jamesd on November 21, 2010, 03:47:47 pm
Yes. I did a very quick google search, Ceres is listed with surface g of .28 to .33 meters/second^2. I'll call ..3. So, say you drop something into a 30 meter hole. The first second it falls .33*1^2/2 meters. About half a foot. By the second second it has fallen 2 feet. By the third second it is at 4.5 feet. If you fall off the cliff and somebody's in reach, they have close to 3 seconds to catch you. If you manage to slosh your coffee upward, you may have several seconds to catch it before it hits anything.

You would have to lean far forward to walk with any speed. To actually run you would need to lean over *very* far.

For any actions that are reasonably quick, the action will be performed as if in zero gravity.   You will fly.   You will not walk.  You will not run.  You might skip or hop if travelling over a large space like a corridor.  In any smaller space you will push off from your starting point, fly to your destination point, then decelerate at your destination point, as if gravity was zero.

If going from one side of the room to another, you will push off from one wall, and then halt by pushing on the target wall.

The speed at which one switches, has to switch, from walking to running depends on the gravity.  At low gravity, the slow pace is a slow motion run, not a walk. 

The walk/run transition depends on the square root of the gravity.  On mars, maximum walking speed is three fifths earth walking speed.  On ceres, one fifth earth walking speed.  No one is going to move that slowly, they will always move as if running in slow motion, or leaping superhero style.

jamesd on November 21, 2010, 09:24:37 pm
[Space implies miligravity or microgravity - space is when you are not standing on a planet.  Mars is a planet.  Ceres is not.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for us. So according to the JamesDictionary, space "implies" (I guess it doesn't actually mean anything)

Space is when you are not standing on a planet:  Thus "in space" means not on a planet.

So, when Ceres was discovered, it was considered to be a planet, anyone there would not have been in space.

Actually, back then, anyone off earth would be considered to be in space, and that usage is still standard usage outside science fiction, but in science fiction "space" usually means "off planet", rather than "off earth" - possibly because science fictional planets are apt to be unimaginatively and implausibly earth like - or perhaps it means "off earthlike planet" by the same reasoning.

I cannot wait for your novel, treatise on philosophy, textbook on semiotics, white paper on art appreciation or whatever fantasy you are harboring. Seņor, all you have are opinions. Is that all you got?

What I have got is that your Ceres looks like an LA mall

jamesd on November 21, 2010, 10:07:22 pm
I cannot wait for your novel, treatise on philosophy, textbook on semiotics, white paper on art appreciation or whatever fantasy you are harboring. Seņor, all you have are opinions. Is that all you got?

Walking speed on earth is a bit over one meter per second.  Most gestures, actions, and events take place at about walking speed.  It follows that if someone were to perform an action that involves moving less than six meters, on Ceres, he would perform this action as if in zero gravity.

If someone were to get up from a chair at normal getting-up-from-the-chair speed, he would then bounce into the air about one and half meters, roughly body height, and would not contact the ground again until he has traveled one or two body lengths from the chair.

Thus Ceres is, to fair approximation, a zero g environment for human actions.  On Ceres, you do not need to take the weight off your legs, so chairs are unnecessary, and the maneuvering necessary to get into and out of a chair will send you and the chair flying, making chairs inconvenient and dangerous.

When floating, the human body tends to relax into a semi fetal pose, with legs bent rather than straight, semi crouched.  I would expect this to be the normal position in Ceres in place of seating.  People would not stand up, but neither would they fall down.




SandySandfort on November 22, 2010, 10:12:32 am
I cannot wait for your novel, treatise on philosophy, textbook on semiotics, white paper on art appreciation or whatever fantasy you are harboring. Seņor, all you have are opinions. Is that all you got?

Walking speed on earth is a bit over one meter per second....

Many thanks for your opinions.

J Thomas on November 22, 2010, 12:17:57 pm
Yes. I did a very quick google search, Ceres is listed with surface g of .28 to .33 meters/second^2. I'll call ..3. So, say you drop something into a 30 meter hole. The first second it falls .33*1^2/2 meters. About half a foot. By the second second it has fallen 2 feet. By the third second it is at 4.5 feet. If you fall off the cliff and somebody's in reach, they have close to 3 seconds to catch you. If you manage to slosh your coffee upward, you may have several seconds to catch it before it hits anything.

You would have to lean far forward to walk with any speed. To actually run you would need to lean over *very* far.

For any actions that are reasonably quick, the action will be performed as if in zero gravity.   You will fly.   You will not walk.  You will not run.  You might skip or hop if travelling over a large space like a corridor.  In any smaller space you will push off from your starting point, fly to your destination point, then decelerate at your destination point, as if gravity was zero.

If going from one side of the room to another, you will push off from one wall, and then halt by pushing on the target wall.

The speed at which one switches, has to switch, from walking to running depends on the gravity.  At low gravity, the slow pace is a slow motion run, not a walk. 

The walk/run transition depends on the square root of the gravity.  On mars, maximum walking speed is three fifths earth walking speed.  On ceres, one fifth earth walking speed.  No one is going to move that slowly, they will always move as if running in slow motion, or leaping superhero style.

You are assuming there are no new forms of movement available, though you have noticed that walking is not practical.

If you can crawl in a way that puts most of the force sideways, which you can, then gravity opposes your up force. If you rise no more than 6 inches then you will be back in position in 2 seconds to make your next push. Lots of pushes instead of just one per long leap, and also you get lots of chances for course correction. Potentially much faster than big long leaps, and certainly more maneuverable.

J Thomas on November 22, 2010, 01:43:26 pm

If someone were to get up from a chair at normal getting-up-from-the-chair speed, he would then bounce into the air about one and half meters, roughly body height, and would not contact the ground again until he has traveled one or two body lengths from the chair.

So you want to move forward but not up. That's doable.

Quote
Thus Ceres is, to fair approximation, a zero g environment for human actions.  On Ceres, you do not need to take the weight off your legs, so chairs are unnecessary, and the maneuvering necessary to get into and out of a chair will send you and the chair flying, making chairs inconvenient and dangerous.

So don't do it that way.

Quote
When floating, the human body tends to relax into a semi fetal pose, with legs bent rather than straight, semi crouched.  I would expect this to be the normal position in Ceres in place of seating.  People would not stand up, but neither would they fall down.

Maybe. I'd expect people to stretch a lot. It's true you could stand in a semifetal pose with your ass sticking out, and it wouldn't be tiring. On Terra the natural thing is for people to sit on the ground with their legs crossed, but some people sit in chairs. I get the impression it started out as a status thing -- there's a nomadic tribe where the king has a chair and nobody else does.

If you had a chair that was bolted to the floor with handholds, you could get out of it by sliding sideways and pulling down, so with practice you wouldn't bounce at all. Would people want that?

I really don't know what people would do, and it would depend partly on what was practical -- which is hard to guess without actual practice -- and partly on what customs developed. It seems unlikely things would look so much like Terra as they do in the comic, but why interrupt the story to make that look strange?

If at some point the story is about Belters who feel like they should break cultural ties with Terra, they might go in for strange stuff because it's different and they could say it's practical.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 02:58:31 pm by J Thomas »

SandySandfort on November 22, 2010, 10:55:22 pm
If at some point the story is about Belters who feel like they should break cultural ties with Terra, they might go in for strange stuff because it's different and they could say it's practical.

Or maybe they don't give a crap one way or the other. Why did the boring normal guy cross the road? Because somebody told him too. Why did the hippie cross the road? Because somebody told him not too. Why do Belters cross the road? Because they want to get to the other side, of course.

J Thomas on November 23, 2010, 08:23:39 am
If at some point the story is about Belters who feel like they should break cultural ties with Terra, they might go in for strange stuff because it's different and they could say it's practical.

Or maybe they don't give a crap one way or the other. Why did the boring normal guy cross the road? Because somebody told him too. Why did the hippie cross the road? Because somebody told him not too. Why do Belters cross the road? Because they want to get to the other side, of course.

There are people doing silly things everywhere. There could be Belters who want to break cultural ties with Terra, who do silly things as a result. They might create a market for innovations that wouldn't get popularised otherwise. Some of those innovations might be very good and useful and would spread widely.

People come up with all kinds of crazy ideas. I would expect Belters to be practical and rein in the craziest ideas before they cost too much. Crazy ideas that don't cause much harm might spread as fast as anywhere else. So for example they could easily get astrologers who have giant arguments with each other about the correct way to do astrology when you aren't on Terra. I would expect some Belters might pay them pocket change for horoscopes, for amusement or to help them make decisions that they are mostly undecided by the evidence. I would not expect many Belters to pay much for that, and it might be that dedicated astrologers would be mostly hobbyists doing it in their spare time if they can't make a living at it. Would all Belters -- millions of them -- agree that astrology is bunk and so none of them do it? Probably not.

Plane on January 01, 2011, 07:54:21 pm
I would expect the mall to have handrails all over the place , brachiating across the ceiling might seem pretty reasonable as a shortcut to a six foot man who weighed ten pounds. Handrails at low leavels would help controll rapid motion ,especially braking. Is moveing rapidly and with poor controll going to be a sort of rudeness? A fellow who simply preferred to spend a lot of time hanging from the rafters upside down or sideways would have little disadvantage to a walker, provided that his strength and reflexes were up to it. In our present society the few who are able to climb up the facade of the building get locked up for it.Perhaps in the Ceries mega mall "meet me in the middle of the ceiling" would not be extraordinary.

I bet that depicting an economy of gesture is very difficult for a cartoonist, Comic caricters are dramaticly posed because this is a part of the comic language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachiation


I havent seen pets yet , we discussed light gravity farm hogs in another thread , but I really wonder how cats and dogs would cope with adaptation to low or no Gs.Pet birds are probly well equipped to fly through the air with less effort.


Pests in space might have a problem. A fleas hop would throw it straight to the ceiling from wence it would fall as slowly as light dust, a roach would find its scuttle innefective ,rats might cope pretty well with low G, but extermination with extreme cold or low pressure or low O2 would be a mere adjustment of the lifesupport settings. Would bedbugs adapt and become known as pressuresuit bugs?


Eeew.



BTW I am kibitzing, not writing your comic for you, I enjoy your comic and I enjoy these comments pages .You are doing a good job with both as they are .

J Thomas on January 01, 2011, 09:09:07 pm
I would expect the mall to have handrails all over the place , brachiating across the ceiling might seem pretty reasonable as a shortcut to a six foot man who weighed ten pounds. Handrails at low leavels would help controll rapid motion ,especially braking. Is moveing rapidly and with poor controll going to be a sort of rudeness? A fellow who simply preferred to spend a lot of time hanging from the rafters upside down or sideways would have little disadvantage to a walker, provided that his strength and reflexes were up to it. In our present society the few who are able to climb up the facade of the building get locked up for it.Perhaps in the Ceries mega mall "meet me in the middle of the ceiling" would not be extraordinary.

Good thought!

I could imagine one-way traffic lanes. The floor could have pedals sticking out of it, that easily fold out of the way if you hit them as you pass them, but which then fold back out. If you push on one with your foot or pull on it with your hand, it resists so you can get a good solid push from it. The lane is one-way because if you try to go the other way the pedals are worse than useless.

 

anything