Leviathan on December 06, 2008, 08:41:28 pm
Rocket, remember...  With the people who believe it's the rich causing all the problems, reality is not of concern.  The "left-anarchists" and socialists (the ones who aren't just practicing the same shit on a different day with a different label, anyway) just want to blame people with any real resources or material wellbeing for the problems of the rest of people.  They refuse to accept evidence of societies doing very, very well at all levels when they have economic freedom.  They refuse to accept that redistribution programs destroy the production infrastructure.  They refuse to accept the fact that graft comes from redistribution schemes.

There's an additional impact if the regime is primarily commie.  Zim might be one of the places I once saw a report on.  In many of these 3rd world nations, if someone seems, even seems, to be doing too well for themselves, the goons come in, take everything he or she has, and bulldozes it.  At this point, it can be even if your ramshackle hut seems to be a little oversized and your equipment doesn't suck in some places.  Even above taxes, inflation, anti-investment.  If government comes in and destroys everything you have for doing too well, you don't even try.  There's no point if you'll never get anywhere.

Frank, it is a bit naive.  These people aren't returning to a tribal way of life.  Their government is systematically destroying them.  Zimbabweans are refugeeing across the planet because their home sucks.  They don't want it to suck.  These aren't people returning to a tribal way of life.  These are people who know nothing of farming, who if they knew anything about farming have no equipment because it's been destroyed, who are getting no financing from anywhere.  Who if they even got anywhere wwould probably have it confiscated from them.  Most of the planet wants an easy modern life if they get the idea of what it is.  Subsistence farming is hard, tough, unrewarding work.  The only one it benefits to have most of the population performing it is a government that has modern arms.  As long as they can keep that variance in levels, it ensures that there's a large population incapable of overthrowing the rulership.  The only benefit to the situation is that it's not sustainable in the long run.  Eventually the troops aren't getting paid because there's no money to pay anybody.  No food.  No goods.  No services.  Their lives suck along with the populace's.  It's one reason the dark ages were a long period of no or negative advancement.  And Zim is engaging in a modern version of feudalism.  Only their "nobility" is revolting faster.  Zim soldiers are rioting at the banks because the currency is worthless.

In short, the soldiers wouldn't have to be pillaging, killing and raping people so much if it's what they want.

Rocketman on December 07, 2008, 05:31:34 am
What can I say?  When I said that my cat knows as much about stock car racing as Mugumbe knows about running the country I was more than likely giving my cat too little credit.  (For a cat he's pretty damn smart)  Everything that you said is in my experience, true.   Anyone who does do in the governments opinion "too well" can find that they're property is taken from them by force under the color of law isn't limited to Zmbabwe however.  The difference is that usually the property ends up in some government officials ownership or some friend of his/hers.
Quote
  Subsistence farming is hard, tough, unrewarding work.  The only one it benefits to have most of the population performing it is a government that has modern arms.  As long as they can keep that variance in levels, it ensures that there's a large population incapable of overthrowing the rulership. 

     I think that hits the nail on the head.  Subsistance farming IS damn hard work.  My grandfather told me more than once about what he had to do to keep food on the table for my grandmother and his young daughter (my mother) during the great depression and having lived on a farm most of my life when I was growing up I know it's true.  I can remember being a skinny 13 year old kid and running a 45 pound davidson chain saw to cut up a bunch of trees that had fallen into the corn field after a windstorm.  When I finished my entire body was shaking from exhaustion.  I laid down in the basement before taking a bath to get the sweat off of me and when I tried to get up to go to the bathroom, my entire right side totally refused to obey me.  They had to rush me to a chiropractor in town to get me to move again.  Let some liberal have an experience like that and I think that he would have a little bit better grasp of reality.

SandySandfort on December 07, 2008, 11:39:55 am
True.  I'm off a fair amount of the time.  But I think the foreshadowing here is pretty direct for today.  Guy believes the source of the Cererean wealth is, laughably, their "unfair" access to natural resources, and he's been overheard.  So I don't know how exactly they'll do it, but I suspect there will be an attempt to induce Guy and Fiorella's eyes to adopt the aspect of sheep.
::)

Leviathan on December 07, 2008, 11:59:57 am
Rocketman, now just imagine trying to do that with at best a barely sharpened axe or machete.  These people don't get chainsaws a lot of the time.  They get handaxes, machetes, a lot of them probably don't even have animals to help ploughing so have to do it by hand too.

Rocketman on December 07, 2008, 10:09:35 pm
Again Leviathan I agree.  I've cut down trees with axes before and it's bad enough with a chainsaw.  Cutting them into 16 to 18 inch pieces that fit in the families fireplace is much worse, especially when it's hard wood like wild cherry or walnut.  I think like you do that the majority of the squatters aren't interested in the old ways as much as they simply don't have the knowledge to do modern farming, even to the level of say late 19th century farming with horse drawn planters and cultivators.  And to the best of my knowledge no one is still even making production parts for something like that anymore and probably hasn't since about 1950, at least not in the United States.

Leviathan on December 08, 2008, 11:36:09 am
Oh, the great irony.  It would probably be a decent transitory market for these poorer places, so they can afford an intermediary if they can't get loans for the bigger modern farming methods.  But the entire reason these people are this poor is because the nations in question are trying to destroy free market exchange.  A free market would help alleviate their suffering, but the reason they're suffering is because the market has been annihilated by government force in the first place.  Isn't it funny? 

The same thing that happened in Zimbabwe happened for a long time after the Korean war.  Lots of land got redistributed as part of the post-war period.  They didn't limit it to captures by Japanese settlers.  They redistributed the wealthier land-owning Koreans too.  Like everywhere that's been under US stewardship, the US tried to manage their economy.  Like everywhere the US tried, it destroyed their economy.  Those that are out from under that basically the local government, despite being occupied by foreign troops, stared them down and practically dared them to open fire for having the audacity to remove themselves from US economic control.

Rocketman on December 08, 2008, 03:37:49 pm
An interm solution to the United Nations way of thinking would be to give them some money to pay for tractors, cultivators and the like and then send them some half way qualified technical experts to show them how to run them and plant crops.  The problem with that right now is that with that total commie idiot running the country that not even the UN is nuts enough to buy anything for them at least right now.  They know that the money would go straight into an offshore account and the average person wouldn't see a penny of it.

Rocketman on December 17, 2008, 12:39:18 pm
Well, since my last post here, there have been more calls for Mugabe to resign by people who have held some sort of romantic image of him when he was a  so called "freedom fighter".  What so irks me is that is that they were more than willing to forgive him is past deeds because he brought "freedom" to Rhodesia through murder, rape, torture and confiscation of private property.  If that bastard doesn't end up in hell when he dies it will only be because Satan wouldn't let him in because he's afraid that Mugabe will try to take over there. :'(

Leviathan on December 18, 2008, 01:29:43 am
Or because there isn't a hell.  But people will remember Mugabe, the Fascist, for generations.  Socialism/communism, taking all the actions it says will turn everything into a utopia, and instead turning it to shit.

Rocketman on December 18, 2008, 09:49:48 am
Or because there isn't a hell.  But people will remember Mugabe, the Fascist, for generations.  Socialism/communism, taking all the actions it says will turn everything into a utopia, and instead turning it to shit.
     That's not quite right but close.  The 1/10 of one percent that are the ruling elite will do actually very well, while the other 99.9 percent wallow in misery taking care of their human leech like masters.  They keep them in check by telling the masses just how bad it is on the outside and how lucky they are to have them protecting the masses from the capitalist exploters.  What a sick joke on humanity.   :'(

Leviathan on December 19, 2008, 04:30:44 am
And yet people still say "we need government!"  We need it like we need seeping anal leakage.

Oh, and my gawd.  Guy has done something useful, competent even.  It's a sign of the apocalypse.  The laws of physics have reversed, and he's proven he's not a total waste of skin!

John DeWitt on December 19, 2008, 07:30:36 am
Oh, and my gawd.  Guy has done something useful, competent even.  It's a sign of the apocalypse.  The laws of physics have reversed, and he's proven he's not a total waste of skin!

Don't worry, I've a feeling he's about to wreck any such notion with his very next words.  The universe will survive.   ;)

SandySandfort on December 22, 2008, 04:51:17 pm
Oh, and my gawd.  Guy has done something useful, competent even.  It's a sign of the apocalypse.  The laws of physics have reversed, and he's proven he's not a total waste of skin!

Don't worry, I've a feeling he's about to wreck any such notion with his very next words.  The universe will survive.   ;)
I love this forum--so many guesses, so few right answers.  ;D
Which is not to say that John isn't right... or wrong. I guess we will just have to wait and see. (I bet it all makes sense in the end, though.)

Rocketman on December 22, 2008, 08:00:57 pm
Sandy:  People (other than you or Frank) who think that they understand how the story is going to unfold are in a sense no different than liberals who think that they understand how that life works because they use their frames of reference to guess at the ending just as they think that life in their opinion should be "fair".  More than likely they're wrong but they don't see it until it's really too late to do anything about it.

SandySandfort on December 22, 2008, 08:52:34 pm
Sandy:  People (other than you or Frank) who think that they understand how the story is going to unfold are in a sense no different than liberals who think that they understand how that life works because they use their frames of reference to guess at the ending just as they think that life in their opinion should be "fair".  More than likely they're wrong but they don't see it until it's really too late to do anything about it.
Well said.