spudit on March 07, 2011, 11:04:36 am
On vigilante justice versus cop justice, an ugly truth.

How often do we hear of cops killing civilians and walking away. Read this one, a cop killed a half deaf Indian woodcarver wearing headphones with 4 shots at the distance of 3 yards because he had a knife, imagine that, and did not obey repeated verbal commands to drop it, imagine that too. From reports on the scene, he may never have even seen the cop.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013082467_shooting06m.html

Imagine one of us killing someone, a handicapped minority someone even, and walking away with a hand slap.

A private citizen in a vigilante situation has no special protections if he screws up, none. Big Boy time folks and it has to make a person thoughtful.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 11:15:40 am by spudit »
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macsnafu on March 07, 2011, 12:12:22 pm
Deepness ahead, sorta

Are we not all, ultimately home schooled?

The way I look at it, teaching is something that is done to somebody, but learning is always something you have to do yourself, whatever the environment.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:07:14 pm
I have some advice. Read the research, including the not-so-wild-west paper.

Then post.

Doing it the other way around leads to having to retract stupid theories which have already been refuted.

Regarding vigilante committees: in Real Life, they arose when needed, were often led by people who had established good reputations, and were disbanded when "the people" objected. Since they were voluntary forms of organization and the "leaders" were not considered to be miraculously elected to godlike status, they tended to do more good than damage.

Hence, observers reported that the "mild mild west" was at least as safe as the government-heavy cities back East. However, folks back East, who had a vested interest in extending their power, carped about the "strange" customs in the West.

What else is new?

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

True story: just last night, I was asked "But do your kids do anything about their children's social development?"

To which I replied with a heavy dose of sarcasm "Yes, every third Tuesday, they unlock the chains and let my grandkids out of the closet to get some sun and talk to other kids."

Harumph!


Terry,
I do have a question about home-schooled kids.  Since you appear to have some experience in the matter, I will ask you:
Because your kids/grandkids are home-schooled, what do they do for after school activities?  Do they play football, or other sports?  Are they as successful as other kids at making friends?

Do you or they feel intellectually superior or otherwise snobbish and arrogant toward other kids?

I just dont know, so I am asking.

ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:45:44 pm
Deepness ahead, sorta

Are we not all, ultimately home schooled?

Sandy's post at the beginning of this topic was a history lesson, surely the public schools could have spent several days on it, if allowed. Those of us who read it learned something. Those of us at home and not reading this on the boss' dime, you know who you are, got schooled at home.

Teach a kid the 3 Rs and critical thinking and right there can begin a lifetime of homeschooling. Wet chemistry, machine shop and a few others aside, given a book, enough math and a functioning brain, anything can be learned.

Or as someone wiser than me once said,

"Teach a man to start a fire and he'll be warm all night,
set him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life"

Maybe I shoulda stuck with the fishing one?


"got schooled"?  Honestly?

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

It is damned difficult.  Why?  Because Republicans are afraid that once kids understand the reality of life in the US today, they will use their junior science kit to make bombs.
Seriously.  I have read columns by dad's telling of their difficulty in finding, buying and not going to jail for terrorism-ing of science kits.

Its not just the kids who look at you funny when you announce your kid is home-schooled, but normal people do too.
Not the intelligentsia, nor the unions, nor the Fox Newsers, but normal people.  This idea had to come from somewhere, and, while I am sure it has been blown out of proportion by the media, someone, somewhere had to have a bad experience with a home-schooled kid.
Experiential knowledge trumps propaganda and Fox News every time.

But, of course, since the kids you know that are home-schooled are always perfect angels and proto-Einsteins, then they must all be that way, right?

ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:54:31 pm
On vigilante justice versus cop justice, an ugly truth.

How often do we hear of cops killing civilians and walking away. Read this one, a cop killed a half deaf Indian woodcarver wearing headphones with 4 shots at the distance of 3 yards because he had a knife, imagine that, and did not obey repeated verbal commands to drop it, imagine that too. From reports on the scene, he may never have even seen the cop.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013082467_shooting06m.html

Imagine one of us killing someone, a handicapped minority someone even, and walking away with a hand slap.

A private citizen in a vigilante situation has no special protections if he screws up, none. Big Boy time folks and it has to make a person thoughtful.

He wasnt wearing headphones, he was hard-of-hearing.  Seattle has had a rash of misbehaving cops lately.  With the amount of attacks on minorities, you'd think we were in the deep South instead of being the second most liberal city in America.

macsnafu on March 07, 2011, 02:41:15 pm

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

What?  Has Radio Shack stopped selling kits?

I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

SandySandfort on March 07, 2011, 03:20:40 pm

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

What?  Has Radio Shack stopped selling kits?

Apparently not:

http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=28-178&Name=Electronic%20Labs%20and%20Kits&Reuse=N

For other crystal radio kits:

http://www.google.com/products?q=%22crystal+radio+kit%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=shop:1&source=og&sa=X&ei=nEp1TfHyNoT7lweArP2xCw&ved=0CB4QrQQ&biw=977&bih=444

Google "science kit" and get nearly a half million hits. Sounds as though CG didn't do his homework... as usual.

GlennWatson on March 07, 2011, 04:42:18 pm
As a teacher I can assure you most teachers do not have a problem with homeschooling or privates schools.  Some kids do well, other not so well.  That is true in both systems.

The good news for us is that we still get your education tax dollars whether you send your kid to public school or not. 

Its like you are paying money to McDonalds but still eating at home.  Its sucks for you but the system makes out like bandits.

Brugle on March 07, 2011, 05:04:15 pm
Re: vigilantes

A few years ago I read 1 or 2 books and several academic papers on various vigilantes.  I was surprised to read how scrupulous the vigilantes were to not punish innocent people.  In one incident in Montana, some people (traveling separately) strongly suspected of murder and robbery were apprehended, and were given a chance to explain themselves (after being warned of the seriousness).  Some were hanged (after confessing or telling obvious lies), but one was released.  The released man told an improbable story that nobody believed, but they didn't have firm proof that he had lied.

I'd expect that some vigilantes were less scrupulous than the ones I read about.  Some might even had been as bad as the Hollywood depiction of vigilantes, but I doubt that that was common.

spudit on March 07, 2011, 05:09:45 pm
What I said was

Quote
Teach a kid the 3 Rs and critical thinking and right there can begin a lifetime of homeschooling. Wet chemistry, machine shop and a few others aside, given a book, enough math and a functioning brain, anything can be learned.

For some things you need a lab or a shop but not most.

Where do you get, got schooled?

The guy was only half deaf so the cop was justified, is that how it works CG? Four bullets at 10 feet, 3 meters, oops. No the point there was, once again in smaller words maybe. If a vigilante person or group killed by mistake, they'd fry. That cop got paid administrative leave, a vacation, he resigned, faces no criminal charges.

How it turned out.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/435580_shooting16.html

Turns out as long as it can't be proven that the cop acted out of malice, he automatically walks.  Remember Mr Policeman is your friend.

Do you see the connection CG, between this murder and the killing of the 4 other cops 40 or 50 miles away in Lakewood. The cops act like thugs, like 007 they have a license to kill and for some reason people don't like them. Not that I am defending the Lakewood shooter, some cop may have earned his hatred but not those strangers. I don't even sympathize, but I do understand it.

Looks like Williams was a Canadian national, maybe the Mounties will scoop up former officer Birk but I doubt it. I too can take things out of context, as in Pigs is Pigs.

Added, I guess bottom line ZAP does not apply to the police. God help us all.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 05:21:22 pm by spudit »
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quadibloc on March 08, 2011, 12:42:23 am
If a vigilante person or group killed by mistake, they'd fry. That cop got paid administrative leave, a vacation, he resigned, faces no criminal charges.
It used to be that cops didn't act like that. Without a definite reason to believe that, in the first place, the woodcarver was threatening him with the knife, a policeman would not have begun the apparent confrontation by telling him to drop the knife.

He would have first quietly watched and seen, "oh, that guy's a woodcarver".

But after that first step, everything else that happened was automatic. When there is a high level of violence, that police are often attacked by people with knives, they have to operate under rules of engagement that don't require them to expose themselves to any risk. Because it's a job they do day in and day out - and so there are a lot of days to get through without being killed to pick up your pension.

I agree that an innocent person has died, and so there should be blood shed for blood.

But perhaps it's the people in jail for attacking police officers with knives who should be taken out and shot, instead of that police officer being punished. Because they created the situation in which this kind of thing happens.

Basically, the problem is that the War on Drugs hasn't been won yet. The government says, don't use cocaine, heroin, or marijuana, and for some incredible reason, some people don't listen. So there is violence in some areas of town, instead of everyplace being quiet, peaceful, and law-abiding. If there was hardly ever any crime, police would not be operating on a hair-trigger level, the problem would instead be that they might lose their alertness.

Basically, then, the problem is that the citizens of places like Los Angeles and Manhattan aren't like the citizens of, say, the fictional Mayberry - so law enforcement is also different, because the situation is different. Determine where the discrepancy lies, and correct the deviations from the desired prototype - once the situation conforms, the appropriate type of law-enforcement activity will also conform.

Bob G on March 08, 2011, 01:58:00 am
But perhaps it's the people in jail for attacking police officers with knives who should be taken out and shot, instead of that police officer being punished. Because they created the situation in which this kind of thing happens.

Basically, the problem is that the War on Drugs hasn't been won yet. The government says, don't use cocaine, heroin, or marijuana, and for some incredible reason, some people don't listen. So there is violence in some areas of town, instead of everyplace being quiet, peaceful, and law-abiding. If there was hardly ever any crime, police would not be operating on a hair-trigger level, the problem would instead be that they might lose their alertness.

So by your own analysis, government "created the situation in which this kind of thing happens." The government, in starting the War on (Some) Drugs (which is actually a war on the freedoms of their citizens) is initiating force. The government tells its citizens what they can or cannot do to their own bodies, and when those citizens (rightly) tell the government to get stuffed it reacts as all frustrated bullies do. Also, by forcing the illicit drug trade into the black market, it creates all the ancillary criminal activity that accompanies that as well.

So, should we take Tricky Dick Nixon out and shoot him since it was his executive order that shaped our current version of TWoD? Oops, too late. Well then, how about Bill Bennett and Barry McCaffrey?

Note to lurking authorities: In case you don't get it, I am *not* advocating assaults on government officials former or current, I am attempting an argument reductio ad absurdam (look it up).
Whatsoever, for any cause, seeketh to take or give
  Power above or beyond the Laws, suffer it not to live.
Holy State, or Holy King, or Holy People's Will.
  Have no truck with the senseless thing, order the guns and kill.

The penultimate stanza of Rudyard Kipling's MacDonough's Song

sam on March 08, 2011, 04:39:05 am
So by your own analysis, government "created the situation in which this kind of thing happens." The government, in starting the War on (Some) Drugs (which is actually a war on the freedoms of their citizens) is initiating force.

If the government declares war on X, it should be unsurprised that something similar to war ensues.


J Thomas on March 08, 2011, 05:58:14 am
....

I have found that people here don't like it when I am too sarcastic.

terry_freeman on March 08, 2011, 08:06:21 am

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

They bring up the "socialization" argument because they've already lost the quality education argument. It's a case of grasping for straws.

A few weeks ago I asked my oldest daughter if she'd like to be homeschooled, since she gave the impression she was bored in school a lot and she was objecting to doing a lot of the boring homework. She'd always refused before because she wanted to be with her friends, and she rejected the magnet school for the same reason.

"No, daddy! I'm not stupid!"
"Stupid? Of course not. What does that have to do with it?"
"All the kids say it's the stupidest kids who have to be homeschooled."
"Well, it doesn't have to be that way."
"If I was homeschooled all my friends would think I was stupid."

I hadn't noticed that particular line before.


New one on me! Whenever I mention that home schoolers score 30 percentile points above their peers, I'm told that this is due to self-selection - only the brightest students are home-schooled, apparently.

Truth is a little more complex. Some of the brightest do leave, because the schools simply cannot keep up. If you are mathematically gifted, it is torture to be "learning" single-digit and double-digit multiplication for months when you're already far past that point. Others leave because they're not getting the personal attention needed to keep up - they got lost somewhere and "didn't get" something important, and now they're struggling to keep up when they don't know the basic rules of the game.
   

 

anything