Setebos on July 13, 2009, 09:01:57 am
So the asteroid is similar to the planet Gallifrey (with the Star of Rassilon at its center).

SandySandfort on July 13, 2009, 09:20:07 am
So the asteroid is similar to the planet Gallifrey (with the Star of Rassilon at its center).

No guys, it is not hollow, that is impossible in the real world, nor is it artificial. Just beyond the event horizon would be neutronium and then degenerate matter and then really hot normal matter then cooler and cooler matter until you get to the surface. (Plasma is in there someplace, but I'm not sure where.)

The mutual capture is the real trick. One way it could happen is if the naked black hole (plus some accumulated matter) encountered a sizable planetoid with a similar, but slightly eccentric orbit. They would both be going about the same speed in the same direction. However, once they had merged, the planetoid would assume the orbit of the black hole (except for a microscopic change in the black hole's orbit caused by the planetoid's mass). Though the planetoid would wobble around the black hole at first, over time, friction and tidal forces would lead both objects to a nearly stable common center of gravity.


Rocketman on July 13, 2009, 03:04:43 pm
Interesting Sandy.  I had originally thought that since the hole was in the center of TLP that it was likely created by an intelligent enitity(s).  You seem to indicate that my eariler thought was incorrect.  One more question, what about solar lighting to maintain the plants and trees there?  Wouldn't there only be a fraction of the light that strikes Earth hitting TLP?  ???

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on July 13, 2009, 06:56:59 pm
I just noticed that I made one mistake with regard to TLP. I referred to the Kirkwood 3:2 Gap. There ain't no such thing. It should have been the Kirkwood 3:1 Gap. For a very revealing look at the profoundness of the Kirkwood Gaps, see the histogram at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwood_gap

The paper cited was written in 1990. The Wikipedia article on Kirkwood Gaps was last updated in April. My guess is that 19 years of further study has yielded more accurate results.

Interesting; I also used Wikipedia, but used the linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_belt#Kirkwood_gaps; the paper I referenced was the one used to footnote the paragraph:

Quote from: Wikipedia
The gaps are not seen in a simple snapshot of the locations of the asteroids at any one time because asteroid orbits are elliptical, and many asteroids still cross through the radii corresponding to the gaps. The actual spatial density of asteroids in these gaps does not differ significantly from the neighboring regions.

I typically check and/or cite the references from Wikipedia (if I can check them), rather than the Wikipedia text itself.

As to the rest of my source, it was based on the notion that over millions of years, a sizeable quantity of small meteorites would get caught up and and collide with TLP.  It could be a rare occurrance, but "back of the envelope" once every 500 years would result in 8,000,000 such hits in 4 billion years (4 billion picked as approximate age of Earth, assuming other solar planets roughly same age).  The time factor is where the "large numbers" and statistics come in.

Given that TLP has little, if any natural atmosphere (since the "airskin" is required), I wouldn't expect much, if any, heat be built up, subsequent to the initial collision, for the orbiting material.   As a result, I expect that much of it would be fairly intact, rather than having substantial fluid properties -- especially nearer the surface.

I was thinking, therefore of something as rough, or a bit rougher, in an absolute sense (not in scale) to Earth's moon.  I wouldn't have described that as "round as a cue ball"; hence my comments.

Sean Roach on July 13, 2009, 07:09:00 pm
I can almost buy your co-orbit capture.  I heard once, however, that no matter how eccentric, two bodies in the same orbit would have the same period.  I can't find such a statement now, either to support or counter what I'd heard.

I suppose, with Jupiter and Saturn in the equation, it doesn't matter.  Even earths eccentricity has changed over time, (I finally found out that the earth is closest to the sun in January, and furthest from it in July...doesn't feel like it; glad I'm not in Australia, on the whole.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles)

I suppose, with regards to the likelihood, it doesn't matter how likely it was for a micro black hole to capture THIS planetoid rather than punching through, it only matters how likely it would be for it to get captured by A planetoid.  It probably punched through a few planetoids first before lining up, though.

Oh, I found this while looking for eccentricity and its effects on orbital period.  http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/applets/satellites.html

And I still think the extreme roundness of earth has as much to do with its extreme size as it does with gravity.  If you say the core is molten from its proximity to a micro black hole, I'll back off, I just think making it more round than a lumpy potato would have more to do with human engineering than gravity rounding it out.

Edit, two typos.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:10:46 pm by Sean Roach »

SandySandfort on July 13, 2009, 07:13:29 pm
Interesting Sandy.  I had originally thought that since the hole was in the center of TLP that it was likely created by an intelligent enitity(s).  You seem to indicate that my eariler thought was incorrect.  One more question, what about solar lighting to maintain the plants and trees there?  Wouldn't there only be a fraction of the light that strikes Earth hitting TLP?  ???

Maybe TLP is an artifact. It could be artificial or natural. We don't know which at this time. TLP is 2.5 AU from the sun, so it receives 16 percent of earth solar flux. However (a) the airskin can be made transparent, opaque or reflective, so reflected light can shine on the plants as well as direct, and (b), energy is cheap. suspended artificial lighting is also a possibility.

quadibloc on July 18, 2009, 04:19:56 am
Since there are no heavy political issues here just yet, I haven't had much to say. But I do notice that the events at the end of comic 216 seemed never to have happened in comic 217.

And, of course, it does seem strange that our characters simply went on with fulfilling their contract without first dumping all relevant information they knew to the ongoing murder investigation. Presumably this has something to do with this being a Wild West-like situation rather than the situation I'm used to on Earth where we all live in the arms of the all-encompassing State, though. (Yes, this is sarcasm, but not intended to be hostile.)

Rocketman on July 18, 2009, 06:50:47 am
Quadibloc:
     Who says that they didn't report it and it just wasn't added to the storyline yet?  My guess is that since murder is so rare on the asteroids that there isn't much of a police force per say.  "King" Reggie was probably notified by them and that was it.

SandySandfort on July 18, 2009, 02:50:57 pm
Quadibloc:
     Who says that they didn't report it and it just wasn't added to the storyline yet? 

It was reported to Bert & Ernie. Murder is rare in the Belt. It was the talk of the town and news reports. News like that travels fast through a small community. Since the murder happened in the commercial area, the private defense agencies hired by the merchants' association, would be gathering evidence and looking for the murderer. Naturally, the brothers would have given statements before they left.

My guess is that since murder is so rare on the asteroids that there isn't much of a police force per say. 

Zero, in any official way. Private defense agencies and self-help are all that are available.

"King" Reggie was probably notified by them and that was it.

No. Reggie has no official capacity on Ceres. There is no particular reason he would have been involved.

Rocketman on July 18, 2009, 03:21:22 pm


It was reported to Bert & Ernie. Murder is rare in the Belt. It was the talk of the town and news reports. News like that travels fast through a small community. Since the murder happened in the commercial area, the private defense agencies hired by the merchants' association, would be gathering evidence and looking for the murderer. Naturally, the brothers would have given statements before they left.

My guess is that since murder is so rare on the asteroids that there isn't much of a police force per say. 

Zero, in any official way. Private defense agencies and self-help are all that are available.

"King" Reggie was probably notified by them and that was it.

No. Reggie has no official capacity on Ceres. There is no particular reason he would have been involved.
Okay Sandy.  I get what your saying.  But since Reggie is one of the more "prominent" citizens on Ceres I was thinking that he would likely be notified since his name and reputation would carry some weight.  If Joe Average told the authorities he may or may not be believed.   True, Reggie has no official capacity but then again neither does anyone else.

SandySandfort on July 18, 2009, 04:10:00 pm
Okay Sandy.  I get what your saying.  But since Reggie is one of the more "prominent" citizens on Ceres I was thinking that he would likely be notified since his name and reputation would carry some weight.  If Joe Average told the authorities he may or may not be believed.   True, Reggie has no official capacity but then again neither does anyone else.

Fair enough, but the way I see it works starts when somebody finds Smyth's body. They call up the Merchant Association's help desk. The association sends an investigator and a med person--just in case. With advanced medical technology, you have to be a lot deader to be really dead, than you do today. The hubbub pulls, in bloggers who report on local news and they put it out there to everyone who follows them. Reggie would have found out about the murders, just like anyone else. After that, unless Reggie has some special forensic background he believes might be useful, he justs keeps out of the way of any investigation.

The investigation probably doesn't go anywhere--even when the Guzmáns report their contacts with Smyth and identify him for the investigators. The hit was professional, so the crime will probably not be solved. Everybody is more aware of possible attacks from behind and life goes on.

Rocketman on July 19, 2009, 02:18:02 pm
Sandy:  Everything that you just said I agree with.  One of the few shows that I watch on television anymore is called "The first 48"  It's a real life unscripted look on E! network at what happens after a murder is committed and a body or bodies are found.  The police know from experience that if they solve the case within the first 48 hours after they are called they have a much better chance that they will find the killer and get a conviction.  Many years ago I went through a combat pistol course and one of the things that I remember is that the former police officer who was the instructor said that the majority of murders are solved because someone snitches on someone else in order to get leniency for the lessor crime that they committed.

SandySandfort on July 19, 2009, 03:07:08 pm
Sandy:  Everything that you just said I agree with.  One of the few shows that I watch on television anymore is called "The first 48"  It's a real life unscripted look on E! network at what happens after a murder is committed and a body or bodies are found.  The police know from experience that if they solve the case within the first 48 hours after they are called they have a much better chance that they will find the killer and get a conviction.  Many years ago I went through a combat pistol course and one of the things that I remember is that the former police officer who was the instructor said that the majority of murders are solved because someone snitches on someone else in order to get leniency for the lessor crime that they committed.

Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute? Great course. Yes, CSI to the contrary not withstanding, the successful use of high-tech forensic techniques is very, very rare. Yes, usually someone talks.

Sean Roach on July 20, 2009, 09:17:43 am
Ah, finally.
Politics.
It'd  been getting kind of dead in here.
This little lecture should get people talking again.

So, are you going to point out that revolutions don't occur when the populous is too beat down, when they barely have enough to survive.  That it wasn't until the Tzars let up on the russian peasants that the commies overran and killed them?
Or are you going to point out that the energy companies had fingers in government, and wouldn't allow a superior technology to supplant them, because they were "too large to fail"?

SandySandfort on July 20, 2009, 10:11:20 am
Ah, finally.
Politics.
It'd  been getting kind of dead in here.
This little lecture should get people talking again.

You know, not everyone is here for the politics, though it certainly is an important element. Among other things, there are, and will be, some "chick flick" threads. Others, just want things to go BOOM! Speaking of women, are there ANY who are reading EFT and following the forum? I mean, some of my best friends are men, but I wouldn't want my brother marrying one. When it comes to a choice between sitting on the porch, drinking beer with the guys or hanging out, talking about feelings, in the kitchen with the girls, girls win hands down. So if you are out there, ladies, please let us know.

So, are you going to point out that revolutions don't occur when the populous is too beat down, when they barely have enough to survive.  That it wasn't until the Tzars let up on the russian peasants that the commies overran and killed them?
Or are you going to point out that the energy companies had fingers in government, and wouldn't allow a superior technology to supplant them, because they were "too large to fail"?

Well, you are on the right track, but remember, Tobi was only using energy as an example of why the government holds him in such bad odor.

 

anything