spudit on April 28, 2011, 12:04:42 am
A question, are we confusing religion with philosophy? And what of national culture?

Most Mormons are Americans as are many Jews, world wide. Libertarian and Communist are political philosophies, far apart but both attract a disproportanate number of athiests.

People are complex. Though Ayn Rand was an athiest, she was born a Jew, lived in Lenin's Communist utopia, yet it despised her, was a champion of capitalisim but didn't invest much even in blue chips, the Libertarians love her, the commies and pinkos hate her, was born a Russian but died an American. Where would we put the poor woman?
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Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 12:30:59 am
You just explained my point, thank you.

Political philosophy is a poor spectrum, there are religious, personal, value system and cultural differences that all influence political philosophy. One persons view of force is different from another. Personally I think anyone willing to damage infrastructure in any way should be pre-emptively exiled or executed. Graffiti artists may simply be enslaved. The higher the correlation between 'damaged infrastructure' and 'immediate multiple death' the higher the penalty. You would still need to deal with professional assassins and demolitions people.

UW can take out all of Ceres with a single bomb. They can find some disgruntled person to lay the blame on (like the McKinley assassination)  while still achieving their real goals. If there are *rapid* immediate systems that can contain the damage, protect the air supply and save the station - who manages them? Who pays for their maintenance?

Let's go with the open air scenario we see in the comics. At best we're talking 100m between airlocks? Let's assume 5 airlocks with large partitions separating each area. Ok, that means 6 bombs are necessary to kill everyone. Then a UW ship is on the scene to "rescue survivors" and "claim salvage" - DONE. UW now OWNS Ceres, and charges taxes as they see fit. The majority of the original residents are dead or owe exorbitant fees to pay off the debt of rescue the UW levees against them. Why can't Ceres ship owners do the same thing? Standard tactic would simply be one of timing, but it is easy to hire away the ships capable for long range tasks.

What if there are multiple ports? Well "in the confusion" there was an "unfortunate collision" that took out any competing ports. From what we've seen of the UW, there isn't the hardware available on any ship to cover the seal - it is simply a question of salvage. The best ship type available would likely be a ship large enough to have a hanger and fuel/maintenance for other ships.

Now to answer your question, Ayn Rand would pick her city based on ideology, but she couldn't ride any ship powered by fission or fusion because she doesn't believe in it.

sam on April 28, 2011, 12:44:31 am
A legal regime under which it is preferred that terrorists carry out their acts than that anyone should rock the boat by trying to stop them... that is what I think is bad. And it seems like that is what some people want.

I don't understand that. I say, if you or a government agent or anybody think somebody is a terrorist then you should do whatever you think necessary to stop him. If you think it's necessary then kidnap him at gunpoint, chain him up in your basement, and torture him to get information.

The fact is, however, that Al Quaeda was allowed to do 9/11, despite lots of red flags that should have provoked action.  Every person that should have acted to stop them was cross examined on his failure to act, and each of the many people that failed to act pointed out that acting would have been illegal.  It is "racist" to stop a terrorist before he has exploded himself.  Just ask anyone murdered by Major Hasan after he gave his power point presentation on why he was going to murder his audience.

Much as it is still illegal this day for airport security to give special examination to a young man dressed martyr garb crying "god is great" unless they also feel up the genitals of six year old girls.

Not only were the laws and procedures too restrictive, they still are too restrictive, as demonstrated by the murders committed by Major Hasan after his power point presentation on why he was going to commit mass murder.

We really need to go further, a lot further, in legalizing killing people on the basis that they need killing.

It is asking to much to ask people to act heroicly, if the heroism is that do-gooders will lock up the guy that saved the day.

Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 12:47:24 am
The fact is, however, that Al Quaeda was allowed to do 9/11, despite lots of red flags that should have provoked action.  Every person that should have acted to stop them was cross examined on his failure to act, and each of the many people that failed to act pointed out that acting would have been illegal. 
Are you saying the living hijackers boarded two US Military Drone jets and flew them into the Twin Towers, then somehow escaped the US Drone Jets and fled the country or are you simply that blind and uninformed to believe the "official story" and never actually LOOKED at the collision?

spudit on April 28, 2011, 12:56:12 am
Rorschach The last bit seems odd to me but OK if you say so. Does believe mean recognize as real or see as worthwhile. I know flying bothered her.

I wonder if she and Azimov ever met, 2 former Russians, big time writers, living in New York at the same time. Whoa, Dude, to have been a fly on That Wall!

I hear the Atlas Shrugged movie is out, sorta. The liberal reviewers are really driving in the stake. Look on the general forum.

Three points you missed. Air leaks in a big volume like that actually take quite a while, even big ones. Ceres owns 6 honking big battleship guns taken from their only honking big battleship, now a liner. Trust me, people who live like them in a hostile environment have redundant contingencies for their precautions, they are safe inside.

Grafititi artists, I say let them pay a months property taxes to the owners account, they are claiming ownership, ain't they. And also damages.  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 12:59:06 am by spudit »
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spudit on April 28, 2011, 01:02:04 am
Rorschach, this 911 stuff ran really wild here a few months back. I'd just let it happen on the general forum, it has a spot there.
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Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 01:20:28 am
Rorschach, this 911 stuff ran really wild here a few months back. I'd just let it happen on the general forum, it has a spot there.
Others keep bringing up 911 stuff. For years I have asked for a picture of an American Airlines jet hitting the Twin Towers. Considering we had 12 news cameras filming the second collision and hundreds of pictures of the second collision someone would have produced something by now. I noticed a lot of the older pictures and media slowly disappearing. To have people keep saying that "Al Qaeda was permitted" to blow up the Twin Towers just pisses me off. Someone wants to look like an idiot in public that's fine, but I'm allowed to say "you're an idiot" in public. It has almost been a decade, nobody has ever shown me a pic of an AA jet flying toward the Twin Towers.
Quote from: spudit
Rorschach The last bit seems odd to me but OK if you say so. Does believe mean recognize as real or see as worthwhile. I know flying bothered her.
Ayn Rand lectured colleges against Relativity, because it is directly contrary to her belief in an absolute observer. Rand's philosophies were wholly and completely dependent upon Newtownian physics being the final say, so she started a smear campaign against Einstein. Since Rand doesn't believe in Relativity, I would let her go anywhere she wanted that doesn't involve Relativity in any form, no fusion, no fission. The alternative of course is have her directly witness an atomic bomb and then have her try to reconcile her philosophy with observed reality.
Unfortunately, due to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem (later proven) it is impossible to have a complete and self consistent mathematical system. Even ignoring physics, Ayn Rand (real name: Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum) is provably flawed. She refused to amend or reconcile her world view, so if it was up to me I would refuse her the services and benefits that she pretends doesn't exist.

J Thomas on April 28, 2011, 01:35:37 am

It is asking to much to ask people to act heroicly, if the heroism is that do-gooders will lock up the guy that saved the day.

Sorry about that. If you're only going to be a hero if there's no risk to you, then.... Well, I guess you're just a special kind of hero.

sam on April 28, 2011, 02:08:48 am
The fact is, however, that Al Quaeda was allowed to do 9/11, despite lots of red flags that should have provoked action.  Every person that should have acted to stop them was cross examined on his failure to act, and each of the many people that failed to act pointed out that acting would have been illegal. 

Are you saying the living hijackers boarded two US Military Drone jets and flew them into the Twin Towers

You are demented.

Those were airliners full of passengers.  The terrorist Mohammed Atta broadcast from Flight 11 to ground control that he had seized control of the plane, and that God was Great.  The passengers Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong made phone calls from Flight 11, which phone calls confirm Mohammed Atta's claims (about the plane, not about God)

All in all there were fifteen phone calls made by passengers reporting the hijackings to family and to authorities.

The planes that crashed into towers were obviously passenger airliners - for passenger airliners are the biggest planes around.

Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 02:21:43 am
Demented? asking to see pictures of something that "everyone saw" is demented?

By the way, there was a commercial service offered by a private company. Give them a voice sample, they can repeat the voice. Did you even see the transcripts of the guy calling his mother before reciting the Bible and then charging the cockpit in the third plane? His MOM didn't believe it was him. "Who calls their mother and gives their full name?" was her reply. I've handled each of these arguments one by one before. It could all be speculation. I want to SEE what EVERYONE claims to have SEEN. Show me a picture of an American Airlines jet hitting the Twin Towers. All I have SEEN is dark grey military jets and I have seen them hundreds of times. Not ONCE have I seen an AA jet.

sam on April 28, 2011, 02:53:19 am
UW can take out all of Ceres with a single bomb. They can find some disgruntled person to lay the blame on (like the McKinley assassination)  while still achieving their real goals. If there are *rapid* immediate systems that can contain the damage, protect the air supply and save the station - who manages them? Who pays for their maintenance?

What we see of Ceres appears to be a big shopping mall, or several such shopping malls.  I assume that private homes and the larger businesses have their own air supply, while the smaller businesses rely on the mall air supply.

A single attack, therefore, would explosively decompress a single mall, causing extensive carnage, but not completely destroying Ceres.

Space habitats are extremely vulnerable to attack - but so are skyscrapers.  We protect skyscrapers against state enemies, not by armoring them up, but by threatening reprisals against states.  Earth, being at the bottom of a gravity well, is quite vulnerable to reprisals.

Thus it is plausible that United Worlds would pursue a strategy of propaganda, intimidation, infiltration, and low level war, like the Soviet Union did, rather than total war like Nazi Germany did.  Cereans have nukes, and rocks.  Swords protect better than shields.

dough560 on April 28, 2011, 03:00:06 am
Rorschach.  Please refer to my earlier posts concerning Ruby Ridge and Waco.  I believe you will have an understanding of my opinion of various agencies.

People wanting safety and power, resulted in the erosion of freedom, allowing the agencies to become what they are

Today, if responding to an incident:  1.  Property crime; observe and report.  Be the best witness you can.  Take notes, photograph or video-graph if able.   2.  Life endangered;  Do what's necessary to preserve life.  Know laws concerning citizen's arrest (for #1 and 2).  Act decisively with necessary force.  Do not use more force than necessary to stop or restrain.  If deadly force is necessary, be efficient.  Do not overdo.  Remember, it is not your responsibility to punish.

Apply the Zero Aggression Principle and the Courts' favorite: "What would a reasonable man do?"  It doesn't hurt to have a criminal defense lawyer on retainer.  Follow your lawyer's advice when dealing with local or federal laws and regulations.

As for 9/11.  Passenger jets were used.  No (in the conventional sense) drone is big enough to do the kind of damage done.  I was watching TV and saw the second plane fly into the tower.  It was a civilian air liner.  As for the first plane, I haven't seen any photos or video of impact.  Just the aftermath.




sam on April 28, 2011, 03:10:02 am
Demented? asking to see pictures of something that "everyone saw" is demented?

There are plenty of pictures of planes whose size and shape shows them to be airliners crashing into the two towers.   The reason that they are too blurred to see the logos is that the airliners are moving at several hundred miles an hour, while the camera is aimed at the building.

By the way, there was a commercial service offered by a private company. Give them a voice sample, they can repeat the voice. Did you even see the transcripts of the guy calling his mother before reciting the Bible

I don't need a transcript.  It is hard to fool someone's mother.

and then charging the cockpit in the third plane? His MOM didn't believe it was him. "Who calls their mother and gives their full name?" was her reply.

No it was not.

Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 03:36:13 am
UW can take out all of Ceres with a single bomb. They can find some disgruntled person to lay the blame on (like the McKinley assassination)  while still achieving their real goals. If there are *rapid* immediate systems that can contain the damage, protect the air supply and save the station - who manages them? Who pays for their maintenance?

What we see of Ceres appears to be a big shopping mall, or several such shopping malls.  I assume that private homes and the larger businesses have their own air supply, while the smaller businesses rely on the mall air supply.
I'll accept your layout - but that only increases the number of bombs used. "total" devastation is more difficult to create with a large distributed population or redundant air supplies, but that only evades the question not solves the premise.

A single attack, therefore, would explosively decompress a single mall, causing extensive carnage, but not completely destroying Ceres.

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Space habitats are extremely vulnerable to attack - but so are skyscrapers.  We protect skyscrapers against state enemies, not by armoring them up, but by threatening reprisals against states.  Earth, being at the bottom of a gravity well, is quite vulnerable to reprisals.

Thus it is plausible that United Worlds would pursue a strategy of propaganda, intimidation, infiltration, and low level war, like the Soviet Union did, rather than total war like Nazi Germany did.  Cereans have nukes, and rocks.  Swords protect better than shields.
I'll claim you need to thermite or C4 the support beams to take out a skyscraper, and that basically requires a great deal of internal access. A city underwater or in space has a large shell with airlocks, all of which are vulnerable. Gravity wells make a huge difference, reprisals are possible only from short range though. A moon based railgun/mass driver launch of rocks still requires a few days to arrive, and the UW should have basic intercept craft.

Rorschach on April 28, 2011, 03:47:10 am
Rorschach.  Please refer to my earlier posts concerning Ruby Ridge and Waco.  I believe you will have an understanding of my opinion of various agencies.

People wanting safety and power, resulted in the erosion of freedom, allowing the agencies to become what they are
I'll look up your RR and Waco posts, I'm moderately familiar with both incidents but I'll try to find your take in order to understand your opinions better.
The second paragraph is *exactly* on topic and *exactly* what I want to discuss and avoid.

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Today, if responding to an incident:  1.  Property crime; observe and report.  Be the best witness you can.  Take notes, photograph or video-graph if able.   2.  Life endangered;  Do what's necessary to preserve life.  Know laws concerning citizen's arrest (for #1 and 2).  Act decisively with necessary force.  Do not use more force than necessary to stop or restrain.  If deadly force is necessary, be efficient.  Do not overdo.  Remember, it is not your responsibility to punish.
In all of these situations I am completely 100% in agreement with you. I proposed 4 situations in the ZAP thread, all discussing circumstances NOT listed above and so far I haven't really had answers. I "showed my hand" and demonstrated the underlying principles and motivation for bringing forward the 4 circumstances and I still lack ZAP based replies. Will you take a shot?

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Apply the Zero Aggression Principle and the Courts' favorite: "What would a reasonable man do?"  It doesn't hurt to have a criminal defense lawyer on retainer.  Follow your lawyer's advice when dealing with local or federal laws and regulations.
In the US, traveling to work in 2001 I crossed over 250 different jurisdictions while traveling to teach my Linux class once a month. I am convinced that following the law is not possible. I did some research and found that if I were to transport a white lab mouse, a spinning or dancing mouse it would be legal, but a brown pet mouse was illegal. Crocodiles but not Alligators (or the other way around) was not legal. In one California city it is illegal to operate nuclear devices, which includes smoke alarms. In another California city it is not legal to pour distilled water down the drain due to pH values. Too many laws, too many regulations, it is impossible to read or follow the law. I think about 10k pages of rulings and law are added at the Federal level every year, which, to my surprise, apply to private citizens in their own homes, especially regarding Cell Phones and the internet. The use of any device that is capable of interstate commerce = federal law.

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As for 9/11.  Passenger jets were used.  No (in the conventional sense) drone is big enough to do the kind of damage done.  I was watching TV and saw the second plane fly into the tower.  It was a civilian air liner.  As for the first plane, I haven't seen any photos or video of impact.  Just the aftermath.
I did some of the homework I requested others do, the problem is that the videos are getting harder and harder to find, and the same with the pictures. They were very very clear previously, but now half of the links on the collections are 404ed and the great pictures are getting harder and harder to find. The more whacko the opinion, the easier it is to find images. The mainstream movement seems to have the video evidence pulled away.  E.g. The video/picture evidence isn't being preserved but pruned. Every year I search it gets harder and harder.
http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/why-flight-11-and-175-could-not-have-been-the-planes-which-flew-into-the-twin-towers/