SandySandfort on January 10, 2011, 09:43:32 am
I was peripherally involved in an event that illustrates how wrong the pro-statism crowd is about AnCap. They try to limit the discussion to why AnCap would not take care of the disadvantaged, because, they claim, it would not be in their economic self-interest. Try this on for size.

Last night, I received an e-mail asking for my help to find a lawyer in my home state, Missouri. By the time I got back to my computer and responded, though, the parties in question had found a lawyer on their own, so they no longer needed a referral. Today I found out what was going on. Read about it here:

  http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2011/tle602-20110109-02.html

This is how the market anarchists I know behave. We are always willing to not only offer a helping hand to our friends, but to respond to help people they do not even know. Funny, it seems it is only the modern liberal statists who rarely want to get involved. In a market anarchy, freedom trumps the dollar.


mellyrn on January 10, 2011, 05:53:20 pm
OMG, awesome story!

I tried searching for Shaun Lee, to find a way to contribute.  I found this
http://dailypaul.com/node/153964
which has additional commentary by Jim Davidson, which also makes great reading.  And there's a link at the bottom for contributions.

Individual Sovereignty University -- I can't find it online.  Any ideas?

SandySandfort on January 10, 2011, 10:35:19 pm
Individual Sovereignty University -- I can't find it online.  Any ideas?

http://www.indsovu.com/tiki-index.php

KBCraig on January 11, 2011, 01:12:04 am
There have been numerous similar cases where calls for help were met with overwhelming response and support from the AnCap/Voluntaryist/Agorist communities. Porc-411, Twitter, Facebook, blogs, phone chains, email lists, etc., have all played a part in getting help to people who need it.

KBCraig on January 11, 2011, 01:45:35 am

Karadan on January 11, 2011, 08:30:52 am

  http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2011/tle602-20110109-02.html


Gee, who on earth could "a friend in Central America" possibly be?  ;)
Likely some crazed person who spreads propaganda in a subtle yet effective way in an attempt to both entertain and show people the good side of anarcocapitalism.  I'm sure they use the web for this medium, perhaps even going so far as to make a webcomic.  Uncivilized people, trying to convince and educate and persuade.  We all know the only civilized and logical way to convince people to change their government is to bomb the heck out of them and then occupy them with military forces.

P.S.  Awesome story.  Hope she gets her kids.  Will be interesting to see how this all turns out.  The biggest problem is likely to be obtaining proof that her injury was caused by her husband.  While the fact that he and his father obviously lied about the real cause, and the attempt to institutionalize her are like to work in her favor, it can still be difficult.  Well, legal issues in general are difficult actually.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 08:35:14 am by Karadan »

terry_freeman on January 11, 2011, 08:53:24 am
Heartwarming to hear about Shaun Lee's rescue.

I've noticed and been a part of numerous other efforts, big and small. Voluntary mutual aid plays a very large role in the libertarian community. With the economy as it is, many people are in need, and many others are pitching in.

spudit on January 11, 2011, 12:47:28 pm
Quote
Likely some crazed person who spreads propaganda in a subtle yet effective way in an attempt to both entertain and show people the good side of anarcocapitalism.  I'm sure they use the web for this medium, perhaps even going so far as to make a webcomic.  Uncivilized people, trying to convince and educate and persuade.  

Wait a minute, this fun stuff is supposed to be educational?  
I dunno about that.      

With the insanity in Arizona going on at the same time and the sneaking suspicion others will be judged by that nut job's actions, even educational good news is more than welcome. Thanks
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 03:36:05 pm by spudit »
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ContraryGuy on January 14, 2011, 09:05:54 am
I was peripherally involved in an event that illustrates how wrong the pro-statism crowd is about AnCap. They try to limit the discussion to why AnCap would not take care of the disadvantaged, because, they claim, it would not be in their economic self-interest. Try this on for size.

Last night, I received an e-mail asking for my help to find a lawyer in my home state, Missouri. By the time I got back to my computer and responded, though, the parties in question had found a lawyer on their own, so they no longer needed a referral. Today I found out what was going on. Read about it here:

  http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2011/tle602-20110109-02.html

This is how the market anarchists I know behave. We are always willing to not only offer a helping hand to our friends, but to respond to help people they do not even know. Funny, it seems it is only the modern liberal statists who rarely want to get involved. In a market anarchy, freedom trumps the dollar.

Hi Everyone,
As most of you know, I have been critical of  some of AnCaps principles and stated beliefs because I cant see how they'd work.
That said, I like to say also that this is a fantastic story of friends riding to the rescue.
You may notice, however, that the person documenting it has a website with a tenuous connection to Star Trek;  We Trekkies are a wide, diverse and friendly group.  We also tend to help out strangers and friends of friends, especially when they are in danger.

Now I suppose this guy might not be a Trekkie, it doesnt really matter.  With Facebook and a phone, you've got all the friends you need.
This guy says it was all due to the power of Libetarianism and the love of freedom.

Not so; it was done by the power of friends and friends of friends.  And Facebook.

Being a member of fandom, I have heard of dozens of similar stories and helped out in a couple of them.  It has nothing to do with AnCap, or Libertarianism.
It has to do with "Oh my gosh, a friend is in trouble; how can I help?"

So, yes, AnCap really is about the money; market anarchists (like Bernie Madoff and Enron) would have it no other way.

But.... score one for the good guys!

SandySandfort on January 14, 2011, 10:44:36 am
Ah, a Trekkie. That explains a lot.

As most of you know, I have been critical of  some of AnCaps principles and stated beliefs because I cant see how they'd work.

Your limited imagination is not an argument against market anarchy. You need to actually read about what you don't understand.

This guy says it was all due to the power of Libetarianism and the love of freedom.

You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. That is not what was said at all. Please re-read it. But to save you the trouble, I will rephrase it in terms you may be able to understand.

If all that matters to market anarchists is money (which is what several critics have tried to imply), then situations in which libertarians/AnCaps/market anarchists or whatever, help others without expectation of financial reward, would not exist. Got it now?

So, yes, AnCap really is about the money; market anarchists (like Bernie Madoff and Enron) would have it no other way.

It is tempting to think you are just stupid or ignorant to call Madoff and Enron examples of market anarchism. So I figure you are just being a mean-spirited troll. However, in the off chance that you really are that stupid or ignorant, I suggest you cure your ignorance by actually reading some good books about market anarchy. (Sorry, there isn't any cure I know of to address stupidity, if that is your affliction.)

ContraryGuy on January 14, 2011, 12:09:11 pm
Ah, a Trekkie. That explains a lot.

As most of you know, I have been critical of  some of AnCaps principles and stated beliefs because I cant see how they'd work.

Your limited imagination is not an argument against market anarchy. You need to actually read about what you don't understand.

This guy says it was all due to the power of Libetarianism and the love of freedom.

You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. That is not what was said at all. Please re-read it. But to save you the trouble, I will rephrase it in terms you may be able to understand.

If all that matters to market anarchists is money (which is what several critics have tried to imply), then situations in which libertarians/AnCaps/market anarchists or whatever, help others without expectation of financial reward, would not exist. Got it now?

So, yes, AnCap really is about the money; market anarchists (like Bernie Madoff and Enron) would have it no other way.

It is tempting to think you are just stupid or ignorant to call Madoff and Enron examples of market anarchism. So I figure you are just being a mean-spirited troll. However, in the off chance that you really are that stupid or ignorant, I suggest you cure your ignorance by actually reading some good books about market anarchy. (Sorry, there isn't any cure I know of to address stupidity, if that is your affliction.)


I see that I have caused you to disregard all of my statements and ideas because of your misperceptions of Trekkies.
I think you should look past the popular media portrayal of us, and, you know, maybe meet one or two adult fans of Star Trek.

Shauns friends who rushed to her aid did not do so because of a political ideology;  they did so because they were her friends.  I guess you missed the part where I said that.

I would rather have friends and friends of friends come to my aid than I would market anarchists.

Because... friends are more often than not dependable, and anarchists are, by definition, not.
Who knows what an anarchist, market or not, will do?

Friends will rush to your aid.  And they wont ask you for money or anything else except your friendship.  Your friends may even help you if you dont help them back. 
Because that what friends do.

Or are you saying that everyone on Facebook who decided to help Shaun was/is a market anarchist.
I'm on Facebook and if I'd heard of this I would have wanted to help too.

Because I'm a nice guy, not because I share an ideology with the people involved.

Sandy, have you ever heard the parable of the Good Samaritan?  Was he a market anarchist, or an AnCap?  Friends helping friends and strangers helping strangers do so out of a concept called "altruism".  Look it up.  It has nothing to do with Liberal statism.

J Thomas on January 14, 2011, 12:36:50 pm

As most of you know, I have been critical of  some of AnCaps principles and stated beliefs because I cant see how they'd work.

Your limited imagination is not an argument against market anarchy. You need to actually read about what you don't understand.

I've been kind of mystified by some of that, and I think maybe I see a pattern.

AnCap principles are very much incomplete if you're looking for something to tell you entirely how to run your life. They say a lot about what not to do, but leave a whole lot of freedom about what to do.

So could a person be a Christian AnCap? I say yes. Jesus said to give away all your possessions to the poor. An AnCap businessman could give away all the profits he extracts from the business to the poor and live on other people's charity himself, and still be a good steward to his business which does good by producing wealth which people buy and also by providing alms for the poor. There's nothing in AnCap to say he can't handle his own affairs that way. There's nothing in Christianity that says he has to oppress anybody.

Similarly I have seen claims that there's nothing wrong with being an AnCap Muslim.

There's nothing wrong with AnCaps starting a garage band which will never make any money, that consumes a part of what they make other ways. They get to do what they want with their profits. AnCap doesn't tell them what to do apart from not oppressing people.

So, somebody who thinks AnCap thinking is supposed to tell everybody everything, may think that AnCaps will have no charity, no religion, and no garage bands. Because the philosophy doesn't tell them they have to.

AnCap thinking is intentionally incomplete. Anything which is not forbidden is allowed. If people want to do tribal things without oppressing anybody with them, that's fine. You can rescue a member of the tribe from bad guys. You can say that your tribe is better than other tribes. The sky's the limit. Get space travel and the sky might be pretty far out there, too.

People who think, for some variable X,

1. X is good.
2. People will not do X unless they are forced to do X.
3. AnCap will not force people to do X.
4. Therefore, X will not happen in AnCap

are failing particularly at step #2. Will people voluntarily do enough X or too much X under AnCap? Who knows? They'll do the amount they want to, and nobody can measure that until the time comes that it's tried.

spudit on January 14, 2011, 01:10:13 pm
Modern Capitalisim has been tested since Adam Smith's era;. it's as old and mature as steam power.

The American style republic is just as old, tested, mature and well understood.

Applied Comunisim is as old as the mass produced car and as above holds no surprises.

AnCap is not even where Communisim was when Lenin took over Russia, which was mostly theory. We know, now, it won't work very well. But in all fairness no one knew for sure in 1917. It had to be tried, the experiment run, before it was a certainty. I am not endorsing the Bolshivecks, but at least they tried their way and now we know.

AnCap is where Communisim was in Marx's day,  the social experiment yet to be run.

Go Team AnCap!  
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 01:11:47 pm by spudit »
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wdg3rd on January 14, 2011, 03:34:07 pm
People who think, for some variable X,

1. X is good.
2. People will not do X unless they are forced to do X.
3. AnCap will not force people to do X.
4. Therefore, X will not happen in AnCap


If (2) is the case, my suspicion is that (1) is demonstrably false except perhaps in the imaginations of the statists who want to force other people to do it.  Will people do X if they are paid to do it?
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

SandySandfort on January 14, 2011, 05:10:16 pm
I see that I have caused you to disregard all of my statements and ideas because of your misperceptions of Trekkies.
I think you should look past the popular media portrayal of us, and, you know, maybe meet one or two adult fans of Star Trek.

Funny, I didn't say anything about what my perceptions of Treckkies are. Gee, I wonder what you assumed they were.  ::)

Actually, I have a better impression of Treckies than is found in the popular media, because, you know, I know one or two adult (sic) fans of Star Trek. Fortunately, most of the Trekkies I knew in the past, have moved up to science fiction (not to mention reality).

Shauns friends who rushed to her aid did not do so because of a political ideology;  they did so because they were her friends.  I guess you missed the part where I said that.

Not at all, it was just erroneous and irrelevant. They are all libertarians (as is Shaun) and that is why they were friends to begin with. And of course, my point was that even though they are libertarians/AnCaps/etc., they did not behave in the economic manner you say that such types behave. In other words, your assumptions about people with such ideologies is still wrong on its face.

I would rather have friends and friends of friends come to my aid than I would market anarchists.

Have you ever taken any courses in logic, rhetoric, logical thinking or the like? This last statement is a false dichotomy. Do you even know what that means? Friends and market anarchists are not mutually exclusive terms. However, if it will make you feel better about your illogical statements, I promise, as a market anarchist, that I will not come to your aid. So you get your wish.  :P

Because... friends are more often than not dependable, and anarchists are, by definition, not.

Please give us a citation to that definition. My guess it is from the ContraryGuy Dictionary and nowhere else. I prefer the literal meaning of "anarchy," which is "no rulers," not "not dependable" or "having no friends." Man, you are pathetic.

Who knows what an anarchist, market or not, will do?

Well, obviously not you.  ;D

Friends will rush to your aid.  And they wont ask you for money or anything else except your friendship.  Your friends may even help you if you dont help them back.  Because that what friends do.

Yeah, including market anarchist friends, such as Shaun's friends. Aren't you paying attention? Shaun's friend, who are libertarians, AnCaps, and market anarchists rushed to her aid without asking her for money or anything else except friendship. Please tell us your sad little theory about why Shaun's story doesn't completely negate your opinions. Inquiring minds want to know, CG.

Or are you saying that everyone on Facebook who decided to help Shaun was/is a market anarchist.

No, of course not. What I am saying is that the core group that got the ball rolling--Jim Davidson, et alia--are all raving libertarians, anarcho-capitalists and even (shudder) Agorists! And you are the one claiming that AnCaps, etc. don't do the things that these folks have done for Shaun. Res ipsa loquitur, you are wrong based on the facts, your quaint fantasies to the contrary not withstanding.

I'm on Facebook and if I'd heard of this I would have wanted to help too.
Because I'm a nice guy, not because I share an ideology with the people involved.

And did you help Shaun, Mr. Nice Guy? I thought not. But hey, it's not too late. There is a legal fund that market anarchists have started contributing to. If you want, I will get you information about where you can make a donation, because you are a nice guy and all that...

Sandy, have you ever heard the parable of the Good Samaritan?  Was he a market anarchist, or an AnCap?

Psst! The Parable of the Good Samaritan is... a parable (a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.) Kind of like Aesop and Uncle Remus.  :)

Anyway, if true, the Good Samaritan might have been an anarchist. You know, there was that whole Third Samaritan Revolt unpleasantness. Anyway, I don't know and neither do you. So what's your point?

Friends helping friends and strangers helping strangers do so out of a concept called "altruism".  Look it up.  It has nothing to do with Liberal statism.

Well, I'm not omniscient, as you pretend to be. I am not so arrogant as to claim I know what motivates people to do good deeds. All that I can say for sure is that people do good deeds and some of those people are market anarchist, so put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr. Nice Guy.

P.S. Please report back when you have made a contribution to Shaun's legal war chest. You talk big, but I think you are altruism deficient when push comes to shove. Please prove me wrong.  :D

P.P.S. As fun as poking the caged monkey can be, I am feeling... compassion. I will stop making you look like a loser for now. Of course, if you say anything that is really, really stupid, I will all over you like stink on shit. Have a nice day.