SandySandfort on April 22, 2011, 12:22:56 pm
Excellent Analysis!

As to pedophilia, it is a fact in every culture, everywhere, throughout time. No doubt, it would also exist in the Belt and throughout the solar system.

Having said that, in the Belt kids can arm themselves and they can "divorce" their parents anytime they can make it stick if they desire to do so.

Essentially every modern culture strongly disapproves of the practice. Belters would probably disapprove also. And probably more so, on the basis of personal ownership and the ZAP. If the sexual contact with the "pre-majority" woman or man were not voluntary, it would violate the ZAP, big time. Remember, the ZAP not only recognizes self-defense, but defense of another...

As I understand it, the UW is looking to take over the belt without breaking it (in their opinion) so as they can tax the heck out if it in order to delay their financial meltdown.  Towards this end, they are looking to manufacture an incident that they can use for propaganda purposes back home.  My question is, why manufacture something outrageous to the average UW prole at all?  Just find some aspect of an ancap society that the average UW prole would find outrageous, and work from there.   In keeping with the 'Pedo Strike' subject line, I would suggest just finding the Cerean pedophile subculture*, and going from there along the "its not ilegal on Ceres" line, and then toward the "we have to intervene to protect the children" route.


*Given that we have people here and now who practice pedophila despite laws against it and severe punishments if they are caught, I would find it difficult to believe that Ceres has none.    And before anyone says that the parents of the children involved would be aggreived by a pedophile's attentions towards their offspring, and thus seek mediation on their child's behalf, keep in mind that :

1) There is probably good money to be made renting one's child out to a pedophile, and not all people are scrupulous or moral about how they make money.
2) The parents themselves may be pedophiles, either directly abusing their own children, or as part of a subculture that swaps its children among themselves.  If the parent/guardian of a pre-emancipated (chattel) child deems that there is no harm, and the child is unwilling/unable to declare its emancipation, then what standing would another Cerean have for intervening?

Holt on April 22, 2011, 12:33:58 pm
I wager there would be rampant child molestation. After all nothing to stop some guys picking up the kids who run away from home and pimping them out. If they can pull it off when there's a lot of people whose job is to try and stop them. They can certainly pull it off when nobody cares.

Aardvark on April 22, 2011, 12:35:20 pm
About the Cerereans are pedophiles strategy:

Sandy could address this better than I could because its his universe, but I can think of three reasons why that might not work very well:

It's not graphic enough. Stating that something like that would be legal under some conditions (and I have no idea how the Cerereans and Belters would handle it) is not the same as showing it. Kicking a man on the ground is a strong visual display, and is what put a couple of L.A. cops behind bars for the Rodney King incident. Everyone knows what NAMBLA wants and does, but they aren't thrown in jail unless there's hard evidence.

Ceres has a highly limiting feature, guns at an early age. When a ten year-old has a gun and is liable to use it, pedophiles, I imagine, would think more than twice about indulging in a little forced January - June romance.

I'm not at all sure that the UW would have a good track record to compare to the Cerereans and Belters. Dictators tend to concentrate on keeping themselves in power and less on protecting the hoi polloi, and with power comes a sense of superiority; many of those who rule might well have unsavory appetites of their own.

Tucci78 on April 22, 2011, 12:36:07 pm
And lunatics are convinced that the royal family are evil space lizards who drink human blood.

Jeez, you mean they're not and they don't?  So what accounts for all those blood bank deliveries in the dead of night? 

I'd always heard that they're especially fond of diabetics.  A couple of 'em have a sweet tooth. 
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Aardvark on April 22, 2011, 12:44:38 pm
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And lunatics are convinced that the royal family are evil space lizards who drink human blood.

That's absurd. They are evil space lizards, but everyone knows they swallow rodents whole. I saw it all on "V," and I don't know why someone doesn't do something about it.

Holt on April 22, 2011, 12:51:09 pm
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And lunatics are convinced that the royal family are evil space lizards who drink human blood.

That's absurd. They are evil space lizards, but everyone knows they swallow rodents whole. I saw it all on "V," and I don't know why someone doesn't do something about it.

No they're not evil space lizards. They're German. For fucks sake people I can understand the confusion but come on.  ;)

Tucci78 on April 22, 2011, 01:01:07 pm
As to pedophilia, it is a fact in every culture, everywhere, throughout time. No doubt, it would also exist in the Belt and throughout the solar system.

Having said that, in the Belt kids can arm themselves and they can "divorce" their parents anytime they can make it stick if they desire to do so.

Essentially every modern culture strongly disapproves of the practice. Belters would probably disapprove also. And probably more so, on the basis of personal ownership and the ZAP. If the sexual contact with the "pre-majority" woman or man were not voluntary, it would violate the ZAP, big time. Remember, the ZAP not only recognizes self-defense, but defense of another...

If it's understood that "in the Belt kids can arm themselves and they can 'divorce' their parents anytime they can make it stick", then the definition of pedophilia as assumed by the discussants in this exchange has got to be considered invalid.  

To the extent that we consider pedophilia as a pathology - a paraphilia not only without reproductive function but objectively demonstrably pernicious in its effects - it is profoundly wrong to speak of adolescents and preadolescents voluntarily involving themselves in sexual activities with adults as "pedophilia," particularly if there is recognition that it is morally correct for them to exercise the ability to arm themselves and to remove themselves from adult control by "divorcing" their parents.

The defense of another human being suffering the aggressive violation of his/her rights is certainly consistent with the ZAP.  No problem.

But is the ZAP not undeniably breached when someone intervenes in another person's voluntary non-violent activities "for his/her own good"?
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Tucci78 on April 22, 2011, 01:08:51 pm
No they're not evil space lizards. They're German. For fracks sake people I can understand the confusion but come on. 


So how do you know that Germans aren't evil space lizards?
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Holt on April 22, 2011, 01:12:30 pm
So how do you know that Germans aren't evil space lizards?

The Germans are space nazis from the future. It's all insanely complicated. Pretty much Hitler and the Nazis went into space after WW2 and built a superpower civilisation out there but decided to repopulate Germany with their own people through time travel thus changing the history of the Earth to better suit them in the future seeing as it was their ancestral home. Didn't really work out.

Brugle on April 22, 2011, 01:50:26 pm
I wager there would be rampant child molestation.

Holt's posts have the highest concentration of psychological projection that I've ever seen.

sam on April 22, 2011, 02:21:54 pm
Essentially every modern culture strongly disapproves of the practice.

We only have one modern culture that disapproves of the practice, and the earliest age at which disapproval offically sets in has been rapidly rising.

Belters would probably disapprove also. And probably more so, on the basis of personal ownership and the ZAP. If the sexual contact with the "pre-majority" woman or man were not voluntary, it would violate the ZAP, big time. Remember, the ZAP not only recognizes self-defense, but defense of another...

Most heterosexual pedophilia is consensual.  Lots of pre puberty girls are fascinated by older males.  My nieces had to be frequently restrained, and sometimes I have been on the other end of that issue, I would be minding my own business at the beach or some place, a pre puberty girl starts chatting me up, and then her somewhat embarrassed father or elder brother shows up to haul her off.  In one case, a long way pre puberty.

Obviously, in an anarchy, the age of consent is a parental judgment.  If parents have a great deal of authority over even older children, the society will end up with the rule that a woman is virgin until marriage, and you need to ask dad's permission for the marriage, and if you don't, you are likely to get your balls cut off.  If, as in today's society, very little authority, the girls are going to start screwing at ten and sometimes earlier.   

In most past societies with little or no government, there has been no separate crime of pedophilia, rather the issue has been one of violation of parental authority. 

In past societies, with or without strong government, If there was not much restriction on adult females, there was also not much restriction on pre puberty females.  Our society is extraordinary, remarkable, and unique, in failing to restrict adult females while attempting to restrict younger females.  It is also extraordinary and unique in that it does not stigmatize bastardry.


Tucci78 on April 22, 2011, 03:39:39 pm
I wager there would be rampant child molestation. After all nothing to stop some guys picking up the kids who run away from home and pimping them out. If they can pull it off when there's a lot of people whose job is to try and stop them. They can certainly pull it off when nobody cares.

To the contrary. Given the conditions prevailing on Ceres and in the Belt as thus far described, there would be as much "child molestation" as there is violent rape - providing, of course, that we hew honestly to the definition of "molestation" as coerced sexual contact.

If there is market demand for the sexual services of children and adolescents of either gender there might well be pimping, but in what way does pimping breach the ZAP?  Let's draw upon Walter Block's Defending the Undefendable (1976): 

Quote
The function of the pimp qua pimp is that of a broker. In the same way as do brokers of real estate, insurance, stock market shares, investments, commodity futures, etc., the pimp serves the function of bringing together two parties to a transaction at less cost than it would take to bring them together without his good offices. Each party to a transaction served by a broker gains from the brokerage, otherwise they would not patronize him. And so it is in the case of the pimp. The customer is spared useless or wasteful waiting and searching time. It is easier to phone a pimp for an assignation with a prostitute than to spend time and effort searching one out. The customer also has the security of knowing that the prostitute comes recommended.

The prostitute benefits too. She gains the time that would otherwise be spent in searching for the customer. She is also protected by the pimp — from undesirable customers, and from policemen, part of whose profession, qua profession, is to prevent prostitutes from engaging in voluntary trade with consenting adults. Assignations arranged by the pimp afford the prostitute additional physical security over street walking or bar hopping.

The prostitute is no more exploited by the pimp than is the manufacturer exploited by the salesman who drums up business for him, or the actress who pays an agent a percentage of her earnings to find new roles for her. In these examples the employer, by means of the employee’s services, earns more than the cost of hiring the employee. If this were not so, the employer/employee relationship would not take place. The relationship of the prostitute to the pimp (employer to employee), contains the same mutual advantages.

The professional pimp performs the necessary function of brokering. In this performance he is if anything more honorable than many other brokers, such as banking, insurance, and the stock market. They rely on restrictive state and federal laws to discourage their competition, whereas the pimp can never use the law to safeguard his position.


It is reasonable to assume - though definitely not likely - that self-emancipated immature people in the Belt might find prostitution a better way to gain valuta than engaging in "honest work" (which we might as well define as labor that is difficult, boringly repetitious, intrinsically uninteresting, and/or otherwise noxious).  The brokering function of the Belter pimp in that light becomes valuable, as does the likelihood that in aggregating maintenance expenditures for a number of prostitutes (child and adult) the pimp provides cost efficiencies that sex workers would tend to find advantageous. 

I would think that child-adult sexual activity in the Belt would be conducted much more pour l'amour o pour le sport than for payment rendered, chiefly because the Belter economy must necessarily be extremely labor-poor when we consider that the absence of government regulation means that politically connected business interests cannot impair competing productive enterprises.  Combine that with the fact that in microgravity the brawn of an adult male is not necessary even for heavy construction, and it can be seen that even a child in the first decade of life should be able to get himself/herself a living without having to subject himself/herself to any arguable prostitutional indignities. 
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

quadibloc on April 22, 2011, 03:44:10 pm
It is reasonable to assume - though definitely not likely - that self-emancipated immature people in the Belt might find prostitution a better way to gain valuta than engaging in "honest work" (which we might as well define as labor that is difficult, boringly repetitious, intrinsically uninteresting, and/or otherwise noxious).
Here, I will interject with a damning indictment of our current statist system.

A 15-year-old girl who is running away from home because of sexual abuse is very likely to support herself in our present society through prostitution... because our helpful statist society prevents places like McDonalds from interfering with parental authority by hiring her.

Under an AnCap system, at least she would have an alternative.

Holt on April 22, 2011, 03:50:33 pm
To be fair child labour laws were put in place to make it possible for children to get an education rather than spending their childhoods working in the factories.

mellyrn on April 22, 2011, 03:58:57 pm
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To be fair child labour laws were put in place to make it possible for children to get an education rather than spending their childhoods working in the factories.

In another thread, months ago, I quoted a ~1913 survey of some 400 child factory workers, nearly all of whom preferred the factory to school, and a 1980s survey of some 8000 high school students who were asked whether they would choose school or work if they were paid for school at the same rate as their jobs and only 16 chose school.

I believe child labor laws were put in place to restrict the available workforce and keep wages up.  But "to protect the kiddies" plays so well, doesn't it?

 

anything