SandySandfort on April 24, 2009, 10:48:42 am
Just for comparison, in my setting, people who live on Ceres call themselves Cerians, pronounced Si-rEE-ans.  There is occasional confusion with the Arabic nation with a similar name, but not too much. 

So, in your universe, classicists and grammarians didn't migrate to the Belt?  ;D

I opted for a different style of madness in my setting.  :)

Madness is good. It makes it not "Leave it to Beaver."

cyberbard on April 24, 2009, 12:14:37 pm
So, in your universe, classicists and grammarians didn't migrate to the Belt?  ;D

Some, but they were outnumbered by those who came on the forced migrations.  You can probably imagine what kind of people were on those ships.  Anyway, the name that was shorter, and easier to write and pronounce, was the one that stuck.

Dirty little secret: I hadn't decided on these things until just now.  Ceres is mostly background color in my setting; it's referred to but isn't a feature.  I honestly hadn't thought out most of these things until today.  Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind (without plagiarizing).

:)

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 24, 2009, 12:32:36 pm
... ten continentals says that they could choose to be called "Supercalifragilisticexpialidotions" and still get called "Cereans" or "Belters".
Its like trying to pick your own nickname.  Its not you that decides it...

Sorry, wrong on both counts. "Cerereans" is what they call themselves...

It's interesting that you take the position that the residents all march in lockstep on this issue.  So much for individualism and free thought.  While some, perhaps even most refer to themselves as Cerereans, that does not make it some absolute, unless there is some sort of authortarian Gestapo (or SS ;)) imposing it.

I would use the term "Cerean" for these reasons:

  • The historic precedent, that the newspaper the  Ceres [California] Courier[/i[uses "Cerean" to refer to residents.
  • The construct "Cererean" is an adjectival form, where as "Cerean" is used as a noun.
  • The Cereans would want to disassociate themselves from followers of the goddess Ceres, much as the residents of Lesbos  want to disassociate themselves from gay females, in general (and unlike Lesbos, the Cereans cannot claim historical precedence).
  • Linguistically, as time passes language tends toward more efficient pronunciations, including softening of vowels and the creation of contractions.  While perhaps some residents initially referred to themselves as "Cerereans", this would quickly evolve to the simpler "Cereans".
As can be seen in the concurrent Odysseus comic, the "creators" don't always get the respect they think they merit.  Creations have a tendency to have a mind of their own (see also J. Michael Straczynski's book The Complete Art of Scriptwriting for the literary equivalent).

SandySandfort on April 24, 2009, 04:51:17 pm

Dirty little secret: I hadn't decided on these things until just now...

It's a secret? I thought that's what we all do.  ;D

SandySandfort on April 27, 2009, 09:21:47 pm
Sorry I missed this one earlier.

It's interesting that you take the position that the residents all march in lockstep on this issue.  So much for individualism and free thought. 

Now that is just plain silly. Language is about communication not "individualism." No one is marching lockstep or stifling their own creativity if they choose to say "United States" instead of the more creative and individualistic, "Vespucciland." Just because most Cerereans choose to enhance communications by using words in their generally accepted meaning, does not make them slaves to fashion. Yeah, other Cerereans will know what they mean when the refer themselves as Cereans or Ferdies or Mother Lovers (all of which, plus others will be used in a future arc). However, the clever "unruled" person who seriously chooses these cutesy names should not be surprised if he is dismissed as a language kook.

While some, perhaps even most refer to themselves as Cerereans, that does not make it some absolute, unless there is some sort of authortarian Gestapo (or SS ;)) imposing it.

I would have said "authoritarian," but I understood your individualistic neologism.   ;)

Of course, people can say whatever they want, but if their purpose in speaking is to communicate, it would seem advisable to use the words that best do that.

I would use the term "Cerean" for these reasons:...

Bully for you. I always get a laugh in Panama when I refer to myself as a gringo from gringolandia. Sometimes choosing to tilt windmills works. Tilt away.

Creations have a tendency to have a mind of their own...

Ah, a frustrated writer! I suggest you not try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs. All of my stories and characters have minds of their own. And that is one of the reasons that I know my characters prefer Cererean. My guess is that we will meet some who don't, but they will probably be annoying visitors who think they know better than the locals. I expect that the locals will get a big laugh out of messing with their heads. Look for it about six arcs from now.

NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on April 27, 2009, 11:34:00 pm
It's interesting that you take the position that the residents all march in lockstep on this issue.  So much for individualism and free thought. 

Now that is just plain silly. Language is about communication not "individualism." No one is marching lockstep or stifling their own creativity if they choose to say "United States" instead of the more creative and individualistic, "Vespucciland."

Funny, that I've not run across folks who take umbrage at "US" or "the States", or (among US residents -- residents of other parts of the American may beg to differ) "America".  In fact, I have found most locals use these more often that "United States".  People tend toward simplifying spoken language.


Quote
Yeah, other Cerereans will know what they mean when the refer themselves as Cereans or Ferdies or Mother Lovers (all of which, plus others will be used in a future arc). However, the clever "unruled" person who seriously chooses these cutesy names should not be surprised if he is dismissed as a language kook.

"Cerean" isn't "cutesy"; it's a simpler term with historic precedent.  I'd expect any Cereans to view those who insist on "Cererean" as being a bit silly or pedantic -- much as locals here (Columbus, OH) view those who insist on always referring to "The Ohio State University" (or "The Ohio State University"), rather than "Ohio State" or or "OSU".  I expect that 98% of the locals have real lives and don't worry about such details.

I'm sure it gets debated every once in a while at the local watering holes (outside of hockey season, of course), but after a couple of drinks, the pro "Cererean" side loses when caught slurring their pronunciation.

Quote
Ah, a frustrated writer! I suggest you not try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

I'd just pass on the classic essay, "The Way to Succeed and the Way to Suck Eggs"
(Chapter 69 in The Book of LIes).  :)

About the only thing I'm frustrated at as a writer, though, is not having the time to write as much as I'd like (well, that and the effort it takes to preserve the utility of my writing at work while adhering to the rigid  standard format required).

quadibloc on April 28, 2009, 06:02:22 am
Belters, being a prickly lot, chose "Cererean" early on, just because it is harder to pronounce.

And here I thought they chose that, instead of Cerean, because it was easier and less ambiguous to pronounce. I do recall a collection of SF short stories about Venus that had an introduction advocating Cytherean instead of Venusian, so I don't see why it could not happen that when people start living on Ceres, they wouldn't perhaps settle on a name for themselves different from what we might expect.

Maybe the first Cerereans came from Mississippi.

quadibloc on April 28, 2009, 06:05:33 am
If I lived there, I would still be tempted to use Cerenian, because I don't think I could refer to myself using a word I found impossible to pronounce.

Being confused with a Syrian is bad enough, but being confused with a manatee or a dugong?

SandySandfort on April 28, 2009, 12:01:54 pm
About the only thing I'm frustrated at as a writer, though, is not having the time to write as much as I'd like (well, that and the effort it takes to preserve the utility of my writing at work while adhering to the rigid  standard format required).

Like I said, frustrated. There are many types of writing, but skill in one area does not necessarily translate into skill in another--of course, it doesn't preclude it, either. Some of us are strong tech writers, others excel in fiction and others write poetry or non-fiction articles. I've made money with all of the aforementioned except poetry (no interest, no talent).

Why do I mention money? Because it is the closest thing we have to an objective criteria of value. Your mother and girlfriend will tell you that you are a great writer--no matter how good or bad you are. However, when a fat, bald-headed editor, chomping on a cigar says, "I'll give you a grand for the piece, kid," you know he is sincere. If he says it a second time after the readership has spoken, you can feel pretty good about calling yourself a writer.

deadasdisco on April 28, 2009, 06:30:00 pm
So, funny thing about the Cererians/Cerean/Ceresian/whatever debate, is that while all these terms are being debated, the term that (here on the boards, anyway), has seen the most use (and lets assume for the moments, that we think something like EFT asteroid natives), is "Belter". 

For my money, I like 'Belter', not only is it easier to say, but it has an impressive SF-pedigree, going back to at least the early 70's (Niven's Protector I think...), and, more importantly, its more accurate, since not all Belters live on Ceres (hell, one gets the impression, from the small-town feel, that there aren't all that many permanent residents on Ceres, since presumably most of the residents spend most of there time working at the mining ops).  Belters covers the whole culture, where 'Cererean' would just cover those in the largest settlement.

And, before you say it, Sandy, I know, its your story and they will bloody well call themselves "Eggplant-purple-and-late-for-dinner" if you/they feel like it... ;)  but that's my two cents...

Rocketman on April 28, 2009, 07:10:32 pm
I like the general term "Belter" as well Deadasdisco.  It seems to me that whoever is in the asteroid belt has a stake in this, has likely already chosen their side, and is willing to fight for it if neccessary.  The people on Ceres aren't the only ones involved.  That makes it more technically correct.

SandySandfort on April 28, 2009, 08:17:32 pm
... Belters covers the whole culture, where 'Cererean' would just cover those in the largest settlement.

Can't argue with that. Cerereans are self-described folks who live or are based on Ceres. They are just one flavor of Belter.

And, before you say it, Sandy, I know, its your story and they will bloody well call themselves "Eggplant-purple-and-late-for-dinner" if you/they feel like it... ;) 

No they can't, unless they don't mind being confused with the people who live on Pallas who call themselves "Eggplant-purple-and-late-for-dinner."  ;D


 

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