Holt on April 17, 2011, 12:58:21 pm
That was the most complicated analogy I have ever seen.

Second most complicated I've ever seen.

Please share the first.

I don't feel like typing it all out. It would take me at least an hour.

GlennWatson on April 17, 2011, 02:46:45 pm
That was the most complicated analogy I have ever seen.

Second most complicated I've ever seen.

Please share the first.

I don't feel like typing it all out. It would take me at least an hour.

Then I declare victory over you.

terry_freeman on April 17, 2011, 02:58:53 pm
Growth obsessed capitalism works on boom and bust. Problem is few people are interested in sustainable capitalism least of all anarchists because it limits their ability to accumulate wealth.

Holt, I see you still refuse to read about Austrian Business Cycle Theory, or to learn therefrom.

Ignorance is curable, but you have to want the cure.

Boom and bust are properties not of voluntary exchange, which is the essence of AnCap, but of fractional reserve banking and (more fundamentally) the creation of money out of nothing. Artificial inflation creates the boom, including mal-investments. The correction of the mal-investments is the bust part of the cycle.

J Thomas on April 17, 2011, 03:36:24 pm
Yes, but the real good times were from something like 1947 to 1970 or so.
Not counting segregation, lack if civil rights for Blacks, smoking, the Cold War, possible nuclear annihilation, polio, no Internet, I could go on and on.  The idea that we don’t live in a Golden Age anymore is just not born out by the facts.
The idea of a Golden Age is not an idea about facts.In a way, we are richer now because of the Internet than anybody was in 1967. Lots of things that you might not find with a long trip to the library are almost instantly available.

On the other hand there are various minor subtle points like "Will I have a job next month" which leave people feeling more precarious now than then.

I guess it's a trade off.

Holt on April 17, 2011, 03:56:35 pm
Growth obsessed capitalism works on boom and bust. Problem is few people are interested in sustainable capitalism least of all anarchists because it limits their ability to accumulate wealth.

Holt, I see you still refuse to read about Austrian Business Cycle Theory, or to learn therefrom.

Ignorance is curable, but you have to want the cure.

Boom and bust are properties not of voluntary exchange, which is the essence of AnCap, but of fractional reserve banking and (more fundamentally) the creation of money out of nothing. Artificial inflation creates the boom, including mal-investments. The correction of the mal-investments is the bust part of the cycle.


over complicating things in regards to currency is the main part of the problem. It actually doesn't matter what "school of business" or banking you think is the correct one.

quadibloc on April 17, 2011, 05:07:27 pm
a whole lot of families have only one computer to share among them all.
With cache and a pipeline... just like a four million dollar System/360 Model 195.

So here we are, with frozen food that used to be available only fresh from French chefs, and 250 channels on TV, and telephones with enough call blocking etc options that they can't follow the instruction manual,
Yes, in many ways we are rich these days.

The problem is, though, that while we have more toys, we don't have the kind of wealth that counts. The confidence of being able to send our kids to safe schools - the government used to pay for that; now, the ones it pays for aren't safe any more, at least not if you live where there are jobs in certain parts of the country.

So instead of looking at the toys and the gadgets, look at the census statistics on how many people are single and childless. Money is really important when the lack of it gets in the way of the things that really count in life, like love.

sam on April 17, 2011, 06:08:03 pm
 It is a better idea to look at the trends.

By some measures we peaked in the 1970s, by other measures, such a electricity per capita, we have peaked more recently.  Information technology continues to progress, but medicine is stagnating.  China continues to progress by all reasonable measures, but the west is in both relative and absolute decline.  It has been in relative decline since 1970, absolute decline recently.

The long term trends are moving up since the invention of the printing press.  They really accelerated with the Industrial Revolution.  Don't you agree that your life is better than your ancestors?  All of them.

Most of them, not all of them.  My parent's life was better.

The long term world trend is still upwards,  People are building taller buildings than ever before, but not in the west.  More people are getting cars, but in the west, the cars are humbler.

The most readily visible part of a civilization is cars and big buildings.  The US built its biggest building in 1970 or so.  Recently the two towers were taken down, and have not gone up again.  Obama says “let them drive Priuses”.  If the cool car is a Prius, people's lives are not better than their ancestors.  When the cool car was a corvette, people's lives were better.

sam on April 17, 2011, 06:20:35 pm
On another level, though, I acknowledge that government doesn't have magic powers to make land for housing near major cities, or oil, appear out of thin air. If the population grows, some resources will be in short supply.

If the population grows and land is getting shorter, buildings should be getting taller.  Buildings in the west are getting shorter.

We do not have a resource crunch on anything that it takes to produce electricity, yet electricity use per capita is stagnating.

people still have more than they used to at all levels,

Look at the cars. People in the west do not have more than they used to at all levels.

sam on April 17, 2011, 06:54:21 pm
Boom and bust are properties not of voluntary exchange, which is the essence of AnCap, but of fractional reserve banking and (more fundamentally) the creation of money out of nothing. Artificial inflation creates the boom, including mal-investments. The correction of the mal-investments is the bust part of the cycle.

The long depression is often pointed at as evidence against this theory.  On the other hand, despite the “cross of gold”, living standards and production were rising throughout the long depression, hence not even a recession by our standards.  The majority thought that mankind was not “being crucified on a cross of gold”.

Debtors, then as now, are always eager to find evidence that money should be debased, hence such evidence should not necessarily be taken at face value.  Government, then as now, was the largest debtor.

quadibloc on April 17, 2011, 08:19:47 pm
people still have more than they used to at all levels,

Look at the cars. People in the west do not have more than they used to at all levels.
I agree in the sense you're using the term. I meant they generally had more, materially, at all percentile levels, the poor as well as the rich, not that they had more wealth in all forms - as elsewhere I note that things like land and oil are in shorter supply.

dough560 on April 18, 2011, 01:41:45 am
You guys want to talk about money structures.  Start a thread dedicated to the subject.  Otherwise stop jamming what ever thread you're on.  Your arguments amount to a bunch of kids saying "You can't do that." or "That's not the way it is or could be, because I say it can't.  Your scenarios are childish, convoluted, long and showcase either ignorance or deliberate obstructionism.

You want a better life here in the U.S.? Or anywhere else for that matter?  Work to limit government and repeal the multiple layers of taxes individuals pay.  Work to simplify tax and legal codes.  Work for constitutional balanced budget requirements for all levels of government and eliminate the duplication of government agencies and services.

You can't discuss the thread subject?  Then don't write anything.  You want to refer to a thread in your propitiatory thread.  Go ahead.  Keep your comments where they belong.

quadibloc on April 18, 2011, 09:07:39 am
Speaking of the strip, Ed didn't get the chance to show of Ceres' littul kittons to Chang. Rhonda doesn't seem like the type to sit still for the grand tour, even if she would trust her ideological purity.

spudit on April 18, 2011, 10:26:39 am
Amen dough560

Look at the thread title people, then look at the postings. Something don't fit. We all wander off on occasion, I surely do, but we don't have to stay there.

I spent the weekend in the real world doing my damndest to make mine better then came back to 4 or 5 pages of blather having nothing to do with augmentaions and just a post or 2 about the strip at all.

And some may wonder why I pulled the plug on that other thread.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 10:43:46 am by spudit »
Vote Early and Vote Often
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GlennWatson on April 18, 2011, 10:21:49 pm
You guys want to talk about money structures.  Start a thread dedicated to the subject.  Otherwise stop jamming what ever thread you're on.  Your arguments amount to a bunch of kids saying "You can't do that." or "That's not the way it is or could be, because I say it can't.  Your scenarios are childish, convoluted, long and showcase either ignorance or deliberate obstructionism.

You want a better life here in the U.S.? Or anywhere else for that matter?  Work to limit government and repeal the multiple layers of taxes individuals pay.  Work to simplify tax and legal codes.  Work for constitutional balanced budget requirements for all levels of government and eliminate the duplication of government agencies and services.

You can't discuss the thread subject?  Then don't write anything.  You want to refer to a thread in your propitiatory thread.  Go ahead.  Keep your comments where they belong.

Its funny how you tell people to stay on topic and then go right off topic.

GlennWatson on April 18, 2011, 10:25:30 pm
Amen dough560

Look at the thread title people, then look at the postings. Something don't fit. We all wander off on occasion, I surely do, but we don't have to stay there.

I spent the weekend in the real world doing my damndest to make mine better then came back to 4 or 5 pages of blather having nothing to do with augmentaions and just a post or 2 about the strip at all.

And some may wonder why I pulled the plug on that other thread.

I don't wonder at all.  You lost control of something.  That angered yo.  you reacted by prevented others from enjoying themselves on a thread.  You justify this by telling yourself you are right and they are wrong. 

Just another example of why AnCap can't work.  To many people like yourself want to control others.

 

anything