchist worldview huh?

Bob G on April 23, 2011, 04:36:47 pm
basicly agree. All the mass used for food can be infinitely recycled, not counting things which are lost to space. As the population grows you'd need to add mass, but that isn't any big deal unless the population grows *fast*.

Recycled for infinity?
Entropy doesn't factor into the anarchist worldview huh?

There's the old Holt I know . . . not reading the whole post (" . . . not counting things which are lost to space . . .") and going off on a tangent.
Whatsoever, for any cause, seeketh to take or give
  Power above or beyond the Laws, suffer it not to live.
Holy State, or Holy King, or Holy People's Will.
  Have no truck with the senseless thing, order the guns and kill.

The penultimate stanza of Rudyard Kipling's MacDonough's Song

Holt on April 23, 2011, 05:01:20 pm
basicly agree. All the mass used for food can be infinitely recycled, not counting things which are lost to space. As the population grows you'd need to add mass, but that isn't any big deal unless the population grows *fast*.

Recycled for infinity?
Entropy doesn't factor into the anarchist worldview huh?

There's the old Holt I know . . . not reading the whole post (" . . . not counting things which are lost to space . . .") and going off on a tangent.

That doesn't really fall under the "lost to space category"

quadibloc on April 24, 2011, 07:15:54 am
Or Solution E: Chang says "frack you bitch you're under arrest for breaking the law"
Presumably, for all the claims that the UW is really a "democracy", not all that different from the United States at present, just gone a little further down the slope... that would work just about as well as an official in mainland China attempting to enforce the written law against the will of the Communist leadership.

It might end the immediate threat, since Chang holds command, but once back on Earth, Chang is shot and Rhonda is exonerated. And the UW then tries something else.

Holt on April 24, 2011, 07:21:32 am
Or Solution E: Chang says "frack you bitch you're under arrest for breaking the law"
Presumably, for all the claims that the UW is really a "democracy", not all that different from the United States at present, just gone a little further down the slope... that would work just about as well as an official in mainland China attempting to enforce the written law against the will of the Communist leadership.

It might end the immediate threat, since Chang holds command, but once back on Earth, Chang is shot and Rhonda is exonerated. And the UW then tries something else.

Depends how public he makes it. Plus he can simply report it as a horrible traffic accident. "Oh twas horrible sir she and twelve of my men were in a vehicle and they lost control. All of them died"

J Thomas on April 24, 2011, 07:49:33 am
Or Solution E: Chang says "frack you bitch you're under arrest for breaking the law"
Presumably, for all the claims that the UW is really a "democracy", not all that different from the United States at present, just gone a little further down the slope... that would work just about as well as an official in mainland China attempting to enforce the written law against the will of the Communist leadership.

It might end the immediate threat, since Chang holds command, but once back on Earth, Chang is shot and Rhonda is exonerated. And the UW then tries something else.

Depends how public he makes it. Plus he can simply report it as a horrible traffic accident. "Oh twas horrible sir she and twelve of my men were in a vehicle and they lost control. All of them died"

But aren't they being constantly monitored by their superiors by tanglenet? If there's an issue then somebody looks at the files and finds out.

GlennWatson on April 24, 2011, 08:51:44 am
I imagine Chang could arrest the Black Mamba and then just forget to return to Earth.  We have seen this happen before in the strip.  Many of his men might follow his example.  They could perhaps start their own little colony.

Holt on April 24, 2011, 09:01:40 am

But aren't they being constantly monitored by their superiors by tanglenet? If there's an issue then somebody looks at the files and finds out.


It's unlikely they're all fitted with cameras and bugs purely because trawling that data would be too expensive and time consuming. No they will file reports which will be stored and cataloged automatically for ease of searching. The only file they will have in regards to her death and the deaths of her goon squad are Changs and the company medics. There's no coroner or anything on hand and they could easily claim the accident made the bodies irretrievable.

J Thomas on April 24, 2011, 09:17:18 am

But aren't they being constantly monitored by their superiors by tanglenet? If there's an issue then somebody looks at the files and finds out.


It's unlikely they're all fitted with cameras and bugs purely because trawling that data would be too expensive and time consuming. No they will file reports which will be stored and cataloged automatically for ease of searching.

Why not file and catalog the camera data, and trawl it later only if there's reason to think it would be interesting? That's what we do with lots of our satellite photos, after all. We have computer recognition stuff that looks for specific things -- tanks etc -- and people look at the hits if they care to, and eyeball older stuff only if they need to understand what happened.

Holt on April 24, 2011, 09:28:04 am

But aren't they being constantly monitored by their superiors by tanglenet? If there's an issue then somebody looks at the files and finds out.


It's unlikely they're all fitted with cameras and bugs purely because trawling that data would be too expensive and time consuming. No they will file reports which will be stored and cataloged automatically for ease of searching.

Why not file and catalog the camera data, and trawl it later only if there's reason to think it would be interesting? That's what we do with lots of our satellite photos, after all. We have computer recognition stuff that looks for specific things -- tanks etc -- and people look at the hits if they care to, and eyeball older stuff only if they need to understand what happened.


Because theres a world of difference between satellite camera data and manheld camera data. Plus satellite data has to be eyeballed to confirm anything. All the automatic sorting that is done is what region the shot is which makes things a lot easier. "I think region X has something in it." "Ok lets pull up the sat footage of region X" "Oh look there is something there but what is it?" "Oh I don't know lets send it to some specialists to enhance the image and find out. Expect results in a week or two"

All you would really be able to do with the soldiers bug footage is stamp a time index. Plus that would be a shitload of information to be constantly sending.

J Thomas on April 24, 2011, 10:00:59 am

But aren't they being constantly monitored by their superiors by tanglenet? If there's an issue then somebody looks at the files and finds out.


It's unlikely they're all fitted with cameras and bugs purely because trawling that data would be too expensive and time consuming. No they will file reports which will be stored and cataloged automatically for ease of searching.

Why not file and catalog the camera data, and trawl it later only if there's reason to think it would be interesting? That's what we do with lots of our satellite photos, after all. We have computer recognition stuff that looks for specific things -- tanks etc -- and people look at the hits if they care to, and eyeball older stuff only if they need to understand what happened.


Because theres a world of difference between satellite camera data and manheld camera data. Plus satellite data has to be eyeballed to confirm anything. All the automatic sorting that is done is what region the shot is which makes things a lot easier. "I think region X has something in it." "Ok lets pull up the sat footage of region X" "Oh look there is something there but what is it?" "Oh I don't know lets send it to some specialists to enhance the image and find out. Expect results in a week or two"

That isn't what they really do.

Quote
All you would really be able to do with the soldiers bug footage is stamp a time index. Plus that would be a shitload of information to be constantly sending.

It's tanglenet. No problem about sending lots of info. And it's only, what? a couple hundred soldiers? You look at it particularly when different reports conflict, or -- say -- when somebody dies. It's no difficulty at all to look at the last 20 minutes before their telemetry reports no heartbeat, and then track back from there.

 

anything