spudit on January 07, 2011, 11:25:24 am
Ethlically, Ed did some good by doing some wrong. It's the stealltng bread for starvng chlld quandry. Now what wins, the letter or the iintent of the law/custom? Provided Carlos is mature enough to judge that is.
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

SandySandfort on January 07, 2011, 01:01:06 pm
That he's a free man who's gun was taken away? It's not between Carlos and the 'canaries', it's between Ed and Carlos.

Self-defense includes defense of another. The evidence strongly suggested Carlos was threatening to shoot unarmed men. By temporarily disarming Carlos, Ed removed the threat to the three men.

Admittedly, he behaved like an ass. And likely if an arbitration was called and held he'd lose. But it might not stop Carlos from calling one.

No, and, as I have written on this Forum, one can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy… but one is most unlikely to prevail. Ed would undoubtedly win on his counter claim for bringing a frivolous suit.

spudit on January 07, 2011, 02:59:52 pm
Thanks for the weekend cliff hanger in this why done it. .

About the Kid's holster, if it had a retention strap he must have unsnapped it.

If he did, it could then be one more definete step in the escalation proces.  In westerns anyway, working  cowboys wanted to keep ther guns from falling out, the town gun slingers had less secure speed holsters.  So which one is Carlos, working stiff or wanna be gun slinger? Or both.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 03:27:59 pm by spudit »
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

spudit on January 07, 2011, 03:24:08 pm
Is Rhonda protecting Ed by subduing Carlos?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 03:32:10 pm by spudit »
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

Apollo-Soyuz on January 07, 2011, 03:57:11 pm
Self-defense includes defense of another. The evidence strongly suggested Carlos was threatening to shoot unarmed men. By temporarily disarming Carlos, Ed removed the threat to the three men.

I know it's your strip, but I'd disagree.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Carlos is an @$$hole.

That being said, Carlos said: "I think you are threatening me. Maybe I will have to put you all down."

Which I will translate: "I fear for my life, if you come any closer, I will defend myself with my sidearm."

I would argue Carlos was not saying: "Hello. My Name Is Inigo Montoya. You Killed My Father. Prepare to Die."

I'm quite sure that three grown men could have overpowered Carlos. Warning unarmed people to not come any closer seems to be an acceptable action.  Do the canaries have to close enough to disarm Carlos before he can warn them off? Can he only shoot people armed like he was in self-defense?


mellyrn on January 07, 2011, 05:34:20 pm
Quote
I would argue Carlos was not saying: "Hello. My Name Is Inigo Montoya. You Killed My Father. Prepare to Die."

I argue that that's exactly what he was saying.  If he really felt endangered, he would not have spoken with such a come-and-get-me sneer -- check his snide little grin as he says, "Oh, three heroes."  And "Maybe I will have to put you all down" isn't exactly "Hold it right there, don't come any closer!"

Do you honestly think Ed would have intervened as he did if he thought Carlos was truly alarmed -- or if he thought Carlos really was at risk?

Carlos is giving them a come-on.  And I think if this were not explicitly an anarchic comic, no one would have missed that. 

SandySandfort on January 07, 2011, 05:58:23 pm
I don't think anyone disagrees that Carlos is an @$$hole.

That being said, Carlos said: "I think you are threatening me. Maybe I will have to put you all down."

Which I will translate: "I fear for my life, if you come any closer, I will defend myself with my sidearm."

Reasonable minds may differ. Of course, it is difficult in this medium to nuance speech, but I'm sure you will agree that different verbal emphasis would yield a different interpretation. For those old enough, I based the character on "Cimarron" in John Wayne's "The Cowboys," my all-time favorite John Wayne movie and probably in my top 10 of all films. Check it out.

I'm quite sure that three grown men could have overpowered Carlos.

Even if possible, to what end? So they could beat him up? However, the likelihood of doing that before he shot one of them or an innocent bystander approximates zero. My guess is you have never taken a combat firearms course. Taking a gun away from a person determined to shoot you is extremely difficult.

Can he only shoot people armed like he was in self-defense?

Nope, but without something more, he would be hard pressed to show he was acting in self-defense.

spudit on January 07, 2011, 07:00:34 pm
Carlos insults Rhonda
Ed stops her slap
She complains, he explains, the 3 get up
She says Ed won't work
Carlos threatens others
Ed takes his gun
Carlos threatens Ed
Mr macho Carlos gets beat up by a girl 
Carlos has it coming from someone but why her?

I think she likes/respects Ed but was she keeping him from having to use deadly force? If so, why?
Vote Early and Vote Often
for EFT
have you voted today?

J Thomas on January 07, 2011, 07:02:04 pm
I'm quite sure that three grown men could have overpowered Carlos.

Even if possible, to what end? So they could beat him up?

If they could overpower him, then they could twist his head off if they chose to. (Maybe it wouldn't come off, but that wouldn't matter much to him at that point.) So they could perhaps be considered a credible threat. He didn't have to know exactly what their motives were, if he could legitimately consider himself threatened.

Quote
However, the likelihood of doing that before he shot one of them or an innocent bystander approximates zero. My guess is you have never taken a combat firearms course. Taking a gun away from a person determined to shoot you is extremely difficult.

On the other hand taking a gun away from somebody who is focused on intimidating you is often much easier though still risky. Was Carlos determined to shoot or was he in intimidation mode? If it's you facing that, and you aren't sure then you're betting your life that you're right. On the other hand, if he's determined to shoot you regardless you might not have much to lose....

Bet your life that the guy with the gun is an idiot? I feel lucky I've never been in that situation outside of dreams. In theory I'd feel more confident trying it if he was actually pointing a gun at me. Because if he's already pointed it at me for 3 seconds and he hasn't shot me yet, then probably he hasn't taken a combat firearms course and the odds are bigger that he doesn't know what he's doing.

SandySandfort on January 07, 2011, 08:55:44 pm
You are way over-thinking this. Try focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. Ed's actions are the only issue of any importance in this scene.

I'm quite sure that three grown men could have overpowered Carlos.

Even if possible, to what end? So they could beat him up?

If they could overpower him, then they could twist his head off if they chose to. (Maybe it wouldn't come off, but that wouldn't matter much to him at that point.) So they could perhaps be considered a credible threat. He didn't have to know exactly what their motives were, if he could legitimately consider himself threatened.

Quote
However, the likelihood of doing that before he shot one of them or an innocent bystander approximates zero. My guess is you have never taken a combat firearms course. Taking a gun away from a person determined to shoot you is extremely difficult.

On the other hand taking a gun away from somebody who is focused on intimidating you is often much easier though still risky. Was Carlos determined to shoot or was he in intimidation mode? If it's you facing that, and you aren't sure then you're betting your life that you're right. On the other hand, if he's determined to shoot you regardless you might not have much to lose....

Bet your life that the guy with the gun is an idiot? I feel lucky I've never been in that situation outside of dreams. In theory I'd feel more confident trying it if he was actually pointing a gun at me. Because if he's already pointed it at me for 3 seconds and he hasn't shot me yet, then probably he hasn't taken a combat firearms course and the odds are bigger that he doesn't know what he's doing.


GeoModder on January 08, 2011, 03:00:13 am
Self-defense includes defense of another. The evidence strongly suggested Carlos was threatening to shoot unarmed men. By temporarily disarming Carlos, Ed removed the threat to the three men.

No, and, as I have written on this Forum, one can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy… but one is most unlikely to prevail. Ed would undoubtedly win on his counter claim for bringing a frivolous suit.

Quandary solved as far as I'm concerned. :)

J Thomas on January 08, 2011, 06:49:39 am
You are way over-thinking this. Try focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. Ed's actions are the only issue of any importance in this scene.

OK, I'll try again. Apollo-Soyuz pointed out that he could legitimately feel threatened, because three big competent men could kill him even though he has a gun, particularly if they got close enough first. You ask what reasonable intention they could have, which does not affect that point -- if it's true they're about to do that then Carlos might never find out what was going on in their minds to make them want to. If they have some stupid plan that will only get them in trouble -- like his -- it isn't his responsibility to figure it out ahead of time.

But he doesn't act like he's afraid of that. He acts like they have played into his hands and he can make a big show before he kills them. In my opinion.

Ed notices Carlos's intentions and stops it. And the big point I get from this is that lots of people imagine that any AnCap society will be like they think the Old Wild West was, where they get to kill anybody they think  has threatened them. Probably lots of Belter newbies will come in thinking that. (There could be AnCap societies like that, if it turns out that societies like that can persist.)

And since there is no official indoctrination unit that collects newbies and trains them in how to be Belters and doesn't let them out until they know the rules, it's up to whoever is on hand to teach them better. If nobody stops newbies from behaving that way, then with sufficient newbies the Belt will indeed become that kind of society. Ed is taking his turn.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 06:51:19 am by J Thomas »

SandySandfort on January 08, 2011, 07:21:07 am
You are way over-thinking this. Try focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. Ed's actions are the only issue of any importance in this scene.

OK, I'll try again. Apollo-Soyuz pointed out that he could legitimately feel threatened...

As I have already said, reasonable minds may differ and I do not agree with that analysis. At any rate, you are building castles in the air again with the rest of your post, below.

You are still not focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. The intent and threat the three guys posed is essentially irrelevant. What Carlos thought and what threat he posed is also largely irrelevant.

For whatever reason, a serious situation was getting worse. With that in mind, analyze Ed's actions, infer his motives and examine the results. If you do that correctly, the scales shall fall from your eyes.

Anybody else care to take a whack at it?

... because three big competent men could kill him even though he has a gun, particularly if they got close enough first. You ask what reasonable intention they could have, which does not affect that point -- if it's true they're about to do that then Carlos might never find out what was going on in their minds to make them want to. If they have some stupid plan that will only get them in trouble -- like his -- it isn't his responsibility to figure it out ahead of time.

But he doesn't act like he's afraid of that. He acts like they have played into his hands and he can make a big show before he kills them. In my opinion.

Ed notices Carlos's intentions and stops it. And the big point I get from this is that lots of people imagine that any AnCap society will be like they think the Old Wild West was, where they get to kill anybody they think  has threatened them. Probably lots of Belter newbies will come in thinking that. (There could be AnCap societies like that, if it turns out that societies like that can persist.)

And since there is no official indoctrination unit that collects newbies and trains them in how to be Belters and doesn't let them out until they know the rules, it's up to whoever is on hand to teach them better. If nobody stops newbies from behaving that way, then with sufficient newbies the Belt will indeed become that kind of society. Ed is taking his turn.


J Thomas on January 08, 2011, 07:28:51 am
You are way over-thinking this. Try focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. Ed's actions are the only issue of any importance in this scene.

OK, I'll try again. Apollo-Soyuz pointed out that he could legitimately feel threatened...

You are still not focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome.

OK, I'll try again.

Ed notices Carlos's intentions and stops it. And the big point I get from this is that lots of people imagine that any AnCap society will be like they think the Old Wild West was, where they get to kill anybody they think  has threatened them. Probably lots of Belter newbies will come in thinking that. (There could be AnCap societies like that, if it turns out that societies like that can persist.)

And since there is no official indoctrination unit that collects newbies and trains them in how to be Belters and doesn't let them out until they know the rules, it's up to whoever is on hand to teach them better. If nobody stops newbies from behaving that way, then with sufficient newbies the Belt will indeed become that kind of society. Ed is taking his turn.

terry_freeman on January 08, 2011, 07:42:53 am
You are way over-thinking this. Try focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome. Ed's actions are the only issue of any importance in this scene.

OK, I'll try again. Apollo-Soyuz pointed out that he could legitimately feel threatened...

You are still not focusing on what Ed did, why he did it and the outcome.

OK, I'll try again.

Ed notices Carlos's intentions and stops it. And the big point I get from this is that lots of people imagine that any AnCap society will be like they think the Old Wild West was, where they get to kill anybody they think  has threatened them. Probably lots of Belter newbies will come in thinking that. (There could be AnCap societies like that, if it turns out that societies like that can persist.)

And since there is no official indoctrination unit that collects newbies and trains them in how to be Belters and doesn't let them out until they know the rules, it's up to whoever is on hand to teach them better. If nobody stops newbies from behaving that way, then with sufficient newbies the Belt will indeed become that kind of society. Ed is taking his turn.


That seems to make sense. Ed defused what was becoming a dangerous situation, with a minimum of force. He lifted the gun, he didn't shoot Carlos. He stopped Rhonda's arm, he didn't backhand her into the wall.

Odds are that this won't rise to the level of arbitration; it's normally allowable friction. Could Carlos and Rhonda "make a federal case" by insisting on a 100% literal reading of the non-agression principle? Yes, but they'd lose in the court of social opinion. Unless they have an OCD-ish need for legal certainty, they'll let it slide.