Brugle on July 29, 2009, 03:45:34 pm
Flash-back to a short story I read over 40 years ago, but I forgot its name and author.  Deep in the amazon jungle, a crazy scientist said he had a process for changing chlorophyll into hemoglobin, making meat out of plant food.  But that's not exactly the way it worked. ;)

I'm enjoying EFT immensely, and will comment when I have something relevant to say.

SandySandfort on July 29, 2009, 05:31:38 pm
Flash-back to a short story I read over 40 years ago, but I forgot its name and author.  Deep in the amazon jungle, a crazy scientist said he had a process for changing chlorophyll into hemoglobin, making meat out of plant food.  But that's not exactly the way it worked. ;)
I don't remember the story, but it is a fact that legumes do produce a form of hemoglobin! See third to last paragraph or search "hemoglobin":

   http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/engineering.html

I'm enjoying EFT immensely, and will comment when I have something relevant to say.

We think that the fact that you enjoy EFT is highly relevant.   ;)

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deadasdisco on July 30, 2009, 04:51:49 pm
Hey, if WE can grow an ear on a mouse, then the guy that cracked quantum entanglement can make meat in a gourd....

Which brings me to a couple of questions, one plot-related, one frivolous...

1. So... is this steak that vegans can eat?  And if so, will it make them easier to deal with (aaaaaand ducking... now) [I kid 'cause I love, guys...  ;) ]

2. Is this guy for real about 'giving them away'?  Seriously?  Or is he up to something?  A plot to move in on Earth when the Dub has fallen, maybe?  I mean, if he's for real, then more power to him, and by the unwritten rules of EFT, he HAS been given 'Good Guy' level exposition.  Bad guys do NOT get this kind of info-dump.  Still, I'm personally always suspicious of anything that seems TOO good to be true.  After all, if there's something me and and the hard-charging anarchist/libertarian types on this board agree on, its TANSTAAFL... there's always a price... 

BTW, guys, good job, seeing if the Big Kahuna's really on the up-and-up is just as suspensful to me as whether or not the Iceman gets him... maybe more so, sinse there's no nanotech shield on human intentions...

SandySandfort on July 30, 2009, 06:09:58 pm
1. So... is this steak that vegans can eat?  And if so, will it make them easier to deal with (aaaaaand ducking... now) [I kid 'cause I love, guys...  ;) ]

Well, ethical vegans should have no problem since no animals were harmed in the making of this food. But vegans may eschew it for health reasons. In any case, this will make most vegans not one whit easier to put up with. Being holier than thou is part of their personality

2. Is this guy for real about 'giving them away'?  Seriously?  Or is he up to something?  A plot to move in on Earth when the Dub has fallen, maybe?  I mean, if he's for real, then more power to him, and by the unwritten rules of EFT, he HAS been given 'Good Guy' level exposition.  Bad guys do NOT get this kind of info-dump.  Still, I'm personally always suspicious of anything that seems TOO good to be true.  After all, if there's something me and and the hard-charging anarchist/libertarian types on this board agree on, its TANSTAAFL... there's always a price... 

BTW, guys, good job, seeing if the Big Kahuna's really on the up-and-up is just as suspensful to me as whether or not the Iceman gets him... maybe more so, sinse there's no nanotech shield on human intentions...

Let's keep the suspense going a bit long than, shall we?

terry_freeman on July 31, 2009, 12:26:27 am
After a certain level, people do things just for the heck of it. Many a hospital or university has been founded by people who simply could afford to do so. What would be gained by giving away steak-fruit gourds and instantaneous travel? I'm guessing that the desired end result would be the collapse of the world government.  A person who has acquired the status of "insanely rich" might not worry a great deal about profit per se -- but he might want to seriously damage the one entity with the resources and motivation to threaten his security.

As for steak-fruit being acceptable to vegans, that would depend on how fine a line they draw. There's a fair market for ersatz "chicken" and "beef" which are actually derived from soy beans. Many of the usual arguments - requiring so many acres to obtain so many pounds of beef, or the harm done to animals - would not apply. There remain two vegan arguments, however, which might. Those who believe that meat is unhealthy would believe the same of steak fruit. There would also be those who would object to the "unnatural" union of plant and vegetable genetic materials.  As for me, I love animals ... on a plate, right next to the potatoes and vegetables. If a tasty steak-fruit were developed, I'd happily indulge. i notice that nobody has ever tried to make steak taste like soy beans.






Sean Roach on July 31, 2009, 01:05:38 am
Possibilities...
Basic meat will be scattered in little packets where anyone can find them...but the choice cuts single generation seeds will sell for 9.95.
Hyperspace travel will be released to the general population, so anyone can make the engines...but there is a ready fleet ready to go the day the information is released to the public.  Perhaps even some for sale.

Of course, it could be argued that he simply wants to make a mark on the world, wants to make that mark by making the world a better place to live, and can afford to do so by giving away groundbreaking, and stasis shattering, technologies.

It could also be argued he's operating within the framework of a gift economy.  Give something to others in order to win acclaim.

P.S.  An alternate possibility.  If the governments can't hold the people, and the people leave, that will put a lot more people in the belt, and presumably relying on wireless forms of communication as their primary link with their associates.  Freeing people to run away creates a bigger market for the existing tanglenet.  Freeing people to produce meat on a small acreage, incidentally, especially if that acreage can be hydroponic, would also allow people to "raise meat" on smallish ships.  Again, freeing them from needing to stay at home.  Both the new technologies, but especially the hyperspace one, increase the market share Tanglenet has for communication.

Sorry for any oddities of language.  It's after midnight, and I'm typing stream of thought.

SandySandfort on July 31, 2009, 10:47:02 am
After a certain level, people do things just for the heck of it. Many a hospital or university has been founded by people who simply could afford to do so. What would be gained by giving away steak-fruit gourds and instantaneous travel? I'm guessing that the desired end result would be the collapse of the world government.  A person who has acquired the status of "insanely rich" might not worry a great deal about profit per se -- but he might want to seriously damage the one entity with the resources and motivation to threaten his security.

Bingo! Tobi is way past having to make a profit on this or that project. He can afford to indulge his ability to change the world. Wouldn't we all do the same, if we were rich enough?

...If a tasty steak-fruit were developed, I'd happily indulge. i notice that nobody has ever tried to make steak taste like soy beans.

 :D

SandySandfort on July 31, 2009, 11:05:30 am
Possibilities...
Basic meat will be scattered in little packets where anyone can find them...but the choice cuts single generation seeds will sell for 9.95.
Hyperspace travel will be released to the general population, so anyone can make the engines...but there is a ready fleet ready to go the day the information is released to the public.  Perhaps even some for sale.

Excellent pickup. Sean has, of course, restated the "open source" concept as it applies to this scenario. You give away the basic product then charge for the premium, value-added version. For the record, though, that is not what Tobi is doing. He might have done it earlier, when he wasn't so rich, but that was not the case.

Of course, it could be argued that he simply wants to make a mark on the world, wants to make that mark by making the world a better place to live, and can afford to do so by giving away groundbreaking, and stasis shattering, technologies.

Yup.

It could also be argued he's operating within the framework of a gift economy.  Give something to others in order to win acclaim.

At the end of the day, Tobi may be a humanitarian, but he is still a geek looking for street cred. Change the world? Now that is street cred.
 
P.S.  An alternate possibility.  If the governments can't hold the people, and the people leave, that will put a lot more people in the belt, and presumably relying on wireless forms of communication as their primary link with their associates.  Freeing people to run away creates a bigger market for the existing tanglenet.  Freeing people to produce meat on a small acreage, incidentally, especially if that acreage can be hydroponic, would also allow people to "raise meat" on smallish ships.  Again, freeing them from needing to stay at home.  Both the new technologies, but especially the hyperspace one, increase the market share Tanglenet has for communication.

That too. Excellent overview of the possible motivations for Tobi to give his new technologies away for free.

Azure Priest on August 01, 2009, 10:16:52 am
I'm not entirely certain having plants generating meat products is a good thing. Genetic engineering gave us "killer," Africanized, honey bees as an example. Further there is precedent for plants having animal proteins. In the books, Relic and Reliquary, a tropical plant in the Brazil rain forest had a symbiotic fungus that produced proteins very chemically similar to the hormones produced by the hypothalmus. People who ate that plant would change at the genetic level and become dependent on the chemicals to live. An amazon tribe used this to their advantage, capture a member of an "enemy" tribe, feed him the leaf in tea, then release him back to his people.  Those books are fiction; however, genetic engineering more often than not, is people toying with things they don't fully understand, hoping to do one thing and getting something else instead.

pendothrax on August 01, 2009, 11:25:51 am
I think the United World would not be caring if the majority of their citizens, the welfare rolls, were to leave.  The actual workers, or middle class leaving would destroy thier tax base completely as the setting has been described. And the control of internet "pirates" is well underway.  Between the so called intellectual property treaties, and the recent show trila of the Pirate Bay founders, a way is being found to reign in truly independent voices whenever those in authority feel the urge. I look at the extra legal pressures put on craigslist by the ?South Carolina? state attorney general as the fore runner of the boot in your face that is the "middle ground' in internet content regulation.

SandySandfort on August 01, 2009, 09:08:35 pm
I'm not entirely certain having plants generating meat products is a good thing. Genetic engineering gave us "killer," Africanized, honey bees as an example.

Not so. Africanized hybrid bees created themselves. African queens accidentally escaped captivity in Brazil and mated with local drones all on their own. see:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee

... genetic engineering more often than not, is people toying with things they don't fully understand, hoping to do one thing and getting something else instead.

I don't know of any evidence that would support your supposition. Genetic engineering has definitely been practiced by humans since the invention of agriculture. My guess is that it goes back 100,000 to 200,000 years in the domestication of the wolf into dogs. And in some sense all human progress has involved taking risks and "people toying with things they don't fully understand." That's how they get to fully understand things.

terry_freeman on August 01, 2009, 10:58:29 pm
The more energetic and productive people tend to be first to exploit the advantages of disruptive technologies, and to leave the kleptocrats to their own devices. Folks on welfare rolls might prefer to let other people provide food "for free" - making food easier to produce might merely increase their demands. If food production were made insanely easy, and transportation cheap and ubiquitous, the productive would flee, leaving behind parasites and those who feel duty-bound to support the parasites. It is a paradox that a relatively free and productive economy can support a huge overburden of parasites, at least until their demands outpace the productive capacity.

By the way, I disagree with some of what George Soros is trying to accomplish, but he is an example of a person who has enough wealth to alter the course of politics; it is said that his contributions to Eastern Europe exceed the total "foreign aid" from the US. If he were libertarian, that would be awesome.

Mabuse on August 02, 2009, 02:36:59 am
A little OT but for your edification Sandy; Information Mechanics was published in 1967 not 77.

SandySandfort on August 02, 2009, 08:47:29 am
A little OT but for your edification Sandy; Information Mechanics was published in 1967 not 77.

Are you sure you are talking about the Information Mechanics written by Frederick Kantor? Amazon and others list the publication date as 1977. See:

http://www.amazon.com/Information-Mechanics-Frederick-William-Kantor/dp/0471029688/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3FGEWRKFL6UOT&colid=3H07XO4YJR3AY
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 08:50:36 am by SandySandfort »

wdg3rd on August 02, 2009, 09:30:37 am
Flash-back to a short story I read over 40 years ago, but I forgot its name and author.  Deep in the amazon jungle, a crazy scientist said he had a process for changing chlorophyll into hemoglobin, making meat out of plant food.  But that's not exactly the way it worked. ;)

I'm enjoying EFT immensely, and will comment when I have something relevant to say.

That story I don't recall, but there were the chloro-cattle in F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State (not vegan acceptable, as they were motile) and of course my own preference is carniculture, raising animal muscle tissue in vats, common in the works of H. Beam Piper.  That latter is established technology that has never left the laboratories.

And Sandy, I'm assuming that you've read Gilpin's Space by Reginald Bretnor and The Great Explosion by Eric Frank Russell, which involve public dissemination of low-cost interstellar transportation technologies and some of the after-effects.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot