Holt on January 03, 2011, 10:30:59 am
http://news.searchina.ne.jp/disp.cgi?y=2011&d=0103&f=national_0103_093.shtml

To summarise it for those who can't use Google translate.
Chinese pet shop owners stock diseased animals and instead of treating them pump them full of stimulants then sell them. The animals then die or become ill not long after sale.

Unsurprisingly they do rather well from it.

So. In your envisioned utopia what stops them succeeding? They obviously do well enough as is despite living in China. So how will your system without any form of regulation stop them?

mellyrn on January 03, 2011, 10:47:04 am
Firstly, it's not a utopia, it's only "better than what's been tried before".

Secondly, why stop them?  If you don't like their product, don't buy it.  What's it to you if I keep buying their animals only to have them die on me?

macsnafu on January 03, 2011, 10:48:26 am
http://news.searchina.ne.jp/disp.cgi?y=2011&d=0103&f=national_0103_093.shtml

To summarise it for those who can't use Google translate.
Chinese pet shop owners stock diseased animals and instead of treating them pump them full of stimulants then sell them. The animals then die or become ill not long after sale.

Unsurprisingly they do rather well from it.

Why do you say unsurprisingly?  Are people not aware of what's happening?  Is there a news blackout?   If I bought a pet from a pet store and it died soon after buying it, I'd want to know why, and, finding out, would not buy from that pet store any more.  Furthermore, I'd let all my friends, neighbors and relatives know about the pet store, too.  And I imagine that if the SPCA and other pet groups got wind of it, they would publicize the stores doing it and discourage business with the stores.  And I'm just talking about today's society, not even some "envisioned utopia".

So really, what's happening in China needs more information, and deserves a closer scrutiny to fully understand why "they do rather well from it", since they shouldn't, as a normal conseqence, be able to do well for any length of time.  Only then can a good answer be given.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

Holt on January 03, 2011, 10:56:19 am
Why do you say unsurprisingly?  Are people not aware of what's happening?  Is there a news blackout?   If I bought a pet from a pet store and it died soon after buying it, I'd want to know why, and, finding out, would not buy from that pet store any more.  Furthermore, I'd let all my friends, neighbors and relatives know about the pet store, too.  And I imagine that if the SPCA and other pet groups got wind of it, they would publicize the stores doing it and discourage business with the stores.  And I'm just talking about today's society, not even some "envisioned utopia".

So really, what's happening in China needs more information, and deserves a closer scrutiny to fully understand why "they do rather well from it", since they shouldn't, as a normal conseqence, be able to do well for any length of time.  Only then can a good answer be given.


You assume malice on the part of the state to protect pet shop owners?
Isn't it obvious what's happening? There are lots of people who want animals and so these people sell them animals cheap. The fact that the animals are falling apart is irrelevant.


macsnafu on January 03, 2011, 11:10:44 am


You assume malice on the part of the state to protect pet shop owners?

No, I merely assume I don't know enough to give more than a generalized answer.  Deliberate state protection of shop owners is only one possible answer.  More likely is that the state has taken actions that unintentionally protect shop owners, instead of being deliberate. Coercive actions often have unintended consequences.
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

Holt on January 03, 2011, 11:22:35 am
No, I merely assume I don't know enough to give more than a generalized answer.  Deliberate state protection of shop owners is only one possible answer.  More likely is that the state has taken actions that unintentionally protect shop owners, instead of being deliberate. Coercive actions often have unintended consequences.

It's more the state doesn't care and doesn't get involved.
No animal protection laws.

mellyrn on January 03, 2011, 11:52:59 am
If you want to rescue animals, do so.  Why do you think society should be required to?

macsnafu on January 03, 2011, 12:01:34 pm
No, I merely assume I don't know enough to give more than a generalized answer.  Deliberate state protection of shop owners is only one possible answer.  More likely is that the state has taken actions that unintentionally protect shop owners, instead of being deliberate. Coercive actions often have unintended consequences.

It's more the state doesn't care and doesn't get involved.
No animal protection laws.

I'm so glad to hear that you have detailed, knowledgeable information on this--care to share those details?  In general, you seem to be saying that people are knowingly and willingly buying animals that are diseased from pet shop owners.   If this is the case, I'm not sure why this should be stopped, unless the diseased animals are a health threat to third parties like neighbors or such.

If they were unknowingly buying diseased animals from pet shops, then why would they not figure this out and take the actions I proposed in my first post?  Are we to suppose that Chinese people are stupid, or is something else complicating the story that keeps them from learning what is really happening??
I love mankind.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand!  - Linus Van Pelt.

quadibloc on January 03, 2011, 01:04:33 pm
If you want to rescue animals, do so.  Why do you think society should be required to?
It would seem that the situation would be corrected in an open society, including an AnCap one, since the purchasers are being defrauded, and information would get around quickly.

In China, efforts to prevent news about abuses by corrupt officials from travelling widely has, no doubt, produced an umbrella under which crooked pet shop owners take shelter - as someone noted, but not explicitly.

However, as far as rescuing animals, except by buying them, without society doing something, that would be impossible. After all, the animals are property, not persons, and so for a private individual to "rescue" them would be an act of theft.

Holt on January 03, 2011, 02:06:03 pm
All I'm pointing out is that the Chinese market is not heavily regulated. Few if any standards laws or minimum wage laws or workers rights.
You want to see an AnCap workers life? Look in China.

jamesd on January 03, 2011, 02:40:50 pm
http://news.searchina.ne.jp/disp.cgi?y=2011&d=0103&f=national_0103_093.shtml

To summarise it for those who can't use Google translate.
Chinese pet shop owners stock diseased animals and instead of treating them pump them full of stimulants then sell them. The animals then die or become ill not long after sale.

Unsurprisingly they do rather well from it.

What stops them from doing it the US today?  Do you think police bother with such stuff when they will not even show up when you were burgled and you know who burgled you?  Do you think police will stop them when the SEC ignored Bernie Maddoff.  Do you think police will stop them when police ignored the Green River Killer?

In practice, what usually stops people from doing such things is reputation.

Holt on January 03, 2011, 02:55:20 pm
what stops them from doing it the US today?  Do you think police bother with such stuff when they will not even show up when you were burgled and you know who burgled you?  Do you think police will stop them when the SEC ignored Bernie Maddoff.  Do you think police will stop them when police ignored the Green River Killer?

In practice, what usually stops people from doing such things is reputation.


In the USA? Hmm perhaps not but the USA is generally a bad place to live anyways due to the crap in the food.
In Europe? Britain especially. You'd have the police on you inside a week and the animals would be carted off by the RSPCA to be rehomed, treated or put down as their individual cases dictated.

You know maybe this is why that whole libertarianism thing has never caught on outside the USA?

SandySandfort on January 03, 2011, 04:24:15 pm
All I'm pointing out is that the Chinese market is not heavily regulated. Few if any standards laws or minimum wage laws or workers rights.
You want to see an AnCap workers life? Look in China.

So, let me see if I've got this, Sv DHolt. Repressive, totalitarian, statist China (oh, excuse me, the Workers' Paradise), is the role model for market anarchy? Is this January Fools' Day and nobody told me?  ::)

(What is this guy smoking?)

Holt on January 03, 2011, 04:36:23 pm
[So, let me see if I've got this, Sv DHolt. Repressive, totalitarian, statist China (oh, excuse me, the Workers' Paradise), is the role model for market anarchy? Is this January Fools' Day and nobody told me?  ::)

(What is this guy smoking?)

Role model? Hardly.
The reality? Most certainly. Just replace the Chinese government with some giant corp.

J Thomas on January 03, 2011, 04:49:27 pm
[So, let me see if I've got this, Sv DHolt. Repressive, totalitarian, statist China (oh, excuse me, the Workers' Paradise), is the role model for market anarchy? Is this January Fools' Day and nobody told me?  ::)

(What is this guy smoking?)

Role model? Hardly.
The reality? Most certainly. Just replace the Chinese government with some giant corp.

That's one possibility. You could get a single giant corporation that takes over all the roles of government that it finds profitable, and discards the rest.

But it is unlikely to be the only way an AnCap society could turn out.

If you had asked about democracy in 1774, we would have had basicly 1 example, Switzerland. Pretty much the rest of the world had monarchies. And large numbers of the Swiss wanted monarchy and plotted for it. They were not a shining beacon showing the wonderful advantages of democracy.

But by 1974 there were lots of nations with at least democratic trappings, and the number of monarchs was very low. There were lots of dictators too, but they usually didn't succeed in passing their nations down to their sons. In 1776 a whole lot of people agreed that it was *right* for a ruler to die and be replaced by his closest living relative. Within 200 years that idea was dead in most of europe, asia, africa, and the western hemisphere.

Democracy hasn't in general produced utopias, but democracies are often more free than monarchies. And we have gone from one example to many.

It's easily possible that within 200 years from now we will have a large number of AnCap societies that vary in various ways. If we're around then we can discuss which of them we like better, and why. Today is a little soon to argue about which AnCap model is the only one that can exist.

 

anything