spudit on February 05, 2011, 09:49:25 pm
As to military manners, less surprised than you might think. The point here was they don't act like an invading army, not yet anyway. This is no blitzkreig.

And the idea of the majority prefering statism is flawed. Given 2 regions, one anarchist and one regimented and free access across the border, both would bleed people and for the best.

Me, I grew up in a big city but now live in a small town. One could say the city bled me cause I ain't never going back to that hive. Yet I have family there who would hate to live where and as I do.

Given a thousand regions and free access, a thousand different "types" would self select and live as they like surrounded by their sort, whatever the hell that may be. Some call it freedom.
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sams on February 06, 2011, 03:10:03 am
I assume that in the EFT universe, Earth's governments are similar to ours.  In particular, there will be government schools whose primary purpose is turning intelligent children into obedient citizens.  Without government schools, most people of Ceres will be better educated (and have much better critical thinking skills) than most people of Earth.  The government schools (if effective) should make the soldiers willing to die for the state, but the people of Ceres will be defending their homes and loved ones, which should compensate.  And there are advantages to being defenders with a detailed knowledge of the "terrain".

Oh wow. Is that what schools in the USA are like?
frack me sideways I am so glad I don't live in a shit heap like that.
I mean seriously now, find me a normal school that sets out to do what you're saying there. I know British ones don't as not once have I had a "WE ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE!" statement thrown out in the classroom by the teacher. Hell not even when I was at a school paid for and ran by the DoD for their families (back when my father was on a Germany tour).

As Ceres has no government, and thus, no central power structure, any occupying force will have a hard time actually "occupying" Ceres, short of having at least one soldier per Ceresian, which would require a very large number of military forces.  They might easily occupy a portion of Ceres, but would have trouble expanding that occupation, especially if the Ceresians start giving them trouble over it.
Still, as much as an attempted military occupation seems the most likely action to me, the idea of a more indirect approach, by either or both sides, does sound intriguing.



Oooor they could just go "Right enough is enough. MEN! SUITS ON!" and then they pop a few environment seals and let the anarchists all die. After that it's a simple sweep job followed by repairs and bringing in new colonists. After all they obviously don't want the people.

I am not sure if this board considers is bad form to make guesses about the plot but I like to live dangerously so here is my prediction for this storyline.

I predict the Earth soldiers will move into the hotel and from there move on to take possession of large businesses and transportation hubs.  The army will simply announce that Ceres has been annexed/liberated by Earth and the people of Ceres have been "freed" from their evil rulers and will now be "protected" by EarthGov, for a fee/tax of about 90%.

The attack will be ham-fisted and incompetent but dangerous nonetheless.  Several solders will be killed by their own incompetence but so will some innocents on Ceres.

The citizens will respond with precision, first moving their vulnerable members to safety then counter attacking using guerilla tactics.  I expect explosions and sniping. 

The fighting will be desperate until help arrives from Mars in the form of the rejuvenated king and his wife.

Whatever happens I am sure it will be good.


If that happens I will set out to purchase "Big Head Press" and rename it to "Anarchists dissociated from reality Press".
Seriously that would be incredibly shit tier. About as believable as any propaganda piece.

The writer might agree with you and make this happen but in the real world would a small anarchy be able to withstand a concerted military action by a more traditional government?  I don't know but I fear they would not.

I think plotting a successful defence of Ceres in a reasonable and believable way will be the author's biggest challenge yet.

Firstly I doubt any small anarchist society would be able to survive if it was in competition with any form of state. Even a big one would only survive for a while. A state fulfils certain needs for people that aren't fulfilled in an anarchist society. Over time the anarchist society will bleed people to the state society (barring it's some kind of insane society where Hitler clones run around eating babies and raping kittens) and the state society will slowly expand, pushing the anarchists out of their territory.

I honestly don't have high expectations for the author's ability to step up to that challenge. It's going to be bad. It's going to rely mostly on them being incompetent buffoons who shouldn't even have been able to survive their first use of a zero-G toilet without drowning let alone become anything resembling proficient with any form of weapon or sharp implement.


Aggression?

So far I hear a lot of please and thank you from their leader.

Scary stuff indeed.

Time will tell.

Yeah you'd be surprised how most military folk have good manners.


I have something to tell you : Something to Lose

When a scheme of power try to impose itself over others there is always someone who have something to lose and those people will fight back.

In an anarchist society there might not be one central centre of power, but there are at least some hundreds centre of power, being it wealthy people and such who have something to loose.

Lets take the example of the US, the congress and Presidency are the centre of power, but there are in the civil society more centres of power, who when combined many times decide who is going to get control of the top position. In comparison Nazi Germany had only one centre of power ... an Anarchy would be like like the US on steroids, the only question is how powerful all the centre of power are.

If you had read the previous arcs you would see that Reggie King is very rich to the point of having bough a warship and that many on Ceres are shareholders of very wealthy ventures ... have all these people fear to lose something and they might engage in action.

Hey how are those insurrections in Irak and Afganistan going Mr Military ? AFAIK the US only way not to get creamed there was to entice a centre of power to be on their side in Irak and in Afghanistan they failed to get the right natives ... same principle applies in EFT

Holt on February 06, 2011, 09:02:07 am
I have something to tell you : Something to Lose

When a scheme of power try to impose itself over others there is always someone who have something to lose and those people will fight back.

In an anarchist society there might not be one central centre of power, but there are at least some hundreds centre of power, being it wealthy people and such who have something to loose.

Lets take the example of the US, the congress and Presidency are the centre of power, but there are in the civil society more centres of power, who when combined many times decide who is going to get control of the top position. In comparison Nazi Germany had only one centre of power ... an Anarchy would be like like the US on steroids, the only question is how powerful all the centre of power are.

If you had read the previous arcs you would see that Reggie King is very rich to the point of having bough a warship and that many on Ceres are shareholders of very wealthy ventures ... have all these people fear to lose something and they might engage in action.

Hey how are those insurrections in Irak and Afganistan going Mr Military ? AFAIK the US only way not to get creamed there was to entice a centre of power to be on their side in Irak and in Afghanistan they failed to get the right natives ... same principle applies in EFT

The majority however will not be wealthy. Such is the way of capitalism. For someone to be wealthy many others must not be.

Also remember that quite a few of these "centers of power" will try to reach a compromise/deal with the invading state, probably selling out the others in return for more power or simple survival. Then you will have the non-wealthy to contend with who will probably use the chaos as an excuse to get revenge on the wealthy who have exploited them (again woo capitalism).
Also outnumbered, the ones who decide to fight will be massively outnumbered and may not even have popular support. I doubt Reggie will find support among the common workers considering his wealth. The bottom rungs of Ceres (inevitably the most numerous) would probably support a takeover in the event it happened as the invaders would be bringing improvements in their living conditions. The middle and upper class of Ceres however would be firmly against it as they have something to loose, but history shows you can't have a rebellion without the workers on your side.
Every government strives to appease or control the workers for the simple reason that they need them. Without the worker they have nothing except for a bunch of soft cunts who can't handle anything more strenuous than typing.

As for the Iraq situation. They're not fighting to be anarchists. They're fighting for their society, way of life, to be free of the USA, etc.
I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

mellyrn on February 06, 2011, 09:45:13 am
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Oh wow. Is that what schools in the USA are like?

Yes. 

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not once have I had a "WE ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE!" statement thrown out in the classroom by the teacher.

Well, you've already made it brilliantly clear that subtlety is lost on you;  apparently such a blatant statement, preferably shouted, is the only one you would notice in any case.  But whether we like it or not, people perceive, and are highly influenced by, such tiny things as, say, a mere hint of a smirk on the teacher's face when ostensibly objectively describing another nation or people.

You -- you, personally, I mean -- would be exceptionally easy to manipulate, to the exact degree that you deny the very existence of subtle manipulators (people or techniques).

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The majority however will not be wealthy.

"Wealthy" was just a for-instance.  The majority will have a sense of "home", of community -- sheer territoriality, if you like.  This particular human, writing now, thinks that's worth fighting in defense of; "home" is very much "something to lose".  You mean you don't?

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quite a few of these "centers of power" will try to reach a compromise/deal with the invading state, probably selling out the others in return for more power or simple survival.

A possibility, certainly, as Ireland found to its loss, but it's hardly inevitable.  It will also be the case that, with the locals fighting for home, even children will be threats and the invading soldiers will be forced to kill some smiling, rosy-cheeked little kids -- and unless you've bioengineered and/or drugged your troops till they are no longer human, no amount of "I had to do it to save my buddies" will wholly wash away that very human guilt and shame.  So as long as we're tallying informers and turncoats on the invaders' side of the ledger, we have to tally suicide and fragging (among the invaders) on the defenders' side.

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The bottom rungs of Ceres (inevitably the most numerous) would probably support a takeover in the event it happened as the invaders would be bringing improvements in their living conditions.

That, I think, is more common among the wealthy, who promise aid (and mucho dinero) to the invaders in return for having their property respected.  The "bottom rungs" don't have much to offer in that way. Besides, on the whole, humans tend to prefer "the devil we know to the devil we don't".  Bear in mind, the "bottom rungs" on Ceres know, from lots of examples in front of them, that they've got a chance to become as rich as Reggie -- and most of them also probably know, maybe even from personal experience, that the UW government intends to take as big a chunk of that wealth for itself as it can.  On Terra, if you weren't born to a rich family, you probably don't have a chance to become one (without prostituting yourself to the wealthy few).

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As for the Iraq situation. They're not fighting to be anarchists. They're fighting for their society, way of life, to be free of the USA, etc.

And you think anarchists would not fight for their society, way of life, to be free of Terra, etc.?  Oh, wait, that's right -- you think "anarchy" means "no society".

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I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

Feh.  Either one is merely a Romanization of a non-Romanesque sound.  I'd take you a bit more seriously if you learned what anarchy is, and went with that, instead of using straw men.

J Thomas on February 06, 2011, 09:55:02 am
I assume that in the EFT universe, Earth's governments are similar to ours.  In particular, there will be government schools whose primary purpose is turning intelligent children into obedient citizens.  Without government schools, most people of Ceres will be better educated (and have much better critical thinking skills) than most people of Earth.  The government schools (if effective) should make the soldiers willing to die for the state, but the people of Ceres will be defending their homes and loved ones, which should compensate.  And there are advantages to being defenders with a detailed knowledge of the "terrain".

Oh wow. Is that what schools in the USA are like?
frack me sideways I am so glad I don't live in a shit heap like that.

He gave one interpretation of how it works, and from my experience his interpretation is not contradicted by the facts although there are other ways to look at it.

My daughters got a lot of operant conditioning in the first couple of years. The students got rewarded for staying in their seats and not causing disturbances and obeying simple commands. At first it was direct rewards like candy, then it switched to green slips that they could stockpile and weekly turn in for badges and cheap toys. The kid who got too man red slips was in trouble and my youngest daughter talked about him, she was proud that she'd only gotten two red slips total, one when another kid tried to talk to her in class and one when she dropped her books.

The smartest 10% of the students according to standardized tests get to go to special schools where they supposedly learn more. My sister's son did that and hated it. They got a whole lot of material and a couple hours homework every night. My kids didn't want to go, they wanted to stay with their friends, so they got put in an alternate program where every week or two somebody comes to their school to teach them critical thinking skills. I have reviewed the material they bring home from that. So far it looks basicly competent but the pace is very slow. She teaches them that categories are things they get to choose for their own needs and apply to the world, and that names reflect the categories they choose. My thought is that the other 90% need that lesson more than the ones who get it, but on the other hand these are the ones whose parents will be most tolerant of it.

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Oooor they could just go "Right enough is enough. MEN! SUITS ON!" and then they pop a few environment seals and let the anarchists all die. After that it's a simple sweep job followed by repairs and bringing in new colonists. After all they obviously don't want the people.

They could do tremendous damage that way, but they wouldn't nearly kill everybody. Lots of people on Ceres have pressure suits and would be using them for their work. And there are lots more people on ships and other places. If Ceres didn't function it would take a long time for the others to die from lack of things they get from Ceres, and in the short run they would be extremely dangerous. I don't recall how spaceship engines work in this story, but isn't it plausible they would be nuclear engines that might convert to hydrogen bombs? Get a lot of people who know they're doomed and who might want revenge before they die and you don't want to be living in their enemy's capital city.

If government troops could plant an intelligent minefield all over Ceres that could be a useful threat. Each mine would report its capability and report if someone tried to tamper with it, and given the order they would blow all the seals at once.  But it isn't something to do unless things have gone so wrong there's no better choice. "Don't kill us all or we'll hurt you back."

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The writer might agree with you and make this happen but in the real world would a small anarchy be able to withstand a concerted military action by a more traditional government?  I don't know but I fear they would not.

I think plotting a successful defence of Ceres in a reasonable and believable way will be the author's biggest challenge yet.

Firstly I doubt any small anarchist society would be able to survive if it was in competition with any form of state. Even a big one would only survive for a while. A state fulfils certain needs for people that aren't fulfilled in an anarchist society.

Since we don't have any anarchist societies to compare against, this is sheer speculation. We can make predictions about what an anarchist society would have to be like, but without examples we're just guessing.

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Over time the anarchist society will bleed people to the state society (barring it's some kind of insane society where Hitler clones run around eating babies and raping kittens) and the state society will slowly expand, pushing the anarchists out of their territory.

I could easily imagine it the other way round. A state society that could cheaply export criminals to the anarchists might prefer to do that to keeping them imprisoned. Cheaper that way. And if they have high unemployment, they would be glad to ship excess people out -- provided it doesn't cost too much. And political dissidents, including anarchists. The kicker is Terra's gravity well. At $10,000/pound it costs way too much and you might as well gold-plate anything you send up. At $100/pound it's still pretty expensive. Get a cheap way to export people and governments might send them out at a pretty good clip. They might send out emigrants faster than the anarchists can expand to provide for them. That would be bad, but what do you do?

"No, we aren't taking any more colonists this year."
"Then we'll dump them out the airlock and you can clean up later."

It's predictable that a state would try to expand. And as we have seen in the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, if you can control the cities everything else will fall into line. So it's only reasonable that a government would try to control Ceres first, and then expand control to all the mining claims etc. Can they do it? Well, can they do it physically? They might simply not have the logistics. That can happen but it doesn't tell the story I want to hear. Can they do it psychologically? Can the anarchists do what it takes to stay free, even when it might appear more profitable or safer to cave in? Can the soldiers maintain their morale when it's completely clear they are doing evil and that they can have great lives as anarchists instead? Etc.

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I honestly don't have high expectations for the author's ability to step up to that challenge. It's going to be bad. It's going to rely mostly on them being incompetent buffoons who shouldn't even have been able to survive their first use of a zero-G toilet without drowning let alone become anything resembling proficient with any form of weapon or sharp implement.

We can wait and see. At the beginning of the story he presented a cartoon nanny state society, where it seemed everybody was afraid to break the law but it was all punishment, no reward. There was no particular reason for him to make the nanny-state realistic, because it was only the launching-point to get to the AnCap society. So that doesn't at all imply he'd make the invading army incompetent, except of course that they will be hampered by incompetent orders from home, as most invading armies have been since the invention of the telegraph at least.

Big.Swede on February 06, 2011, 10:06:26 am
I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

Spelling is dependant of language. In sweden, for example, it is spelled Irak. Now i know it is spelled Iraq in English, but im fairly well versed in my second language. (With some spelling errors i admit.) But i have full understanding for perhaps falling back to native langauge spelling if they are unsure.

Do you know what native language Sams has? I dont. So what you did was pretty much the equailent of me complaining on you for spelling Smorgasbord without the propper rather than O, which is pretty much pointless. (Will be interesting to see if the forum can handle that very Swedish letter. :) )
"Im purely a layman, wondering from a laymans point of view."

Holt on February 06, 2011, 10:26:00 am
He gave one interpretation of how it works, and from my experience his interpretation is not contradicted by the facts although there are other ways to look at it.

My daughters got a lot of operant conditioning in the first couple of years. The students got rewarded for staying in their seats and not causing disturbances and obeying simple commands. At first it was direct rewards like candy, then it switched to green slips that they could stockpile and weekly turn in for badges and cheap toys. The kid who got too man red slips was in trouble and my youngest daughter talked about him, she was proud that she'd only gotten two red slips total, one when another kid tried to talk to her in class and one when she dropped her books.

The smartest 10% of the students according to standardized tests get to go to special schools where they supposedly learn more. My sister's son did that and hated it. They got a whole lot of material and a couple hours homework every night. My kids didn't want to go, they wanted to stay with their friends, so they got put in an alternate program where every week or two somebody comes to their school to teach them critical thinking skills. I have reviewed the material they bring home from that. So far it looks basicly competent but the pace is very slow. She teaches them that categories are things they get to choose for their own needs and apply to the world, and that names reflect the categories they choose. My thought is that the other 90% need that lesson more than the ones who get it, but on the other hand these are the ones whose parents will be most tolerant of it.

Making sure children behave in school isn't a bad thing you know? Even when education was the sole preserve of the wealthy who could afford to hire some educated fellow to teach their children, this tutor would still have to spend a lot of time and effort making sure the children behaved. Why? Because children won't sit still and listen unless you either make them or get their attention.

As for the extra classes, such is education in our world. You can say by all means try to teach everyone the extra stuff but they won't all be able to understand it. Some simply are incapable while others the amount of time expended on helping them wouldn't be worth it or would leave them far behind everyone else. Plus like you mentioned in more puritan areas you'd have parental backlash.

They could do tremendous damage that way, but they wouldn't nearly kill everybody. Lots of people on Ceres have pressure suits and would be using them for their work. And there are lots more people on ships and other places. If Ceres didn't function it would take a long time for the others to die from lack of things they get from Ceres, and in the short run they would be extremely dangerous. I don't recall how spaceship engines work in this story, but isn't it plausible they would be nuclear engines that might convert to hydrogen bombs? Get a lot of people who know they're doomed and who might want revenge before they die and you don't want to be living in their enemy's capital city.

Honestly I think they'd get more than you think. The main city the story seems to center on has very few people in any form of suits and little in the way of sealed sections. Some would survive but with the environmental systems cut off they'd die off in short order. The people in the city itself would be fucked. Miners out in the middle of nowhere would come back to find the place taken over or they'd die sitting out there until their supplies run out. The spaceport would need to be secured yes but that's about it really.


Since we don't have any anarchist societies to compare against, this is sheer speculation. We can make predictions about what an anarchist society would have to be like, but without examples we're just guessing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anarchist_communities

Aren't I nice to you folks? A never ending font of knowledge it seems.
Funny thing about a lot of those listed though. Despite being "anarchists" they end up holding elections and choosing leaders. Cue the no true scotsman argument.


I could easily imagine it the other way round. A state society that could cheaply export criminals to the anarchists might prefer to do that to keeping them imprisoned. Cheaper that way. And if they have high unemployment, they would be glad to ship excess people out -- provided it doesn't cost too much. And political dissidents, including anarchists. The kicker is Terra's gravity well. At $10,000/pound it costs way too much and you might as well gold-plate anything you send up. At $100/pound it's still pretty expensive. Get a cheap way to export people and governments might send them out at a pretty good clip. They might send out emigrants faster than the anarchists can expand to provide for them. That would be bad, but what do you do?

"No, we aren't taking any more colonists this year."
"Then we'll dump them out the airlock and you can clean up later."


Good point. After all what better way to take over than to simply flood the opponents homes with your people. After a while they become the majority and you can simply walk in unopposed.

We can wait and see. At the beginning of the story he presented a cartoon nanny state society, where it seemed everybody was afraid to break the law but it was all punishment, no reward. There was no particular reason for him to make the nanny-state realistic, because it was only the launching-point to get to the AnCap society. So that doesn't at all imply he'd make the invading army incompetent, except of course that they will be hampered by incompetent orders from home, as most invading armies have been since the invention of the telegraph at least.

It's one of the things I really do hate about EFT and a lot of the stuff BHP put out in general. They're not very good at writing opponents or questioning the ideology they've set out to endorse. It's as if they are absolutely incapable of any form of perspective-taking, or if they are it's stunted. Insofar I don't think we've seen anyone who he's writing as "the bad guy" who isn't some variation on an idiot. Seems only anarchists get to be cool or intelligent or competent at anything.

J Thomas on February 06, 2011, 10:32:09 am

The majority however will not be wealthy. Such is the way of capitalism. For someone to be wealthy many others must not be.

That doesn't even take capitalism. It comes from the meaning of "wealthy".

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Also remember that quite a few of these "centers of power" will try to reach a compromise/deal with the invading state, probably selling out the others in return for more power or simple survival.

That depends on how well the invaders do at finding those people and negotiating with them. Sometimes it takes a long time. 140 footsoldiers are not likely to do much of that. So now, how much does it look like the first 4 were supposed to start an incident, and the government announces that it's sending in soldiers as a response to the provocation? To protect the sanctity of Terran feminists, say?

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Then you will have the non-wealthy to contend with who will probably use the chaos as an excuse to get revenge on the wealthy who have exploited them (again woo capitalism).

That's possible. On the other hand, what if the non-wealthy don't feel exploited? If there's a labor shortage and plenty of everything but labor, there could be plenty of rich people who provide grubstakes at reasonable rates, and then with hard work the new people get rich enough to themselves extend grubstakes. When there's more than enough of everything to go around -- except labor -- why would anybody feel exploited? With a labor surplus you take a bad deal because it's the best you can do, and you have a choice between gratitude for getting the grinding low-wage job when others get nothing, or you can feel exploited because you got a bad deal. With a labor shortage you don't need to take a bad deal -- take the best deal you can get and it will be pretty good.

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Also outnumbered, the ones who decide to fight will be massively outnumbered and may not even have popular support.

The devil is in the details. If the soldiers don't do anything outrageous, a lot of people will mind their own business. If the soldiers get a lot of people upset at them, people will cheer the guys who shoot them and might give them that ultimate praise -- money. Etc. I don't know what will happen in the story.

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I doubt Reggie will find support among the common workers considering his wealth. The bottom rungs of Ceres (inevitably the most numerous)

Whoah. In third world nations the bottom rungs are the most numerous. For a reasonable time the USA had a middle-class society where the bottom rungs were not the most numerous at all. It's only as we slip toward third-world status that the middle class slides toward poverty. Would a hypothetical AnCap society have a lot of poor people or a lot of middle-class? I dunno. If the society was expanding fast with immigration, they might have a lot of poor people who would each become middle-class within 20 years or less, to be replaced by even more immigrants. That wouldn't leave poor people upset at Reggie.

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would probably support a takeover in the event it happened as the invaders would be bringing improvements in their living conditions. The middle and upper class of Ceres however would be firmly against it as they have something to loose, but history shows you can't have a rebellion without the workers on your side.

Old history might not apply. In the USA "workers" are dwindling away, leaving us with a gap between the chronicly unemployed and the middle-class white-collar workers. I don't know how it would be in an AnCap society, or this AnCap society in particular.

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Every government strives to appease or control the workers for the simple reason that they need them. Without the worker they have nothing except for a bunch of soft cunts who can't handle anything more strenuous than typing.

Again, that's kind of outdated. More and more the US government depends on white-collar workers who work out in their spare time, and also ex-prisoners who worked out in their copious spare time.

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As for the Iraq situation. They're not fighting to be anarchists. They're fighting for their society, way of life, to be free of the USA, etc.
I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

So an invading army would need to persuade people that their society and way of life were not under threat, and they would be free of the government?

I can't take the spelling too seriously. I have a little more confidence in people talking about Iraq when they can find it on a map, but really the map isn't so important if they aren't going there. And it doesn't matter whether they say Eye-rack or Eee-Rock either. That only tells you who they listen to.

Somebody who seems clueless ten times in a row might have just the insight you need at number eleven. So if you're going to pay attention to them at all you might as well consider each idea on its own merit.

sams on February 06, 2011, 11:06:47 am

The majority however will not be wealthy. Such is the way of capitalism. For someone to be wealthy many others must not be.

lol what ? Sorry you would be right if there was a fixated quantity of wealth which must be divided by someone ... but in real life wealth is created, therefore your afirmation is wrong.

For some to be wealthy doesn't depend on many others not being.

Also remember that quite a few of these "centers of power" will try to reach a compromise/deal with the invading state, probably selling out the others in return for more power or simple survival.

I don't need to remenber, I have read The Prince of Maquiaveli, which is a short guide of how going about conquering and subjugating people ... after all only an idiot would invade a country without having an internal centre of power collaborating with him.

Then you will have the non-wealthy to contend with who will probably use the chaos as an excuse to get revenge on the wealthy who have exploited them (again woo capitalism).
Also outnumbered, the ones who decide to fight will be massively outnumbered and may not even have popular support. I doubt Reggie will find support among the common workers considering his wealth. The bottom rungs of Ceres (inevitably the most numerous) would probably support a takeover in the event it happened as the invaders would be bringing improvements in their living conditions. The middle and upper class of Ceres however would be firmly against it as they have something to loose, but history shows you can't have a rebellion without the workers on your side.

Pure Marxist gibberish, sorry mate but wealth is created, there is no fixed quantity of it ... since that bitch called Marx started weeping to this day wealth increased exponentially.

The concept of exploitation you raise is based on the flawed and stupid concept of Marxian value, which is false. So is the concept of class you raise, which is also false.

Revise your concepts and then try making an argument with valid basis ... The whole class warfare gibberish is simply false.

Every government strives to appease or control the workers for the simple reason that they need them. Without the worker they have nothing except for a bunch of soft cunts who can't handle anything more strenuous than typing.

Every government don't give a damn about ''the worker'', what they need is a mob to lob at the producers ... like Stalin used to do : Beware Comrad, I'm the only one between you and the pitch forks.

As for the Iraq situation. They're not fighting to be anarchists. They're fighting for their society, way of life, to be free of the USA, etc.
I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

Completly beside the point, which is that without the support of a faction within Irak, the Americans would have simply lost the war by exhaustion ... independently of what they are fighting for.

I'd take you a bit more seriously if you could actually spell Iraq.

I speak Portuguese and French, being that some words with equal pronunciation sometimes prompted incidents of cross language writing  ;D

J Thomas on February 06, 2011, 11:16:37 am

Making sure children behave in school isn't a bad thing you know?

Sure, and treating the kids like lab rats or pigeons to do it may seem a little creepy but it works efficiently.

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As for the extra classes, such is education in our world. You can say by all means try to teach everyone the extra stuff but they won't all be able to understand it.

I'd prefer the smart kids get taught to find general principles than just bury them in facts. If you want to choose which kids to bury in detail then don't use intelligence tests to choose them, use a test that picks the kids who're good at that.

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Some simply are incapable while others the amount of time expended on helping them wouldn't be worth it or would leave them far behind everyone else. Plus like you mentioned in more puritan areas you'd have parental backlash.

Even in liberal places the lower classes tend to be raised more authoritarian, and hate to hear their kids do critical thinking.

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They could do tremendous damage that way, but they wouldn't nearly kill everybody. Lots of people on Ceres have pressure suits and would be using them for their work. And there are lots more people on ships and other places. If Ceres didn't function it would take a long time for the others to die from lack of things they get from Ceres, and in the short run they would be extremely dangerous. I don't recall how spaceship engines work in this story, but isn't it plausible they would be nuclear engines that might convert to hydrogen bombs? Get a lot of people who know they're doomed and who might want revenge before they die and you don't want to be living in their enemy's capital city.

Honestly I think they'd get more than you think. The main city the story seems to center on has very few people in any form of suits and little in the way of sealed sections.

What do you base that on? It makes sense to me that it would be divided into lots of sections that could be shut off from each other easily. First because it makes obvious engineering sense, and obvious economic sense. If nothing else, if you can't keep sections closed off how can you meter the air and charge neighborhoods for it? But that hasn't been important to the story so far. Are individual homes and apartments arranged to self-seal during a pressure drop? Do they have emergency air supply? How would we know?

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Some would survive but with the environmental systems cut off they'd die off in short order. The people in the city itself would be fracked. Miners out in the middle of nowhere would come back to find the place taken over or they'd die sitting out there until their supplies run out. The spaceport would need to be secured yes but that's about it really.

Remember that they have instantaneous tanglenet communication. If somebody kills off Ceres everybody in the Belt will know within about 8 hours, as soon as the soundest sleepers wake up. I doubt they'd take it kindly. So it looks to me like a threat of last resort. In the story there's a tremendous investment in the Belt which is paying off at a high rate. Terra would strongly prefer to control that investment, not destroy it.

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Since we don't have any anarchist societies to compare against, this is sheer speculation. We can make predictions about what an anarchist society would have to be like, but without examples we're just guessing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anarchist_communities

Funny thing about a lot of those listed though. Despite being "anarchists" they end up holding elections and choosing leaders. Cue the no true scotsman argument.

Yes, No True Scotsman. I have trouble taking Iceland seriously when more than half the population was enslaved. Most of the rest were started and existed in warzones.

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I could easily imagine it the other way round. A state society that could cheaply export criminals to the anarchists might prefer to do that to keeping them imprisoned. Cheaper that way. And if they have high unemployment, they would be glad to ship excess people out -- provided it doesn't cost too much. And political dissidents, including anarchists. The kicker is Terra's gravity well. At $10,000/pound it costs way too much and you might as well gold-plate anything you send up. At $100/pound it's still pretty expensive. Get a cheap way to export people and governments might send them out at a pretty good clip. They might send out emigrants faster than the anarchists can expand to provide for them. That would be bad, but what do you do?

"No, we aren't taking any more colonists this year."
"Then we'll dump them out the airlock and you can clean up later."


Good point. After all what better way to take over than to simply flood the opponents homes with your people. After a while they become the majority and you can simply walk in unopposed.

On the other hand, if you have an ideology that spreads easily, you can indoctrinate the immigrants and they don't become a statist majority, they instead strengthen the locals. And depending on how you do it, deporting them and leaving them to survive on the mercy of strangers may not increase their loyalty to you.

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We can wait and see. At the beginning of the story he presented a cartoon nanny state society, where it seemed everybody was afraid to break the law but it was all punishment, no reward. There was no particular reason for him to make the nanny-state realistic, because it was only the launching-point to get to the AnCap society. So that doesn't at all imply he'd make the invading army incompetent, except of course that they will be hampered by incompetent orders from home, as most invading armies have been since the invention of the telegraph at least.

It's one of the things I really do hate about EFT and a lot of the stuff BHP put out in general. They're not very good at writing opponents or questioning the ideology they've set out to endorse. It's as if they are absolutely incapable of any form of perspective-taking, or if they are it's stunted. Insofar I don't think we've seen anyone who he's writing as "the bad guy" who isn't some variation on an idiot. Seems only anarchists get to be cool or intelligent or competent at anything.

I have to grant you that one. But then, it's literally a cartoon. There's a limit how much complexity you can get into a limited number of picture frames. They're good at what they do, and if you can do something different that's worth doing they might give you a platform to try. Or if you disagree with them too much, they might not. I dunno.

It occurs to me that if you would write a statist comic that is presented well, that describes the tragic necessity of government, Sandy might write his disagreement and the implicit dialogue could improve both products. You could write up a proposal to BHP and see whether they'd go for it. It would be a whole lot of work for you, though.

spudit on February 06, 2011, 11:38:09 am
Interesting how this page, #3, is half quotes.

Patriotism of the poor? I refer you to the Confederate States of America where the white trash little guys allegedly fought and died in great numbers for the evil slave holding elite. Then and there even slaves felt a level of patriotism.

Or the Great Patriotic war, did all those Russians die for Stalin?

Hate or envy Reggie for his wealth, hell no, emulate him! In that there and then, it shouldn't be hard to try.

If there is a fight it will be tight quarters fighting where only so many people fit. It would be more like a police raid than Gettysburg and these folks are not going to be surprised.
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sams on February 06, 2011, 12:04:12 pm
Interesting how this page, #3, is half quotes.

Patriotism of the poor? I refer you to the Confederate States of America where the white trash little guys allegedly fought and died in great numbers for the evil slave holding elite. Then and there even slaves felt a level of patriotism.

Walter E Williams supported this thesis, which is plausible.

Or the Great Patriotic war, did all those Russians die for Stalin?

There is something about all your family being executed if you defect and yourself being hang if you retreat ... the soviets made use dirty tactics against their own troops. At Stalingrad cannon fodder were executed if they ever retreated without order and could only be excused if they were shot multiple times

So it wasn't much a question of patriotism

Brugle on February 06, 2011, 12:22:55 pm
I have trouble taking Iceland seriously when more than half the population was enslaved. Most of the rest were started and existed in warzones.
J Thomas, do you have any evidence for those assertions?  It's been several years since I read about saga-era Iceland, but if I remember correctly there very few slaves and much less violence than in mainland Europe (which did have frequent wars).

spudit on February 06, 2011, 01:00:58 pm
As to Stalingrad, some of both, but not every recruit was stupid cannon fodder driven to slaughter. The Russian hatred of Germans did not start with or happen at the whim of crazy Comrade Stalin, whom I certainly don't endorse; the peasants would have fought just as hard and willingly for the Czar had he been around. They did it twice before. If invaded they'd do the same today for Putin and his figurehead, Medved is it? Moral of the story, don't invade Russia, them folks is magnificently crazy nuts.

I own and treasure a Mosin Nagant M38 carbine made in 1941, who used it and where I have no idea, never will. It could have been at Stalingrad. it could have been used by slave soldiers but by driven cannon fodder or by volunteers. It was used to repel an invader and that'll do for me.

Russia as a culture not a country is maybe a thousand years old. Akihito's family has been defining Japan for almost 2,000 years. Of course China was old even then. Definitions change but every nation knows who they are and cares about it.  Hell, General Lee felt first allegiance to Virginia, an infant culture of a mere 300 years.

A wolf pack howls we are here and this ours and as Sov Rosenberg pointed out we on some level have our own packs.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 01:05:59 pm by spudit »
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Brugle on February 06, 2011, 01:08:26 pm
I assume that in the EFT universe, Earth's governments are similar to ours.  In particular, there will be government schools whose primary purpose is turning intelligent children into obedient citizens.  Without government schools, most people of Ceres will be better educated (and have much better critical thinking skills) than most people of Earth.  The government schools (if effective) should make the soldiers willing to die for the state, but the people of Ceres will be defending their homes and loved ones, which should compensate.  And there are advantages to being defenders with a detailed knowledge of the "terrain".

Oh wow. Is that what schools in the USA are like?
frack me sideways I am so glad I don't live in a shit heap like that.
I mean seriously now, find me a normal school that sets out to do what you're saying there. I know British ones don't as not once have I had a "WE ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE!" statement thrown out in the classroom by the teacher. Hell not even when I was at a school paid for and ran by the DoD for their families (back when my father was on a Germany tour).

Of course not.  Most people who work in government schools have no animus towards children (at least when they start their careers), and many want to help children.  But how much can they do in a system that is designed to prevent education (especially when they don't realize it)?  Not much--only those who are willing to buck the system can make a significant difference, and only for a few children.

If you were told by a MacDonalds employee that a Big Mac is the perfect food and should be eaten several times each day, would you accept that uncritically?  When you are told by a government-licensed teacher reading from a government-certified textbook following a government-approved curriculum that government schools are good for children, do you accept that uncritically?

If you want to learn about government schools in the US (which, as far as I can tell, are much like government schools elsewhere), read almost anything by John Taylor Gatto (NY state teacher of the year a while back).  Note: I don't accept all of Gatto's analysis, but his historical research appears to be excellent.

Making sure children behave in school isn't a bad thing you know?
Preventing children from aggressing against other children is good.  But forcing children to endure hours of mind-numbing boredom every day, when they'd prefer to be doing almost anything else (including learning), is bad.  Very bad.

Most young children are incredibly eager to understand the "adult world".  Government schools have several functions, but the primary one is to instill automatic unthinking obedience, which requires the suppression of the desire to learn.

 

anything