Brugle on March 11, 2011, 07:41:38 pm
So the right thinks libertarians are right wing,
Not true.

Some people who self-identify as rightists wish that libertarians would think of themselves as allies, but most libertarians don't.  (A few do consider themselves rightists, and a few consider themselves as leftists, but most reject both left and right.)

A large number of people who self-identify as rightists consider libertarians to be leftists, because of specific libertarian positions.

And when we look at all the wildly diverse ideologies of the right,
You (as a rightist) see a wide variety in people considered to be rightists and see conformity in people considered to be leftists.
A leftist sees a wide variety in people considered to be leftists and sees conformity in people considered to be rightists.
You insist that you are correct and that the leftist is wrong.  A leftist sees the opposite.
A libertarian sees that both rightists and leftists support increased government aggression.  Libertarians are neither right nor left.

Coincidentally, a few minutes ago I happened to read this quote, which is apparently from Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time by Carroll Quigley:
Quote
The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy. … Either party in office becomes in time corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigorless. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.
Obviously, US politics today works exactly like Quigley proposed.

terry_freeman on March 11, 2011, 08:12:26 pm
Don't confuse "people who identify as left|right" with "politicians who identify as left|right".

The twain are different as night and day.

Consider that, regardless of which party is in power, the size of federal government has increased monotonically since just after WW II. It often increases faster when a politician of the "right" is in power. The slowest growth in recent years was when Bill Clinton was in office; most Americans would take him over Bush or Obama any day of the week.

I'd rather have a President diddling interns than hatching schemes to grow the government budget by 10-20% annually.

sam on March 11, 2011, 08:49:39 pm
more laws to enforce sexual morality

The left is pro sex provided you get explicit consent for sex in actual words capable of being notarized by a Justice of the Peace.  Who brought you the ever rising age of consent?  Who invented “marital rape”?

 

sam on March 12, 2011, 12:08:30 am
So the right thinks libertarians are right wing,
Some people who self-identify as rightists wish that libertarians would think of themselves as allies,

The most prominent rightist bloggers - Steve Sailer, Roissy, Mencius Moldbug, Ann Coulter, and Auster think that libertarians are all objectively allies, whatever libertarians may choose to think, since we are all permanently out of power, and the left is permanently in power – for regardless of which party is elected, the permanent fireproof bureaucracy has views similar to those of Harvard English Studies professor, and mere elected politicians are to it an idle wind which it does not regard.

Now there are quite a lot of libertarians who try to suck up the left and grovel to it, for example Tyler Cowan and "the Agitator", and wiggle their bums in the air hoping some random leftist will deign to poke them, but this does them absolutely no good.  Because the left is in power, and we are not, it is entirely unimpressed by suck ups.  Only total ideological conformity on every minute detail will suffice - suffice to begin a long journey of ass kissing which might eventually get you let in to the outer circle of power, but only total conformity from earliest childhood, and the right connections, will let you into the inner circle.

And when we look at all the wildly diverse ideologies of the right,

You (as a rightist) see a wide variety in people considered to be rightists and see conformity in people considered to be leftists.

Little Bobby goes to kindergarten, and is catechized in the politically correct attitudes trees without any problems, but when catechized in the politically correct attitudes to homosexuality, to the shock, horror, and outrage of the teachers, he says that romance is yucky, that guys kissing get cooties, that guys kissing guys is twice as yucky and will give you cooties that can kill you.

Little Bobby is disrupting class, and is obviously emotionally disturbed, so say the teachers, and they call little Bobbies father in for a parent teacher consultation, in which his dad is seated facing a panel of a dozen authority figures, who cross examine him for poor parenting practices and possible child abuse, with an implied threat to hold his kid hostage against him.

Little Johnny goes to kindergarten, and is catechized in the politically correct attitudes trees, but he says he wants to drive a bulldozer like his dad, and cut trees down with a chainsaw.  When sent out to hug the trees, he pretends to chain saw them.  Vroom, Vroom.

Little Johnny is disrupting class, and is obviously emotionally disturbed, so say the teachers, and they call Little Johnny father in for a parent teacher consultation, in which his dad is seated facing a panel of a dozen authority figures, who cross examine him for poor parenting practices and possible child abuse, with an implied threat to hold his kid hostage against him.

Now let us suppose that little Johnny's father is a flaming homosexual, and the protective gear he wears when cutting down trees is pink leather reinforced with chains.

You will notice that the political deviation of evil right wing Johnny's father has absolutely nothing in common with the political deviation of evil right wing Bobby's father.  Their deviations from orthodoxy are completely different and entirely unrelated, yet the star chamber of teachers that investigates them for political deviation and possible child abuse agree on absolutely everything.


A leftist sees a wide variety in people considered to be leftists

So what do leftists disagree on apart from how hard and fast we should proceed to to a totalitarian terror state, and to how rapidly we should capitulate to Islam, whether Obama should bow down before all Muslims or only "moderate" Muslims?

You insist that you are correct and that the leftist is wrong.

If the leftist is right, produce some evidence.  I produced a list of prominent right wing bloggers that disagree on just about every fundamental and major point.  Left wing disagreements are utterly trivial, mainly consisting of each leftist claiming to be even lefter than the other leftist.


Coincidentally, a few minutes ago I happened to read this quote, which is apparently from Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time by Carroll Quigley:
Quote
The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical

Obviously the elected politicians are very similar  to each other, but to make your argument, you need to show not that elected politicians lack diversity, but that both parties are equally lacking in diversity.  Obviously the republicans are far more diverse politically than the democrats.

The intellectuals and ideologues of the right differ from each other quite radically.  The intellectuals and ideologues of the left are every bit as homogeneous, indeed more homogeneous, than the elected politicians of the left, for the elected politicians have to suck up to the diverse electors of their home states every few years, while the intellectuals of the left are free to be in ever more perfect harmony and agreement.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 09:16:17 pm by sam »

spudit on March 12, 2011, 12:24:33 am
Just tossing this one out there but am I alone in thinking Ann Coulter is a dude?

Think about it.

Kinda gawky, big hands, touch of an adam's apple, beligerant as hell, not so good looking but she tries. Irrational too, gotta tweak the hormones a bit. No wonder she has issues, after all, he has issues.

But, hell, I don't judge, have no right to. Really folks, I'm just an observer here.
 ;D
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 12:29:14 am by spudit »
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sam on March 12, 2011, 12:58:04 am
Just tossing this one out there but am I alone in thinking Ann Coulter is a dude?

No.  Every other leftist agrees with you, since they are all metrosexuals, they all believe Ann coulter is a dude, while being entirely confident that Helen Thomas is rather attractive human rather than a giant man eating space alien slug.from Alpha Centauri

All normal males, however, (being regular heterosexuals with ninety percent of their brains between their legs) think that Ann Coulter is a hot chick, or was when she was a bit younger, while Helen Thomas is a giant man eating slug from a planet of arsenic based life forms.

GlennWatson on March 12, 2011, 07:32:50 am
Just tossing this one out there but am I alone in thinking Ann Coulter is a dude?


You would be if you really thought it, but even you don't.  Its a funny joke though and so original of you.

GlennWatson on March 12, 2011, 07:37:24 am
[quote}
In a political context "astroturf" is fake grassroots...
[/quote]

That is very clever.  I have never seen it explained like that before.  I like it.  I am going to use it in government class.  Did you make it up?

spudit on March 12, 2011, 10:13:40 am
Glenn, yes, I suppose not, but she is a bit butch for my taste. Pooch comes to mind. Despite her parts and possible surgical alterations there of, I don't like her thinking. Good if she's anatomically correct we can breed her with Cavuto, what fun.

Sam, who, besides yourself, is not a leftist?

Layoff the personal attacks.
It is rude and uncalled for.
Teasing is fine, know the limits.
If you can't play nicely with the other children you should stay home and play with yourself.

Oh yeah, and reread your posts and maybe check, your freudian slip might be showing.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 10:50:26 am by spudit »
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SandySandfort on March 12, 2011, 10:35:08 am
Just tossing this one out there but am I alone in thinking Ann Coulter is a dude?

Think about it.

Kinda gawky, big hands, touch of an adam's apple, beligerant as hell, not so good looking but she tries. Irrational too, gotta tweak the hormones a bit. No wonder she has issues, after all, he has issues.

Are you delusional?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Ann_Coulter_1.jpg

Both men and women have a laryngeal prominence (Adam's apple). On average, men have a more prominent one than women.

Actually, a much better "give-away" is neck length. On average, women's necks are substantially longer than men's. See the photo referenced above, for a very womanly neck length.

Another good sex indicator is the angle at the elbow when the arm is fully extended. However, none of the pictures I could find showed Coulter's arm in that position.

spudit on March 12, 2011, 10:39:10 am
Delusional?
Comes and goes.
No, not so much today.

Neck length. Spudit likes, a young Audrey Hepburn, yum.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 10:41:31 am by spudit »
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SandySandfort on March 12, 2011, 10:41:54 am
That is very clever.  I have never seen it explained like that before.  I like it.  I am going to use it in government class.  Did you make it up? [Emphasis added.]

Ah, there you go.  ::)

BTW, you "teach" government and you never heard the explanation of astroturf? Wow. Do you read anything except science fiction (for which you don't pay, of course)? Once again, Wow.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 10:43:49 am by SandySandfort »

Brugle on March 12, 2011, 11:20:17 am
The most prominent rightist bloggers - Steve Sailer, Roissy, Mencius Moldbug, Ann Coulter, and Auster think that libertarians are all objectively allies, whatever libertarians may choose to think, since we are all permanently out of power,
The fever dreams of people that you consider to be prominent rightist bloggers are of no more interest to libertarians than the fever dreams of JT or CG.  A typical libertarian might ally with a rightist or a leftist on a specific issue in the rare situation when the rightist or leftist opposes aggression on that issue.  However, a typical libertarian will not ally with rightists or leftists in general, because rightists and leftists support aggression.

If the leftist is right, produce some evidence.
Why?  I never suggested that the leftist was correct, just that leftist attitudes are, from a libertarian point of view, almost identical to rightist attitudes.

Libertarians oppose the aggression that both leftists and rightists tend to support.  Libertarians also oppose the aggression that rightists tend to support and leftists tend to oppose.  Libertarians also oppose the aggression that leftists tend to support and rightists tend to oppose.

I produced a list of prominent right wing bloggers that disagree on just about every fundamental and major point.
The fundamental political issue for libertarians is government aggression.  Rightists support it.  Leftists support it.  Libertarians oppose it.

quadibloc on March 12, 2011, 11:36:48 am
The fundamental political issue for libertarians is government aggression.  Rightists support it.  Leftists support it.  Libertarians oppose it.
This is true.

Rightists may think that Libertarians are objectively allies simply because by being out of power, they can't interfere effectively with the types of government aggression the rightists support, while their activities are more effective in highlighting what's wrong with the types of government aggression the leftists support.

Also, the Republican Party has more than one internal faction. Some are viewed as quasi-Libertarian because they want lower taxes and fewer bureaucratic regulations on businesses, and are not overly fond of the social-conservative agenda of other parts of the party. They're not really libertarians, as they can work with the other half of the party, and they do favor some sorts of government aggression, but they're certainly effective at causing confusion in the public mind.

One shouldn't be surprised that working-class people will support the left instead of them; if the government is going to keep growing and committing aggression, at least it could be committing aggression to my benefit, they'll say.

But the important issue is that a need is created for real Libertarians to explain how, and why, their intended vision of the future will differ from the future that these people would create. "It would have less government" may be true, but it doesn't really address the primary concerns of this element of the electorate.

spudit on March 12, 2011, 11:58:57 am
Damn straight.

Dislike of gun control is good example of some Libertarian Republican overlap and agreement but there are plenty of others where they don't. What's that term, ven diagram, the overlapping circles thing, except in politics it's more like interpenetrating spheres. These are complicated subjects.
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