SandySandfort on May 21, 2009, 08:47:39 pm
Young could have refused to get his hands dirty, but he and every other member of the bridge crew had about an equal opportunity to take the actions that would have been required to actually prevent the Rose family from being killed;

The distinction that can be drawn here is between active and passive steps. The step Young would have taken would be to do nothing. He could have refrained from pulling the trigger. Instead, he took positive action to kill the Rose family. The other bridge crew members, on the other hand would have had to have take positive steps to stop the murders. Under Anglo-American jurisprudence and most other legal systems, there is legal NO duty to take positive action to save another. For example, let imagine that you are standing by a lake, with a twenty-foot rope with a life preserver tied to one end. A fisherman who cannot swim overturns his boat and is drowning ten feet away. If you just stand there and watch him drown, without lifting a finger to toss him the life preserver and pull out, have you violated any law? Does the law impose any duty to save the drowning man? What if you laugh and tell him you are going to stand there and watch him die? The answer is you have not broken any law and the government cannot touch you. If a relative of the drowned man sued you for not attempting to save the man, their case would be thrown out of court.

There are some issues that muddy the water a bit in the case of the bridge crew, but they are under no obligation to save the Roses. They are only obliged to refrain from killing them, themselves. So the navigator is off the hook, but the gunnery officer who shoots isn't.

However, ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and ignorance of right and wrong isn't one either. Because Ceres is a frontier society without a government, it is operating on a different theory of crime and punishment than that with which I am familiar, the one that exists in the state societies we are all immersed in. Thus, any critique I might make might be off-base for that reason.

Actually, Ceres (and the Belt) society operate on a myriad of theories of crime and punishment. But there are large areas of consensus about dispute resolution for practical reasons. Could the case of Harris and Young have been handled in another way? Sure, but it wasn't and it went they way it did because there was no one to say no.

He was granted a quicker death than Harris', of course.

Intentionally so.

SandySandfort on May 21, 2009, 09:02:41 pm
Still doesn't explain why the defecting crew is being given big sloppy kisses on the promenade.

Because they gave up everything and became UW deserters. They voted for freedom with their feet. They could have gone back to Terra and stayed in the military. It is not easy leaving your home and becoming a fugitive.

To say that they were "not as guilty" as Harris/Young is to pervert the idea of proximate cause. For all practical purposes, they had zero guilt in the Roses' death. The Cerereans understood the strength it took for them to turn their backs on Terra and embrace Belter society. For chaos sake, they were siding with Emily for all intents and purposes.

We can go 'round and 'round about this, but I don't think I will change your mind on this, and I know you won't change mine. I have examined it too deeply to see anything but de minimus guilt in the defecting crew members. My Emily and my Belters don't sweat the petty stuff (but most of them do pet the sweaty stuff).  (o:3

quadibloc on May 22, 2009, 07:19:00 am
Actually, Ceres (and the Belt) society operate on a myriad of theories of crime and punishment.

Yes, apparently as many as there are individuals. But your point from the other thread about how this was an execution and not a trial basically does address my feeling that I wasn't quite understanding what was going on. It certainly does make sense that the trial has to precede being placed at the mercy of your victim or accuser.

With the current page... I'm surprised that the UW has given Ceres 150 days to think that it's given up. I suspect that going after the "last" of the tax havens is a feint, and we haven't seen the last of attacks on Ceres. Of course, as you've said there are more story arcs coming, that's no brilliant deduction on my part. I wonder, though, if the next attack won't be with warships.

corwinargentus on May 22, 2009, 10:03:09 am
Quote
I wonder, though, if the next attack won't be with warships.

I believe the UW already sent the "flagship" of its war fleet.  It seems doubtful that there are many of that class of ship in the Terran fleet, probably more of the smaller ships that were sent to support the Gamma Conqueror (once the "pride" of the UW space navy), but not too many more "Conqueror Class" vessels (if any).

I am doubtful that the economy of the UW will really support the construction of a pile more warships at this time, either.  But as we have seen, a failing economy didn't stop spending in the Soviet Union for any possible military advantage.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 10:04:48 am by corwinargentus »
CorwinArgentus
Goodbye, and Hello as always

SandySandfort on May 22, 2009, 10:48:54 am
Actually, Ceres (and the Belt) society operate on a myriad of theories of crime and punishment.

Yes, apparently as many as there are individuals. But your point from the other thread about how this was an execution and not a trial basically does address my feeling that I wasn't quite understanding what was going on. It certainly does make sense that the trial has to precede being placed at the mercy of your victim or accuser.

"Has to precede"? Why? Trials, in the modern sense of the word, have existed for the last couple of hundred years, at most. Any sort of "trial" has only existed for a couplathree thousand years. I doubt there was much of anything you could reasonably call a trial in the hundred thousand years of human history before that. Even today, it is the rare family that holds "trials" for its misbehaved children. Summary spankings or other punishments are meted out without any serious attempt to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" who broke the cookie jar.

With the current page... I'm surprised that the UW has given Ceres 150 days to think that it's given up. I suspect that going after the "last" of the tax havens is a feint, and we haven't seen the last of attacks on Ceres. Of course, as you've said there are more story arcs coming, that's no brilliant deduction on my part. I wonder, though, if the next attack won't be with warships.

Okay, here's a clue: "Softly, softly, catchee monkey."

wdg3rd on May 22, 2009, 08:54:40 pm

Permit me to tweak this "sov" thing a bit. Where you would write, "Mr. Jones is a plumber," I see Belters writing "Sv Jones is a plumber." Where there is dialog, such as, "Hey mister, you forgot your change," Belters would write, "Hey sov, you forgot your change." (But I'm happy to be called either.) I haven't decided yet whether it is "Sv." or just "Sv" (without the period). I sort of lean toward "Sv" like the neologism, "Ms" which the 2nd Wave feminist think they invented (they didn't). What do you readers think?

When the term "Ms" developed in the late 60s, that was at least the fourth wave (on this continent).  Both the abolitionist and prohibition movements were at least as much feminist as "christian".  There seem to have been a couple movements that didn't get written down much, since "Freedom of the Press" only happened if you had a Y-chromosome (even when chromosomes were unknown).  There were a couple of earlier European movements.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

wdg3rd on May 22, 2009, 10:17:16 pm

Just between you, me and the lamp post,


Sandy, at what point in your life were you associated with a police department?  That's purely a cop phrase, at least in the early 70s when I did a summer program attached to the Laconia NH PD (ten high school students increased manpower by 30%).  But it was not rare to hear "this is just between me, you, the lamppost and the kaydet".  (Hey, I was a Heinlein and Rand fan but not actually a libertarian yet -- and it was $75/wk that I didn't yet realise was from stolen money, but I wanted to go to college).

Funny thing is that I was forbidden to carry a weapon in police cadet uniform.  In civs I could carry anything I f ucking wanted to (and could have since my 16th birthday).  So I just carried a length of chain (the kind of thing you'd use to restrain a rabid mastiff by the throat) and (I never told her, or the others in the cop shop) Gramma's best bread knife concealed about my person.

Never had to use them.  Wanted to a couple of times.  (Cops have a weird sense of humor, and when you're a teenage "cadet" handcuffing you to something it would take earth-moving gear [or the key] to free you from is the height of hilarity for the veteran pigs).

And after the money ran out, I wound up in the USAF.  I'm a slow learner.

But I got sort of even in the USAF, but that's another show.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

wdg3rd on May 22, 2009, 10:25:30 pm

That does not mean I am in agreement with what happened to Young. 


You don't have to agree.  You weren't there.  Neither was I.  Emily Rose was.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

SandySandfort on May 22, 2009, 11:15:11 pm
[When the term "Ms" developed in the late 60s, that was at least the fourth wave (on this continent).  Both the abolitionist and prohibition movements were at least as much feminist as "christian".  There seem to have been a couple movements that didn't get written down much, since "Freedom of the Press" only happened if you had a Y-chromosome (even when chromosomes were unknown).  There were a couple of earlier European movements.

I'm sure you are correct about that, but I was writing what is current usage. "First Wave" were the suffragettes, "Second Wave" were the bra-burning, screeching harpies, and today we have the much milder "Third Wave" that benefited from the first two waves, but are more comfortable with female prerogatives. At least that's what I have seen.

Rocketman on May 22, 2009, 11:16:40 pm
I'm 56 and I've heard the expression "Just between you, me and the lamppost" numerous times in situations that didn't involve the police.  Some expressions just like TV show lines "Ward, don't you think your being too hard on the beaver?"  "Little buddy, you've done it again!"  and "Alf, go hide in the kitchen" always last for a while and then disappear only to pop up now and again when you least expect it.  My late best friend when I was growing up when he was upset used to say "Son of a Siberian Sap Sucking Centipede!".  His mom and dad always wanted him not to curse.   ;D

SandySandfort on May 22, 2009, 11:22:50 pm

Just between you, me and the lamp post,

Sandy, at what point in your life were you associated with a police department?  That's purely a cop phrase, at least in the early 70s when I did a summer program attached to the Laconia NH PD...

Sort of never. I did go through the SFPD limited police officer course. (I had ulterior motives), but that phrase dates back to my youth in Missouri, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

wdg3rd on May 23, 2009, 12:09:44 am
I'm 56 and I've heard the expression "Just between you, me and the lamppost" numerous times in situations that didn't involve the police.  Some expressions just like TV show lines "Ward, don't you think your being too hard on the beaver?"  "Little buddy, you've done it again!"  and "Alf, go hide in the kitchen" always last for a while and then disappear only to pop up now and again when you least expect it.  My late best friend when I was growing up when he was upset used to say "Son of a Siberian Sap Sucking Centipede!".  His mom and dad always wanted him not to curse.   ;D

I'll be turning 54 this Tuesday (5/26/09) and I had to put up with a lot of "Ward, you've been too hard on the beaver" jokes as a kid because that's what the "w" in wdg3rd stands for.  The d stands for Donald, and I was called by various diminutives of that while growing up half a dozen miles from Disneyland.

If you Google around, you'll find another Ward Griffiths on this continent.  A former champion bike racer and the first American to fly a human-powered helicopter.  Currently drummer for a folk band in Oregon.  But I'd wager she has issues about the name her parents gave her.  (We have never been in contact, Though Angeleno born and raised, the next time I hit the west coast is if somebody violates my Will and dumps my ashes in the wrong ocean -- if you want want to know which ocean is proper, ask Greg Benford).  (Actually, once I'm dead I don't much care -- properly, I'd like to star in a chili contest, as the main ingredient, since I wouldn't have a problem being part of the world's most perfect food.)
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

deadasdisco on May 24, 2009, 12:27:07 pm
Okay, totally unrelated, but...

"UWRS Chief Quesada-Didio"?  ROFLMFAO!!!

OK, see, I work in a comic shop and... all moral relativism aside, yeah, lets get that sun-on-the-beach!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 01:42:17 pm by deadasdisco »

deadasdisco on May 24, 2009, 12:28:43 pm
Oh, and "Hieronymous Zappa"?

You, Sandy, are a right tease, you are...

Damn, now I really wanna see mars...

Scott on May 24, 2009, 04:13:31 pm
In the original short story, most of the information was given as simple exposition. For the strip, I transformed it into a TV "News From Mars" segment, adding in everything you see in the screen-bottom "crawl" text, and inventing Heironymus Zappa. The outfit he's wearing is copied from the Colin Baker version of Doctor Who (my second least-favorite Doctor, btw, but that's another story). ::)