sams on February 21, 2011, 01:37:40 pm
Online I've watched people argue this. One time they took it back past 1948 to riots in 1946, but the Israelis had attacked arabs in Palestine in the 1920's, but the Arabs had attacked Jews in a market in 1905, and these amateur historians took it back to the 1880's before they got tired of arguing about who hit who first.

There's no cheese at the end of that tunnel, little mice.

It is not the criterion I use, I use the Praguer criterion :

If the Arabs give up their fights the Israelis will follow and there will be peace the next day.

What possible reason do you have to believe that? Anything?

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See the 5 minutes videos of the point :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&feature=player_embedded

Oh. You believe the propaganda.

OK, how did you come to accept this hasbarah uncritically, without thinking about it?


Because there is not enough Israeli to conquer the whole middle east, so far the IDF focus as always been to guaranty the existence of Israel and no one's destruction

mellyrn on February 21, 2011, 01:52:47 pm
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We need to remember where and when he worked, at the birth of modern India, against a worn out empire and in the light of the worldwide press, that is very publicly. Had he done the same against someone like Stalin or Mao, or Gadafi in today's headlines, he'd have lasted seconds.  It takes nothing away from his accomplishments to observe how incredibiliy lucky he was.

Lucky?  Hmm.  Egypt just now seems to have tried the Gandhi approach.  They're not done, of course; but then, even Gandhi took decades to drive the Brits out.  And with very little loss of life of ordinary people -- in both cases.

I don't think Gandhi was lucky at all.  I think he operated from a more profound grasp of human nature than the brute-forcers can or will believe. 

If I told you that six big young men armed with sledgehammers fled from one little old lady armed only with a pocketbook, would you believe me?  Without the video, I'd probably get all kinds of arguments -- all of them very good -- as to why that could never happen.  But it did.  Maybe she "got lucky".  Or maybe there was something subtler going on.

Brugle on February 21, 2011, 01:53:50 pm
Present me with an actual instance of Israelis using force for no purpose than killing innocent palestinians and I will agree with you.
How is anyone supposed to know all of the purposes behind murder?  Perhaps a murderer gets pleasure from killing.  Perhaps a murderer has religious reasons.  You ask the impossible.

But, just in case you really mean something more reasonable, I'll give you several actual instances (a minuscule fraction of the total, of course) of the murder of innocent Palestinians by Israelis.  Several IDF soldiers who participated in atrocities (including murders) against innocent Palestinians discuss them in Occupation of the Territories: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies 2000-2010.  It's online:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/45787174/Breaking-the-Silence-Full-Book-ENG-Dec22-10-Occupation-of-the-Territories-Israeli-Soldier-Testimonies-2000-2010

I was struck not just by the murders and other atrocities that the soldiers felt bad about, but also the casual brutality that the soldiers accept as routine.  Random beatings, wanton destruction of homes and other property, arbitrary disruption of travel (to get to work, etc.), with no apparent purpose other than humiliation.  Now and then a soldier questions the treatment of innocent people as sub-human, but that makes no difference to the rest.

sams on February 21, 2011, 02:18:20 pm
Present me with an actual instance of Israelis using force for no purpose than killing innocent palestinians and I will agree with you.
How is anyone supposed to know all of the purposes behind murder?  Perhaps a murderer gets pleasure from killing.  Perhaps a murderer has religious reasons.  You ask the impossible.

Nope it is easy to know : Hamas and Hezbolla adverstise their intentions ... kill the jews and destroy Israel.

The IDF mission is to protect Israel. Sure there are crazy Jews ... at least they are not in charge

I will have a look at the ebook later.

Brugle on February 21, 2011, 02:32:52 pm
Sure there are crazy Jews ... at least they are not in charge
I don't think anyone here considers Israel government leaders to be crazy.  They are obviously shrewd politicians.  Treat some people brutally enough, get a few of them to strike back in some way, and frighten the populace into supporting the state.  Government 101.

sams on February 21, 2011, 02:50:41 pm
Sure there are crazy Jews ... at least they are not in charge
I don't think anyone here considers Israel government leaders to be crazy.  They are obviously shrewd politicians.  Treat some people brutally enough, get a few of them to strike back in some way, and frighten the populace into supporting the state.  Government 101.


I don't think the people taking the beating in this case, the palestinians, are included has members of the state of Israel, which is based on religious and etnic consent.

There are things that don't fit the anarchist meme ... dude did Holt contaminated me ? ???

spudit on February 21, 2011, 04:30:29 pm
Sams,
Dude, and Contrary Guy pretty much agreed with me. This is like weird man, too freaking weird as in yeah man, and I see it too,  ;D
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