eli.civilunrest on September 02, 2010, 02:33:05 pm
I just got around to reading the the Publisher's Weekly from July, and I know there is no such thing as bad press, and I know our hosts called the review fair, but I am confused and annoyed at the line above.   I also know that I read those pages as they came out and so don't remember all the nuance, but I can't think for the life of me what this reviewer was talking about. 

wdg3rd on September 02, 2010, 08:46:34 pm
I just got around to reading the the Publisher's Weekly from July, and I know there is no such thing as bad press, and I know our hosts called the review fair, but I am confused and annoyed at the line above.   I also know that I read those pages as they came out and so don't remember all the nuance, but I can't think for the life of me what this reviewer was talking about. 

My suspicion is that they're referring to the "trial" of the war criminals.  Some people have the idea that "justice" can only be dispensed by government employees, expensive lawyers,  and a jury that has undergone the extensive tampering process known as "voir dire".
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

jamesd on September 03, 2010, 09:12:32 pm
My suspicion is that they're referring to the "trial" of the war criminals.  Some people have the idea that "justice" can only be dispensed by government employees, expensive lawyers,  and a jury that has undergone the extensive tampering process known as "voir dire".

We already have a private enterprise justice system for small claims - one of the main benefits of using Visa credit, or Visa branded debit cards, is Visa arbitration.  Visa's system is swift, informal, casual, fair, and courteous, and delivers far better justice than the government small claims court.  Mastercard provides something similar, but arguably Visa's reputation as an arbitrator is better than Mastercard's.  Paypal/Ebay also purports to provide something similar, but their reputation as an arbitrator is absolutely vile, evil, and infamous - almost as bad as that of the small claims court.

mellyrn on September 20, 2010, 02:00:13 pm
There is an all too common conceit that a "trial" is a kind of ritual, a mysterious but necessary magical process that somehow makes the punishment legitimate.  "Butcher" Harris is one sufferer of this conceit; he demands that "King Reginald" surrender himself for "arrest, trial, and punishment" (emphasis added) -- clearly thinking that the outcome of the trial is already known . . . umm, which kind of negates much of the point of a trial, at least to anyone who understands just what a trial is.

Harris not only freely confessed, he expressed pride as well as eagerness to repeat himself.  The Cerereans have nothing further to determine, like extenuating circumstances.  Readers who are shocked that there is no trial for Harris are also wanting the magic of ritual to make the execution OK, and they too miss the point of a "trial".

The guy who actually fired, though -- I think a much more fitting punishment for him would be to let him live.  Executing him does send the message to everyone else that yes, you are accountable for your own actions even under the awesome stress of social approbation or disapprobation, which is I guess useful in making it clear that this society really means it.  Still, killing him was kinder than letting him live knowing he'd killed just because some Big Guy told him to.   I mean, can you get lower than that?

SandySandfort on September 20, 2010, 04:57:12 pm
The guy who actually fired, though -- I think a much more fitting punishment for him would be to let him live.  Executing him does send the message to everyone else that yes, you are accountable for your own actions even under the awesome stress of social approbation or disapprobation, which is I guess useful in making it clear that this society really means it.  Still, killing him was kinder than letting him live knowing he'd killed just because some Big Guy told him to.   I mean, can you get lower than that?

I knew his execution would be controversial. And that is because different people would have done things differently. I might have let him live, but it wasn't up to you or to me or to some social consensus. I left it up to Emily. I examined the character I had created and I let her do what I think a real Emily would have done. She and her family had a very strict moral code about personal responsibility. She could really do no less, other than to kill him quickly and mercifully with a shot to the head. Something she didn't do for Harris. I also think Emily would not have killed the young man had he shown any true understanding of, and real remorse for, his crime. To the end, though, he took no blame and continued to put the responsibility on Harris.


mellyrn on September 20, 2010, 06:02:22 pm
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I examined the character I had created and I let her do what I think a real Emily would have done.

Ah, and now I know better what kind of author I am dealing with!  Thank you; you have indeed given me a great deal to think about.  Among other things, I appreciate the point about the shooter's avoidance of responsibility (does not bode well for his being a contributing member of Cererean society); mostly, though, I have some thinking to do about individual (e.g. Emily) vs. communal justice, and a community that respects individual calls.

Off-topic, for which I apologize but see no other way to inquire -- where is there a "newbies FAQ" sort of place?  I have a Q not covered by the "Help" tab.  Thank you kindly.

SandySandfort on September 20, 2010, 11:38:37 pm
Ah, and now I know better what kind of author I am dealing with!  Thank you; you have indeed given me a great deal to think about.  Among other things, I appreciate the point about the shooter's avoidance of responsibility (does not bode well for his being a contributing member of Cererean society); mostly, though, I have some thinking to do about individual (e.g. Emily) vs. communal justice, and a community that respects individual calls.

I'm not sure that "respect" is the most appropriate word. We know that Merry Petzger did not like what happened. I'm sure there would be others who agree with her. The think is, no one was sufficiently put off to do more than carp about it. Certainly, they could shun her and suggest others do the same. They could even bring an action in arbitration on behalf of the Young's family. It would be conceivable and interesting if Young's brother showed up on Ceres and shot Emily. Would her death be largely ignored, just as Young's was? There are many possibilities.

Off-topic, for which I apologize but see no other way to inquire -- where is there a "newbies FAQ" sort of place?  I have a Q not covered by the "Help" tab.  Thank you kindly.

Newbie FAQ for EFT, Big Head Press or what? There is a part of me that would like to put together an EFT concordance, but not a very motivated part. There is a EFT Bible. It is a work in progress and only for internal use. Just ask your questions here and we/I will try to address them in the Forum.

mellyrn on September 21, 2010, 11:06:04 am
I think by "respect" I meant "respect her right to make the call" rather than respecting what call she did make.  Hmm.  Quakers might suggest a "clearness committee", a small group of people Emily trusted & respected with whom she would meet and discuss her possibilities, their implications, foreseeable consequences, &c.  Such a committee does not dictate what the subject ultimately chooses, nor even steer it one way or another; it's an exploration.

As to my question, it was about the site's functioning, but it's gone away.  I couldn't find any "new topic" tab, though I wanted to comment on p. 302 and music.  Now I have one.  I could wonder why, though.  Maybe it will vanish again. 

wdg3rd on September 22, 2010, 12:58:23 am
Off-topic, for which I apologize but see no other way to inquire -- where is there a "newbies FAQ" sort of place?  I have a Q not covered by the "Help" tab.  Thank you kindly.

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Newbie FAQ for EFT, Big Head Press or what? There is a part of me that would like to put together an EFT concordance, but not a very motivated part. There is a EFT Bible. It is a work in progress and only for internal use. Just ask your questions here and we/I will try to address them in the Forum.

Sandy, I think Mel is looking for a FAQ on Libertarianism.  Too young to do it the hard way like those of us who read Rand (and Marx, but corrected the errors) and Heinlein, then got in with the younger libertarian writers, like the Neils and Claire and (oh yeah) you.

Mel has an easy path, starting with reading most of the finished comics at BigHeadPress.com.   Then all of the continuing comics.  But I figure The Probability Broach, The Architect and Roswell, Texas are a start.  Then Mel can ask questions that have actually been thought out.  And then we can point out real dead-tree books, like Heinlein's classics or even Rand's.

Mel is probably too young for Odysseus the Rebel.  I couldn't handle anything like that until I was at least 13, after a year as an atheist.  Of course, that's the year I read Atlas Shrugged.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 01:01:29 am by wdg3rd »
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

mellyrn on September 22, 2010, 09:04:19 am
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As to my question, it was about the site's functioning
(emphasis added)

Thank you kindly, wdg3rd, but I don't think I need a libertarian faq for that.


 

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