Leviathan on November 19, 2008, 12:16:57 am
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D

SandySandfort on November 19, 2008, 09:01:34 am
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D
He once knew better, but years of pro-state propaganda in government schools and popular culture have paved it over. So now he is about to be put on an accelerated learning curve...

Leviathan on November 20, 2008, 12:45:40 am
...  I think this has just gone off "learning curve" and become a learning cliff  :o  Their speculation that they might be able to convert Ms. Stellina is I suspect either proving to be an understatement, or that Heinleinian Hyper-Competent Femme competence is about to clue her in on just how much a variant the Cerereans (wtf is the term, anyway?) are from Terrans.

Learning cliff:

SandySandfort on November 20, 2008, 07:16:08 am
... Cerereans (wtf is the term, anyway?)...

Bingo, front row. Cerereans it is.

Leviathan on November 21, 2008, 01:09:38 am
Oooh, Heinleinian Hyper-Competent Femme already had a clue!  "Oh, daddy, can't I please have this fully-automatic flechette dolly?  I'll be really good!  I'll even eat my vegetables!"  I love that panel.

Something tells me that at some point, Guy and Fiorella are gonna end up on opposite sides of this one.  I mean, she's already going native  ;D

SandySandfort on November 21, 2008, 07:54:27 am
Something tells me that at some point, Guy and Fiorella are gonna end up on opposite sides of this one.  I mean, she's already going native  ;D
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Life is full of surprises.

Technomad on November 21, 2008, 07:34:05 pm
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 

enemyofthestate on November 21, 2008, 09:41:58 pm
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D
Without gravity to interfere it is possible to more precisely control the growth of polymers.  Or the composition of metal alloys. Or semiconductors.

Or progressive burning propellants for that matter.

Leviathan on November 22, 2008, 02:45:44 am
EotS, heh, my point was that without the persistent threat of the state, innovators not only continue innovating but they have more incentive to do so in order to try and establish their own supply/demand curve (though they wouldn't necessarily understand that's what they're doing).  And those who aren't so innovative, have incentive to copy the hell out of the highly successful.  It keeps innovation up, but prices down.  Because

Technomad, they have wide, open avenues. 

wdg3rd on November 23, 2008, 07:47:11 pm
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 

The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting.  Though I may be confusing Sandy's version with El Neil's (but I think there was some inspiration, I'm pretty sure Sandy has read The Venus Belt and I know damned well Scott has).
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

SandySandfort on November 24, 2008, 10:20:42 am
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 

The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting.  Though I may be confusing Sandy's version with El Neil's (but I think there was some inspiration, I'm pretty sure Sandy has read The Venus Belt and I know damned well Scott has).
With proper preparation and care, you can fire guns in space. (Keep it warm enough not to shatter when fired.) Long guns come in handy when you have to deal with space pirates.  ;)

Yeah, I read Venus Belt, but at my advanced age, I only remember it on a subconscious level. This allows me to "borrow" freely, without feeling guilty.  :-\

Rocketman on November 24, 2008, 06:33:34 pm



The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting. 


I totally agree with Ken too.  And also something to consider is that in the very weak gravity well a bullet will also travel a lot further before it comes to the ground.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 05:39:21 am by Rocketman »

Leviathan on November 24, 2008, 08:11:12 pm
Actually, the gravity is damned low.  Escape velocity on Ceres is 0.51km/s.  This translates out to 1673.23ft/s.  The NRA factsheet lists some common muzzle velocities, and three of their guns fire fast enough to achieve escape velocity.  The .223 Remington, the 30-06 Springfield, and the 44 Magnum.  I'm sure there are others, as the list here lists quite a few, and disagrees with some of the NRA's numbers.  Take them with a grain of salt either way, but they do both agree that given a "flat" surface on Ceres, quite a lot of rounds won't ever hit the dirt.

This page is a handy fact sheet for other fans, heh.  It seems I'd weigh about ten pounds on Ceres.  With a 9hr day, there might be a significant enough coriolis effect to curve shots.  Probably not enough to throw anybody seriously off in a firefight, but a shooting league probably has to figure coriolis in for target shooting.  Pull right if facing Cererean north, pull left if south.  Shoot high if facing east, low if west.

Sandy et al, have you thought about Heinleinian tube transport?  I think in Cat Who Walks Through Walls, he explained that for wider transit, the tube system uses a gauss gun at the start to accelerate to orbital velocity, keeps the capsule in a vacuum during the trip, and then pulls the energy back off at the other end.  Virtually zero energy lost in the transit except the efficiency of the stators at start and finish.  The Cererean Spud-shape might make this a bit touch and go, but if L. Neil has Admiral Heinlein, it's not really plagiaristic to have the tube transports from, well, several Heinlein works, heh.  They seem fairly useful, except for the part where you have to bore a non-euclidean straight line through rock. 

One thing I really hope for when it comes to space flight, is that if it ever gets generalized I'd be trying my hardest to end up out there.  My joint issues are related to connective tissue issues.  They don't hold together.  If I didn't have a full gravity to contend with, I'd probably have almost no pain problems.  Except through anything like jerking motions from, say, an icehammer, heh.  Even Luna would be great.  I could actually use my doublejointedness and have almost none of my side-effects, except nearsightedness that might be related to the collagen in the whites of my eyes being affected along with ligament collage.

SandySandfort on November 26, 2008, 12:45:53 pm
Actually, the gravity is damned low.  Escape velocity on Ceres is 0.51km/s.  This translates out to 1673.23ft/s.  The NRA factsheet lists some common muzzle velocities, and three of their guns fire fast enough to achieve escape velocity.  The .223 Remington, the 30-06 Springfield, and the 44 Magnum.  I'm sure there are others, as the list here lists quite a few, and disagrees with some of the NRA's numbers.  Take them with a grain of salt either way, but they do both agree that given a "flat" surface on Ceres, quite a lot of rounds won't ever hit the dirt.
Quite correct.
This page is a handy fact sheet for other fans, heh.  It seems I'd weigh about ten pounds on Ceres.  With a 9hr day, there might be a significant enough coriolis effect to curve shots.  Probably not enough to throw anybody seriously off in a firefight, but a shooting league probably has to figure coriolis in for target shooting.  Pull right if facing Cererean north, pull left if south.  Shoot high if facing east, low if west.
While true, my WAG is that it would not make a mm worth of difference at social distances or even shoot range distances.
Sandy et al, have you thought about Heinleinian tube transport?  I think in Cat Who Walks Through Walls, he explained that for wider transit, the tube system uses a gauss gun at the start to accelerate to orbital velocity, keeps the capsule in a vacuum during the trip, and then pulls the energy back off at the other end.  Virtually zero energy lost in the transit except the efficiency of the stators at start and finish.
Actually, I have been thinking about taking it one step further. Since, as you pointed out, Cererean escape velocity is about one and a half kilometers per second, it would be possible to have a confined vehicle that would provide negative Gs to the passengers. In other words, it would zoom around Ceres inverted.
The Cererean Spud-shape might make this a bit touch and go...
Ceres is not a spud! It's round like the <ahem> over-sized planets.
... but if L. Neil has Admiral Heinlein, it's not really plagiaristic to have the tube transports from, well, several Heinlein works, heh.  They seem fairly useful, except for the part where you have to bore a non-euclidean straight line through rock.
I don't see any need for that for two reasons. (1) Just run the trains on great circles around Ceres. (2) What rock? There are only a few islands on Ceres. Most of it is covered by a very deep ocean.
One thing I really hope for when it comes to space flight, is that if it ever gets generalized I'd be trying my hardest to end up out there.  My joint issues are related to connective tissue issues.
On Monday and Tuesday, I met with Dr. Michael West. He is "Mr. StemCell." Don't worry about it, a year or two from now, you can kiss that problem goodbye.

Leviathan on November 26, 2008, 03:18:42 pm
Sorry, I must've been thinking of Vesta.  Ceres is not quite spherical, not even as close as Terra and Luna get.  There's almost a 150km difference between equatorial diameter and polar diameter.  About an 8% difference.

I was thinking of the Heinleinian tube system with regards to rock.  Which used Luna rather than Ceres, and so had a lot of rock to contend with.  Ceres would have tubes through ice or on the surface, depending on how stable the ice is, in the example.  The Heinleinian storyline reason why the tube system hadn't expanded particularly on an independent Luna was that there was a high investment threshold.  It was cheaper for them to use ballistics than tubes, even if it cost more energy and had to be scheduled around solar activity, if I recall.

Something about us stretchy types, our nervous systems become adapted to being stretchy.  There's surgeries to tighten the joints up, but we usually just rip the sutures.  If some stem cell treatment tightened the ligaments up, I'd just be in pain for a long, long time if I ever adapted.