macsnafu on February 04, 2011, 08:48:35 am
As Ceres has no government, and thus, no central power structure, any occupying force will have a hard time actually "occupying" Ceres, short of having at least one soldier per Ceresian, which would require a very large number of military forces.  They might easily occupy a portion of Ceres, but would have trouble expanding that occupation, especially if the Ceresians start giving them trouble over it.
Still, as much as an attempted military occupation seems the most likely action to me, the idea of a more indirect approach, by either or both sides, does sound intriguing.

I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

terry_freeman on February 04, 2011, 09:22:36 am
Ireland held off the Brits for a thousand years; as others have observed, it is difficult to conquer an armed society which has no central ruling structure.

If this were an attempt to slowly subvert Ceres by offering mercenaries and arbitration services, wouldn't they be far more subtle, infiltrating by twos and threes, rather than by regiments?

I'm not surprised that the forces do not immediately begin hostilities. Yes, they'd catch people unaware at the spaceport - but they would not get much further; it might be possible for a few armed people to bottle them up at spaceport exits, until reinforcements arrive.

Deserters? Perhaps.

Recruiters?

I'm going to wait and see.
 

spudit on February 04, 2011, 09:38:18 am
Don't sweat the spoilers, only the great Gawds of Ceres, you know who you are, can do that.

Another book along these lines to offer, The Moon is Down by some non SF writer type guy named Steinbeck. It is said to own a copy in occupied Europe would have cost you your life.

No pressure suits that I can see, don't leave home to pick a fight in space without one.

Lastly

Maybe they are assassins sent to kill everyone on Ceres, you know, Cereal killers
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eli.civilunrest on February 04, 2011, 12:14:37 pm
I'm looking forward to seeing how effectively a mature AnCap society can help all those soldiers escape from terra.  I expect some rowdyness, but I'm hoping that Sandy and Scott show us that our system is not just more efficient (like in Heinlein's stories) but better.  I'm hoping that is why this arc started out with a demonstration of restraint.

eli.civilunrest on February 04, 2011, 12:15:15 pm
And yeah, this arc is awesome.  Even the old people part  ;D

SandySandfort on February 04, 2011, 12:59:14 pm
And yeah, this arc is awesome.  Even the old people part  ;D

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     -- Julius "Groucho" Marx (1890-1977)

spudit on February 04, 2011, 06:43:18 pm
I see no patches on the soldiers other than one lightning bolt on each of the spokesman's collars. Is he a lieutenant? Harris' navy bunch had lots of them.

The boss guy has a grenade on his gear harness too, so much for precision specific target only weapons.
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GlennWatson on February 04, 2011, 11:10:54 pm
I am not sure if this board considers is bad form to make guesses about the plot but I like to live dangerously so here is my prediction for this storyline.

I predict the Earth soldiers will move into the hotel and from there move on to take possession of large businesses and transportation hubs.  The army will simply announce that Ceres has been annexed/liberated by Earth and the people of Ceres have been "freed" from their evil rulers and will now be "protected" by EarthGov, for a fee/tax of about 90%.

The attack will be ham-fisted and incompetent but dangerous nonetheless.  Several solders will be killed by their own incompetence but so will some innocents on Ceres.

The citizens will respond with precision, first moving their vulnerable members to safety then counter attacking using guerilla tactics.  I expect explosions and sniping. 

The fighting will be desperate until help arrives from Mars in the form of the rejuvenated king and his wife.

Whatever happens I am sure it will be good.

Plane on February 05, 2011, 12:26:30 pm
I note that the soldiers can march in light gravity without tripping each other.

I wonder where they practiced that?

GlennWatson on February 05, 2011, 04:25:07 pm
They did seem good at marching.  I wonder if that is meant as a hint of their martial ability or a hint that their reactions will be too regimented to be effective against free men.

It seems clearer than ever now that the girl at the bar was intent on provoking an incident.  This incident would be justification for Earth's intervention on Ceres.  Since no incident occurred what justification for the invasion will be asserted I wonder?

Anyway, I can't wait for Monday to see what happens.

sams on February 05, 2011, 04:35:08 pm
They did seem good at marching.  I wonder if that is meant as a hint of their martial ability or a hint that their reactions will be too regimented to be effective against free men.

It seems clearer than ever now that the girl at the bar was intent on provoking an incident.  This incident would be justification for Earth's intervention on Ceres.  Since no incident occurred what justification for the invasion will be asserted I wonder?

Anyway, I can't wait for Monday to see what happens.

You should read Irving Hitler's War first chapter, in it our little short crazy dictator raised more than 20 000 men for the sole tasks of provoking whole strings incidents before Munich and to invade Poland.

A Big Ceres anarchists attacks UW peacekeepers ! and you have more troops moving to attack Ceres and dispatched with what rest of the Terran fleet  ;D

Will they succeed ? I don't think so, Ceres anarchy rests on the harmonic balance of Non-agression, arbitration and mutual respect. Having the troops Violate the first, then refuse arbitration and the whole of Ceres would move against them ... if they don't then anarchy will die

spudit on February 05, 2011, 07:26:49 pm
Remember when Libby said she was meeting a fast burner from Luna, the ship with the troops aboard? Is that where they practiced marching?

UW peacekeepers? They look to be in an army, yes but is it for sure the UW's? Again no unit patches on the spokesman, not even a merit badge. Why?
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GlennWatson on February 05, 2011, 07:28:59 pm
"Ceres anarchy rests on the harmonic balance of Non-agression, arbitration and mutual respect. Having the troops Violate the first, then refuse arbitration and the whole of Ceres would move against them ... if they don't then anarchy will die"

The writer might agree with you and make this happen but in the real world would a small anarchy be able to withstand a concerted military action by a more traditional government?  I don't know but I fear they would not.

I think plotting a successful defence of Ceres in a reasonable and believable way will be the author's biggest challenge yet.

spudit on February 05, 2011, 07:53:25 pm
Aggression?

So far I hear a lot of please and thank you from their leader.

Scary stuff indeed.

Time will tell.
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Holt on February 05, 2011, 09:27:49 pm
I assume that in the EFT universe, Earth's governments are similar to ours.  In particular, there will be government schools whose primary purpose is turning intelligent children into obedient citizens.  Without government schools, most people of Ceres will be better educated (and have much better critical thinking skills) than most people of Earth.  The government schools (if effective) should make the soldiers willing to die for the state, but the people of Ceres will be defending their homes and loved ones, which should compensate.  And there are advantages to being defenders with a detailed knowledge of the "terrain".

Oh wow. Is that what schools in the USA are like?
Fuck me sideways I am so glad I don't live in a shit heap like that.
I mean seriously now, find me a normal school that sets out to do what you're saying there. I know British ones don't as not once have I had a "WE ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE!" statement thrown out in the classroom by the teacher. Hell not even when I was at a school paid for and ran by the DoD for their families (back when my father was on a Germany tour).

As Ceres has no government, and thus, no central power structure, any occupying force will have a hard time actually "occupying" Ceres, short of having at least one soldier per Ceresian, which would require a very large number of military forces.  They might easily occupy a portion of Ceres, but would have trouble expanding that occupation, especially if the Ceresians start giving them trouble over it.
Still, as much as an attempted military occupation seems the most likely action to me, the idea of a more indirect approach, by either or both sides, does sound intriguing.



Oooor they could just go "Right enough is enough. MEN! SUITS ON!" and then they pop a few environment seals and let the anarchists all die. After that it's a simple sweep job followed by repairs and bringing in new colonists. After all they obviously don't want the people.

I am not sure if this board considers is bad form to make guesses about the plot but I like to live dangerously so here is my prediction for this storyline.

I predict the Earth soldiers will move into the hotel and from there move on to take possession of large businesses and transportation hubs.  The army will simply announce that Ceres has been annexed/liberated by Earth and the people of Ceres have been "freed" from their evil rulers and will now be "protected" by EarthGov, for a fee/tax of about 90%.

The attack will be ham-fisted and incompetent but dangerous nonetheless.  Several solders will be killed by their own incompetence but so will some innocents on Ceres.

The citizens will respond with precision, first moving their vulnerable members to safety then counter attacking using guerilla tactics.  I expect explosions and sniping. 

The fighting will be desperate until help arrives from Mars in the form of the rejuvenated king and his wife.

Whatever happens I am sure it will be good.


If that happens I will set out to purchase "Big Head Press" and rename it to "Anarchists dissociated from reality Press".
Seriously that would be incredibly shit tier. About as believable as any propaganda piece.

The writer might agree with you and make this happen but in the real world would a small anarchy be able to withstand a concerted military action by a more traditional government?  I don't know but I fear they would not.

I think plotting a successful defence of Ceres in a reasonable and believable way will be the author's biggest challenge yet.

Firstly I doubt any small anarchist society would be able to survive if it was in competition with any form of state. Even a big one would only survive for a while. A state fulfils certain needs for people that aren't fulfilled in an anarchist society. Over time the anarchist society will bleed people to the state society (barring it's some kind of insane society where Hitler clones run around eating babies and raping kittens) and the state society will slowly expand, pushing the anarchists out of their territory.

I honestly don't have high expectations for the author's ability to step up to that challenge. It's going to be bad. It's going to rely mostly on them being incompetent buffoons who shouldn't even have been able to survive their first use of a zero-G toilet without drowning let alone become anything resembling proficient with any form of weapon or sharp implement.


Aggression?

So far I hear a lot of please and thank you from their leader.

Scary stuff indeed.

Time will tell.

Yeah you'd be surprised how most military folk have good manners.

 

anything