Apollo-Soyuz on January 13, 2011, 02:46:05 am
I suppose I should have seen it when it was reviled that Carlos was carrying a Desert Eagle. That gun has quite a fan following as 50 AE is a hugely powerful round. Lotsa bravado.

I would not attempt to even shoot the thing. Not without a Ransom Rest

The gun is awfully heavy here on earth, but I suppose that's no issue on Ceres. The neat thing about the Desert Eagle is that it's easy to swap calibers with just a barrel, bolt and magazine change. 

If he has long conditioned muscle memory from training, I might not swap the gun out. It says the gun can take .357 mag with drop-in parts.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably carry a Smith & Wesson  Model 610 Revolver, but put .40 short & weak in the moon clips. I'd also swap out the grips for something custom, with a grippy rubber outer and a lead or depleted uranium core to add more mass and reduce felt recoil.

I could also disable that stupid S&W key lock and never have to worry about legal liability.

Big.Swede on January 13, 2011, 04:01:32 am
Yeah, i think a revolver would be the better choice for a low/no G enviroment too. Ofcourse there would be some experimentation and refinement of the current semi-autos which would (probably) make them as reliable as here on earth, and then my opinion might change again.

Still, a big solid revolver, say a S&W K frame .357 with a short barrel, loaded with slow .38 special Glaser Safety Slugs or similar. That would be my chocice untill i can verify the trustworthiness of a semi-auto in low/no gravity, and possibly hard vacuum and extremem temperatures as well.

Yes, this might not have enough punch to be realy effective as a self defense round, ill bow to the wisdom of others when it comes to that. BUT! I am personaly responsible for anything that bullet does untill it comes to a complete halt, and id rather take my chances with a "weak" round than risk causing an explosive decompression or having a magnum round ricochetting around an enclosed space full with people.
"Im purely a layman, wondering from a laymans point of view."

J Thomas on January 13, 2011, 05:24:12 am

If he has long conditioned muscle memory from training, I might not swap the gun out. It says the gun can take .357 mag with drop-in parts.

I may be wrong, but I expect he'd need to train new muscle memory for low-gee.

If he's standing with good felt shoes on velcro, one leg far ahead of the other, he can probably shoot and the front leg is pulled up against the velcro while the back leg pushes down.

If he doesn't have velcro, then the tendency would be to spin backward, probably slowly. Unless he has his back to something solid.

If he can shoot in a line through his center of gravity then the effect is to push him back without rotating.

It's all going to be a different feel than shooting in high gravity.

For all I know it wouldn't make much difference for the first shot. You do everything normally and notice the consequences later. It might make a big difference for a second shot.


Apollo-Soyuz on January 13, 2011, 06:31:47 pm

I may be wrong, but I expect he'd need to train new muscle memory for low-gee.


Correct and good point. I didn't notice he said he was new in town. He's probably new to that gun too if he's from earth.

A well tuned port job can reduce muzzle flip. The DE has a gas system, so again this type of firearm would be easy to add mass to. Pistols with a blow-back action have a balance between the mass of the slide and the cartridge used.

Maybe lasers would be used so you could draw and aim from the hip for  better control? A lot of people don't like 'em in combat, but even some of them use them as training aids.

Thinking of the ock implants, you could even have a wireless camera-sight on the gun and maybe tap into your optic nerve.

SandySandfort on January 13, 2011, 07:21:53 pm
A well tuned port job can reduce muzzle flip. The DE has a gas system, so again this type of firearm would be easy to add mass to. Pistols with a blow-back action have a balance between the mass of the slide and the cartridge used.

Maybe I missed something here, but I am completely at a loss as to why one would want to add mass to an already massive gun like the Desert Eagle. What would be the benefit?

spudit on January 13, 2011, 08:11:54 pm
I suspect mass is not the answer since we'd just want it for the inertia, a quality that must get old there. Forget Carlos' hand howitzer for now and before Ed tells us what's best, let me chime in. I like a light weight carry weapon, a polymer 45, because weight gets old here too and I believe the stress of the moment will do wonders for my grip strength, come a fight.

The ideal micro gravity weapon would be recoilless, clearly hard to do with a pistol.  So porting for sure and then some, we'd see pistols with every recoil reducing widget awailable, for sure advanced muzzle brakes.

Might there be a latter day Gyro Jet?

Harrison's beloved Stainless Steal Rat used a recoilless 75 cal pistol, I wonder if it could work.

For stopping power without over penetration, I am a big slow bullet guy. If over penetration is the biggest deal, something frangible or even exolosive might do. This is the same world line where Reggie stuck a nuke in his pants, compact explosives they got.

Let me guess, Ed advises Carlos to keep his big gun but load it down to an over sized 45 ACP, just enough to work the action.  Big gun, big builet but the impact foot pounds is more pounds than feet per second.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:44:39 pm by spudit »
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ZeissIkon on January 13, 2011, 08:14:15 pm
A well tuned port job can reduce muzzle flip. The DE has a gas system, so again this type of firearm would be easy to add mass to. Pistols with a blow-back action have a balance between the mass of the slide and the cartridge used.

A properly designed port system, with the gas directly backward as well as up, could also significantly reduce actual (as opposed to felt) recoil.  With a fixed-barrel pistol like the Desert Eagle, these ports could be placed in multiple locations along the length of the barrel, trading off velocity for controllability (though you couldn't make a true recoilless if you're going to stick with standard cartridges, there might well be guns designed and built in the Belt that are effectively recoilless, using perforated cartridges like the artillery pieces now mostly used for avalance control).

In fact, IMO, the biggest problem with a Desert Eagle in Ceres (aside from the excessive range issue, easily corrected with bullets that contain an internal fragmenting charge that will break them up into shards too small to do harm if they continue to spin at rifling velocity for more than, say, one second) is the same problem they have on Earth -- the grip, in order to house long cartridges like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum, is just too darned long for people with average or smaller hands (especially males, like me, with "short index finger").

My preference for carry if I'm going to Ceres?  Well, I'd probably have to buy it or have it built there (and how do people get all these guns on Earth to bring out, anyway, in the oppressive UW?): a short, large-caliber, well-ported smoothbore revolver firing tungsten shot.  Multiple holes in a space suit are much more effective than one, shot increases likelihood of a stopping hit at ranges beyond a few feet, and shot is much less likely to penetrate structures beyond a few feet.  Plus, a revolver is better than a semi-auto, in my opinion, because in the event of a misfire, you just pull the trigger again.  As a challenge for the class, consider how you'd build a revolver to carry, say, ten rounds of large caliber without a cylinder the size of a soup can.  Hint: there's a 20-shot .22 revolver design already out there...

shred on January 13, 2011, 08:48:38 pm
The 50 AE DE's a pussycat.  The people that get klonked in the head with one on Youtube are pretty much either clueless or faking it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHI8LkFsIyY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeMyfJ3J0jc

Crappy carry gun even with open carry though.  More so in a low G environment.  I'd go for an integrally-suppressed dot-sighted gun if I lived somewhere with no gun laws and enough time to perfect the technology of both..  The suppressor could help mitigate rocket-effects as well.   ;D


spudit on January 13, 2011, 08:58:10 pm
Ya know,

Freed of all the feral guvmnt foolishness about allowed guns, the field really opens up. With only Newton's laws to comply with whatever works is legal, perforated barrels, silencers, stubby shotguns. Yep, a 12 gauge howdah pistol or an auto pistol eating low recoil versions of the 12 gauge Aguila Minishell.      Big bullets for big holes, me like.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 10:39:40 pm by spudit »
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Scott on January 13, 2011, 10:32:25 pm
In The Probability Broach, L. Neil's heroine Clarissa MacDougall carries an electric fleshette gun, which shoots hundreds of small, triangular needles at high speed in a second, using a magnetic rail.  I wonder how well something like that would do on Ceres.

spudit on January 13, 2011, 10:48:22 pm
Velocity means long range and high penetration unless the needles were some sort of soft, easily deformed and dense metal so the energy stays in the BG. Yuck! they might bend on inpact and keep going, bent nails at mach 10. Good old lead would do the job though gold or silver might be cost effective in the belt, lower toxicity and there could be werewolves in space. Dunno. Ain't my strip man..
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NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on January 13, 2011, 11:24:50 pm
Am I missing something?  It seems to me that the proper approach would be a large slug (which could imply large caliber) with a lighter cartridge load to keep the velocity down. The right combination would result in lower velocity, and balance the recoil and  strike force.

Thus, the Desert Eagle (or a similar gun with reduced mass) might be a good starting place, and the change made in the cartridge to balance it.


spudit on January 13, 2011, 11:50:04 pm
Agreed as to big and slow, and no major need for speed to get a flat trajectory indoors and with no gravity to speak of outdoors.

I bought some of those minishells with slugs. They are 1 3/4 inches long and 3/4 wide. Sans adult supervision,  I'd cut the charge and the recoil down to pistol scale and go into the custom meteor business.

Growing up on the South Side, I recall a neighbor who had a foot long double barrel left over from when he drove for a neighborhood folk hero named Capone. It was way cool on the sixties and still cool today.
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Apollo-Soyuz on January 14, 2011, 06:43:10 am
Maybe I missed something here, but I am completely at a loss as to why one would want to add mass to an already massive gun like the Desert Eagle. What would be the benefit?

Mass reduces felt recoil (at the expense of making it heaver, which I don't see as a problem on Ceres). Yes, inertia would be increased.

you can reduce "felt recoil" by increasing mass, spreading the recoil shock over a longer time span, or redirecting the gas produced to counter the force (porting, muzzle brake, etc). I guess spreading the recoil over a longer period would reduce the pain, but not decrease the total force applied.

There are also things like mercury recoil reducers other and funny cartridges-like tubes of weight like weights on springs. (Old time skeet shooters sometimes put a roll of dimes in a hole in the stock under the buttpad. If they were old enough, that roll of dimes is silver coinage)

Some people hate grip laser sights, some people only use them for training, but such a sight might let you draw and shoot from the hip with the piece closer to your center of mass.

Reduced loads in the Desert Eagle would work, but you would have to monkey with the gas system. I'd advice a good gunsmith too if this was a carry piece.

Finally, if everyone is using classic earth handguns, there's got to be some classic earth reloading gear setups somewhere. Weighing out the powder and funneling it into the brass would present some interesting but not insurmountable adaptations. 

Depleted uranium, with no government "war materials" restrictions, would be available to reloaders. In fact, I'd bet you would find slugs of high mass material attached to forks, cups, and other everyday objects just to help keep them in place.


Apollo-Soyuz on January 14, 2011, 06:56:23 am
Here's some jerk giving someone too small a too powerful handgun to shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJjaj7pXsA

I don't think she's faking it. This is also dangerous, as a second round could be fired by mistake while the gun was pointed in an unsafe direction.

Finally, being a jerk while giving someone their first firearm experience is a lousy way to get converts to our side.

 

anything