wdg3rd on November 09, 2008, 09:18:30 pm

What about black market space ventures?

This where I really have to plug Victor Koman's Kings of the High Frontier.  A dynamite book, and it won a Prometheus before its first dead-tree publication.  Yes, it's a bit dated now (hard to predict those shuttle accidents), but still a damned fine read with some good ideas.  Vic did some damned fine research.

The original publisher, pulpless.com is nonfunctional.  Hardcopies are at http://www.bereshith.com/frontier.htm and have a much better cover than my download.  I own the book in HTML ( from Pulpless, I bought a dozen or so extra licenses to hand out disks to folks at several edges of the Nolan chart and I used them all up -- that took a bit of communication between me and J.Neil, because the system wasn't set for multiples), a signed floppy with the Word document (Vic gave it to me when he got his Prometheus in San Antonio) , and the beautiful Bereshith hardcover.

I repeat, I recommend this book.  If I had the authority, I would recommend this book to whatever deity is currently supervising this planetary system.  (I doubt there is one, but I'm a fewking atheist, so how could I know?  God spoke to Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and Jerry Fallwell, he doesn't say shit to me).
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

wdg3rd on November 09, 2008, 09:26:17 pm
Well said Leviathan.  You pointed out nicely that the game is so incredibly rigged against individuals dealing with pretty much any government that it's a waste of time and money to even start.  Here's something to think about, what if the the United Nations had been founded in say 1500 AD and the legislation pertaining to outer space had instead been applied to the "new world"?

There was a "United Nations" then.  The pope gave half of the new world to Spain and the other half to Portugal.  Look at a map and remember what languages are spoken where.  There may be less native speakers of aboriginal languages in South America than native speakers of Gaelic.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

KBCraig on November 10, 2008, 04:26:58 am
What are they going to do if you make a private spacefight and claim land on the moon? Shoot you down?

No problem. Whoever is on the moon can throw rocks at 'em.  ;)

Leviathan on November 10, 2008, 10:04:17 am
Moon is a Harsh Mistress reference.  Nice.  Only problem is if the businesses that end up with chunks of the moon have earthside interests, they won't be too keen on it.  Which is the issue with getting investment, since they'd be risking the earthside investments by profiting with space-based ventures.

SandySandfort on November 10, 2008, 03:48:39 pm
Moon is a Harsh Mistress reference.  Nice.  Only problem is if the businesses that end up with chunks of the moon have earthside interests, they won't be too keen on it.  Which is the issue with getting investment, since they'd be risking the earthside investments by profiting with space-based ventures.
The only thing wrong with "dropping a rock" is that it is almost always a collectivist solution. "You killed our innocent people, so we will kill your innocent people." In a world like that, it is almost only the innocent people who suffer. Heinlein's solution at least warned the innocents to get the hell out of Dodge. (Yes, some actually went to Dodge, but their deaths were on their own heads, no the Loonies'.) In EFT the subject of bombarding earth with asteroids will come up soon as a bluff, but even that elicits a strong negative reaction.

Leviathan on November 10, 2008, 05:03:43 pm
I have stated that nuclear weapons and other decimation weapons are really only gov vs. gov weapons.  And barely that.  They're a good way to extort large numbers of people with the threat, and if used takes out the powerbase of any given government.  The industries, the taxpayers.  So by hurting the populace, you hurt the gov that feeds on the populace.  Like killing the animal with a parasite to kill the parasite.  It's useless for invasion by a gov, though, because the invading power inherits the same problems that plagued its predecessor.  Except insofar as nuking San Francisco might cause the population elsewhere to be cowed.  Though it by no means eliminates guerilla resistance for the invaders.

Rocketman on November 11, 2008, 11:07:15 am
I agree with Leviathan.  Attacking civilian populations and causing mass casulities is never a good idea given the situation that they're in because the Cerereans don't have anywhere enough people to effectively police earth afterwards if they manage to win.
  Their best option in my opinion is to discredit the two tax collectors and make it appear to drive a wedge between Ceres and Earth to the Earth authorities.  If nothing else it should at least buy Ceres some time.

WDG3rd
   The pope is not the same thing.  He only had some pull over Catholic countries and his decisions were not readily accepted outside of them. 

SandySandfort on November 11, 2008, 01:28:14 pm
I agree with Leviathan.  Attacking civilian populations and causing mass casulities is never a good idea given the situation that they're in because the Cerereans don't have anywhere enough people to effectively police earth afterwards if they manage to win.
  Their best option in my opinion is to discredit the two tax collectors and make it appear to drive a wedge between Ceres and Earth to the Earth authorities.  If nothing else it should at least buy Ceres some time.

Wait for it...

wdg3rd on November 11, 2008, 02:07:46 pm

WDG3rd
   The pope is not the same thing.  He only had some pull over Catholic countries and his decisions were not readily accepted outside of them. 


Well, there were no Catholic countries in the Americas before the papal decision to divvy them up..
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Sean Roach on November 12, 2008, 10:14:00 pm
And how much of europe was Catholic at the time?  I think Greece may have been non-catholic...

Rocketman on November 15, 2008, 12:03:21 pm
WDG3rd:  I was thinking along the lines of an UN like orgainzation that would include all or at least most of the civilized or semicivilized nations of the time, irregardless of their religion.  The list for example would include Nippon (Japan) and Cathay (China).  But as far as it goes your right.  Both Portugal and Spain and even England of the time were Catholic.