Rocketman on April 14, 2009, 03:03:15 pm
Today's posting indicates that the individuals on Ceres are planning individual retribution on the Gamma Conqueror.  This is one time when organization is superior to individual action.  Remember that there are six other UW vessels out there with unknown capabilities.  Instead of expending all of their ammo and so on against just one target, they would be better off targeting as many of them as possible.  If you make a surprise attack against the UW you would want to hurt it as much as possible.

deadasdisco on April 14, 2009, 06:29:09 pm
Quote
This is one time when organization is superior to individual action. 

That is possible.  However, it's not really on the menu, withing the setting, the Cereans' individualism is taken as a given, part of the landscape, just like the U-dub's corruption. 

You don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have.  And what they have is Cereans...

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 14, 2009, 06:46:47 pm
I'm not sure why people get so bent out of shape by the concept of a suicide attack, per se. The morality of the action has to do with the nature of the victims, not the method. Getting on a school bus in Israel with the intent to kill innocent children is abhorrent. Sacrificing yourself to blow up a legitimate military target, such as the Gamma Conqueror, is heroic; stupid maybe, but heroic.

I, for one, didn't get bent out of shape because of the concept of a suicide attack; I found myself irritated >:(  that this seemed to be Reggie's first response.  I would have thought that Reggie would have considered a suicide attack as a response of last resort, but surely he would have gotten together the folks from the original "council" at a minimum discussed options before deciding to pursue the suicide route.  After all, it wasn't even his idea for him to be the "pretender to the throne"  ;D

Dress the thing up to look like a scepter, add a gilt crown and heavy necklace.  Put it in a felt lined box and drop it off AS the surrender.

Good idea, although the nuke would be much better disguised as a "soveregn's orb" than a scepter; this would have been a nice homage to the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" in Monty Python and The Holy Grail.

Rocketman on April 14, 2009, 07:10:10 pm

You don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have.  And what they have is Cereans...
True but you would have thought that at least one of them would have said to another "If you have a automated shuttle with a nuke on board, that should take care of the Gamma Conqueror."  "My mining laser will target the nearest troop transport as soon as you do."


I, for one, didn't get bent out of shape because of the concept of a suicide attack; I found myself irritated >:(  that this seemed to be Reggie's first response. 
This wasn't Reggie's first response.  Remember that Reggie tried to reason with Harris and that strategy totally failed.  Like I said before in an eariler post.  The only thing that will bring a facist tyrant like Harris arround is a figurative 2 X 4 right between the eyes.  Nothing else is going to work.

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 14, 2009, 07:36:52 pm
This wasn't Reggie's first response.  Remember that Reggie tried to reason with Harris and that strategy totally failed.  Like I said before in an eariler post.  The only thing that will bring a facist tyrant like Harris arround is a figurative 2 X 4 right between the eyes.  Nothing else is going to work.

I actually meant his first response once peaceful efforts were off the table.  The "agreement to surrender" act was fine; I would have expected Reggie to first think about how to destroy (or disable, but destroy is perfectly acceptable) the GC without the suicidal approach, and if no other good ideas came up go with the suicide bombing.

Reggie has every right to kill himself, but absolutely no obligation to do so.  It's an option, but it's not clearly the best option available.

wdg3rd on April 14, 2009, 09:15:08 pm

Reggie has every right to kill himself, but absolutely no obligation to do so.  It's an option, but it's not clearly the best option available.

It may not be the best option, but considering the dickheads on the other side, it might be the only one that will work.

It's a culture he has lived in for decades where your life is your own responsibility.  He is free to decide the time and manner of his death.  It may be that preserving the culture he loves is an adequate reason.  Damn sure that these days there are enough suicide bombers willing to die to preserve crappier systems.  I'm an atheist and an anarchist so I have no idea what it means to commit suicide for a god or a government, but I'll do it for friends and my [by choice, not necessarily blood] family.  There are several members of my family in these forums.  [Choice, not genetics, my blood relatives aren't big on reading and most of them are welcome to go to whatever hell is willing to put up with them (especially my oldest {a year younger than me} sister's twin sons and their mother)].  But I count Neil, Cathy and Rylla in my family, as well as most of the Liberty Round Table and a lot of the Free State Project.  Oh, and a bunch of Prometheus winners (most of whom I can call friends, and at least half of whom I can call family, I've bought drinks for well over half of them including several who are no longer with us).  Makes for a big family..
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

SandySandfort on April 14, 2009, 09:53:17 pm
Today's posting indicates that the individuals on Ceres are planning individual retribution on the Gamma Conqueror.  This is one time when organization is superior to individual action. 

What makes you think they can't be organized? Sure, they are anarchists, but that doesn't mean they cannot be organized. We've already said it in the strip. Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, it just means no rulers.

deadasdisco on April 15, 2009, 11:02:29 am
Two things to ruminate over...

1) Until we see it on the screen, the 'suicide' option is only that, an option,  a strong option, but an option.  All we know is that Reg has got a nuke under his suit.  We don't know what precisely he means to do with it.  Now, granted, there's a pretty good possibility that its what we think it is.  However, it would also be entirely 'in-setting' for the Cerean (especially Reg) to have a clever, eleventh-hour, dodge to keep from cacking it himself.  I mean, c'mon, thinking outside the box is the whole point of being a freedom-lovin', gun-totin' Cerean, isn't it?

2) While Cereans may not have "rulers", it doesn't mean that they don't have leaders, as individuals they are free  to follow or listen if they chose.  Even Anarchists allow persuasion (I think).  Rulership is an artifact of certain kinds of subsistence systems (a discussion for another time) but leadership is universal.  That being said, from the evidence we've been shown, Reg is one of those voices most listened to (compare Reg to "Shoulda thrown him out an airlock" guy in the meetings).  But he leads by knowing his people.  Reg knows where every eye in the Belt is pointed (at the big-ass Death Star-style thing that's started blowing stuff up) and he knows that if those eyes see an opening, they'll take it.  Reg does not act alone, and he knows it.  Even if all his move does is damage a shuttle and distract Uniform Whiskey for a moment, that'll be a win, because he knows the rest of the Belt will get their shots in at that point...

Rocketman on April 15, 2009, 03:52:15 pm
Reggie has every right to kill himself, but absolutely no obligation to do so.  It's an option, but it's not clearly the best option available.
Not the best option?  He knows that Harris intends at some point to turn him over to his master's at the UW where there will be a show trial and he will be executed.  If he's going to die then Reggie has decided to take some of the bastards with him.  Given the circumstances that is the best of Reggie's options.

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 15, 2009, 05:18:34 pm
Not the best option?  He knows that Harris intends at some point to turn him over to his master's at the UW where there will be a show trial and he will be executed.  If he's going to die then Reggie has decided to take some of the bastards with him.  Given the circumstances that is the best of Reggie's options.

Not clearly the best option.  If there is are options which ends up with Harris and the GC destroyed and Reggie as well as everyone else on Ceres alive and well, then one of those would be the best option.  Such options may or may not exist; if they do not then a suicide bombing being the best option becomes more clear.

The suicide bombing option is a starting point from which I would expect Reggie to immediately look for an alternative which did not involve his own death (or other Cereans, or more damage to their property).  There's been no indication that Reggie was looking forward to dying before this, so it seems reasonable to assume that he would not prefer this solution now.  I am disappointed that Reggie appears to be so stupid -- I would really expect clearer thinking by him.

Rocketman on April 15, 2009, 07:40:30 pm
Not clearly the best option.  If there is are options which ends up with Harris and the GC destroyed and Reggie as well as everyone else on Ceres alive and well, then one of those would be the best option.  Such options may or may not exist; if they do not then a suicide bombing being the best option becomes more clear.

The suicide bombing option is a starting point from which I would expect Reggie to immediately look for an alternative which did not involve his own death (or other Cereans, or more damage to their property).  There's been no indication that Reggie was looking forward to dying before this, so it seems reasonable to assume that he would not prefer this solution now.  I am disappointed that Reggie appears to be so stupid -- I would really expect clearer thinking by him.
Give me a logical and reasonable solution of exactly how he does that.  In detail please.  I'm not saying that there isn't such a thing, but I don't see it.  He doesn't have time to built a life size robot of himself, travel in time to before the attack so he could warn everyone or place a computer virus aboard the ship that will open all of the GC's airlocks at the touch of a button.  Any delay on his part of showing up will just bring a retaliation.  He's left with a lot of bad choices.  Kind of like the Kobiashi Maru, it's not a test of experience but of character.

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 15, 2009, 08:02:02 pm
Give me a logical and reasonable solution of exactly how he does that.  In detail please.  I'm not saying that there isn't such a thing, but I don't see it.  He doesn't have time to built a life size robot of himself, travel in time to before the attack so he could warn everyone or place a computer virus aboard the ship that will open all of the GC's airlocks at the touch of a button.  Any delay on his part of showing up will just bring a retaliation.  He's left with a lot of bad choices.  Kind of like the Kobiashi Maru, it's not a test of experience but of character.

Step one:  Call the Guzmans, brief them and tell them to come over to the "church".  Let others who might help know too.
Step two:  Call other folks he thinks might help; same thing.
Step three:  Wait 50 minutes or so, welcoming and starting people thinking as they arrive.
Step four: Start the meeting.  Let everyone know that, worst case, he is willing to sacrifice himself if someone gets him a pocket nuke; note that he'd like a better solution.  Note that he didn't want to be "King", but he went along with it for the good of the colony, and ask others to help step up and address Harris' "high stick".
Step five:  Brainstorm.
Step six: Pick best solution found, proceed.

Logical and reasonable solution, Q.E.D.


Rocketman on April 16, 2009, 10:33:22 am
That's dodging my question.  I asked how he was going to solve this mess without getting himself killed, not going to ask someone else for advice.  What you advocate is going to take all of the time that they have until Reggie has to leave or face retribution so they wouldn't have the time to implement any of the suggestions even if they (highly unlikely) came up with one in the first place.
  Let me put this another way.  Tell me what you would do if you were Reggie and you had just had the meeting.  What plan would you have?  :-[

cyberbard on April 16, 2009, 11:29:21 am
What gets me is that, apparently, Reggie didn't expect Harris and co. to detect his weapon before he had a chance to deploy or use it.  That strikes me as a huge oversight on his part, and he underestimated Harris.  I'll even go so far as to say that if Reggie expected to simply stroll into a military transport with a small nuke, and expect it to remain undetected until he throws the switch, then he was off his rocker!

Think about it another way.  Harris' people are professional military.  They would have all kinds of tools and equipment that is explicitly designed to detect or disable an opponent's weapons.  And personally, if my adversary told me that he would personally surrender, I would automatically assume he's got a trick up his sleeve, and I would take every precaution I could think of.  Turning on the sensors would be at the top of the list! Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but Reggie's actions would throw up all kinds of red flags for me.

Also consider that Harris came here looking for a fight, so his own arsenal is going to be fully deployed and ready to go.  He wants a reason to start shooting.  Once that nuke is found in Reggie's suit, Harris will have that reason. 

The Belters have better get their other chess pieces in play, and fast.

Corydon on April 16, 2009, 11:46:33 am
What gets me is that, apparently, Reggie didn't expect Harris and co. to detect his weapon before he had a chance to deploy or use it.  That strikes me as a huge oversight on his part, and he underestimated Harris.  I'll even go so far as to say that if Reggie expected to simply stroll into a military transport with a small nuke, and expect it to remain undetected until he throws the switch, then he was off his rocker!

Dollars to donuts that that panel is an authorial bait and switch-- the weapon detected is actually Reggie's sidearm.  Because, you know, carrying guns is such a natural thing for Cerereans that he just plumb forgot about it!  Hahahahahaha.

Still, you'd think that the UW's sensors would pick up nuclear material, too.