wdg3rd on November 07, 2008, 06:40:29 am
This series could wind up shorter than I expected.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Leviathan on November 07, 2008, 09:21:08 am
Oooh, shivers.  Their treaty sounds like something I'd get out of the anarcho-communist crowd, heh.  I'm torn between wanting a raincoat or just non-association with anybody receiving that "appropriate response".  Probably safest to be at a distance from that "appropriate response" regardless, but for the sake of the series I imagine they'll just end up marooned there while the cereans? cerereans?  end up preparing another "appropriate response" should any attempt be made to seize their assets for redistribution to the UW.  The UW has never, apparently, had to deal with a well-armed populace.  Ahh, the lessons they should've learned from Somalia, heh.

SandySandfort on November 07, 2008, 12:59:59 pm
Oooh, shivers.  Their treaty sounds like something I'd get out of the anarcho-communist crowd, heh.
Actually, the wording is taken verbatim from Article 4 of the the real, "Agreement Covering Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies."[/size]

Monkt on November 07, 2008, 01:46:50 pm
Oooh, shivers.  Their treaty sounds like something I'd get out of the anarcho-communist crowd, heh.
Actually, the wording is taken verbatim from Article 4 of the the real, "Agreement Covering Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies."[/size]
                              Article 4

1. The exploration and use of the moon shall be the province of all
mankind and shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of
all countries, irrespective of their degree of economic or scientific
development. Due regard shall be paid to the interests of present and
future generations as well as to the need to promote higher standards of
living and conditions of economic and social progress and development in
accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

2. States Parties shall be guided by the principle of co-operation and
mutual assistance in all their activities concerning the exploration and
use of the moon. International co-operation in pursuance of this
Agreement should be as wide as possible and may take place on a
multilateral basis, on a bilateral basis or through international
intergovernmental organizations.

Leviathan on November 07, 2008, 07:33:54 pm
Oh, Lysander damn it...  That's one hell of an act.  Has anybody ever, yanno, smacked them up?  Driven it home that they basically declared that anybody colonizing anywhere in space is the bitch of the UN?  No wonder nobody's been investing heavily in it.  They expect that they'll never see a dime of profit from any space ventures, if they want to keep doing anything earthside.  Or the UN (and associated nations using the UN mandate as justification) will destroy their terran holdings to secure the proceeds from the space businesses.

It makes me hate those politicians even more.  By what grounds do they claim juristiction to make treaties concerning currently uninhabited territories?  Yanno, thinking of it, what grounds does the UN have for making claims on who owns Antarctica?  Was anybody there used as a signatory to the treaties covering the continent?

wdg3rd on November 07, 2008, 08:35:04 pm
Oh, Lysander damn it...  That's one hell of an act.  Has anybody ever, yanno, smacked them up?

I do know that Jerry Pournelle bitched at Reagan (to his face) for signing the fucking thing.  It is indeed an atrocity.

By the way, everywhere in my writings you see the string "frack", I meant F+U_C~K.  I don't speak Battlestar Galactacese natively.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Leviathan on November 07, 2008, 09:14:44 pm
And to think I was annoyed enough when I knew the gov was subsidizing its own crappy spaceflight, and making it illegal to engage in spaceflight privately.  Now I know they made it illegal to own space?  Talk about locking us in.

Monkt on November 07, 2008, 09:32:38 pm
And to think I was annoyed enough when I knew the gov was subsidizing its own crappy spaceflight, and making it illegal to engage in spaceflight privately.  Now I know they made it illegal to own space?  Talk about locking us in.
What are they going to do if you make a private spacefight and claim land on the moon? Shoot you down?

Rocketman on November 07, 2008, 09:55:54 pm
More than likely they would used some little known charge to arrest you and confiscate your spacecraft, put you on a show trial where the verdict has already been decided and ship your butt to some out of the way military prison where you would spend the rest of your life talking to the cockroaches while at the same time denying you the right to an attorney.   >:(

Leviathan on November 07, 2008, 11:27:34 pm
Or, take the lifeblood out of such a project.  Confiscate the earthbound property of anybody who stakes such a claim.  Any spacebound business would then be required to either try to profit indirectly from a space presence, or essentially give up ever being involved with earthside commerce again.  Assuming a terran government doesn't launch a military assault on any territories held out there.  Or, just tax the hell out of it.

Essentially that declaration of the commons pulls the plug on private space ventures where it'll hurt'em the most: the chance to earn money.

Monkt on November 08, 2008, 12:50:28 am
Or, take the lifeblood out of such a project.  Confiscate the earthbound property of anybody who stakes such a claim.  Any spacebound business would then be required to either try to profit indirectly from a space presence, or essentially give up ever being involved with earthside commerce again.  Assuming a terran government doesn't launch a military assault on any territories held out there.  Or, just tax the hell out of it.

Essentially that declaration of the commons pulls the plug on private space ventures where it'll hurt'em the most: the chance to earn money.
What about black market space ventures?

Rocketman on November 08, 2008, 10:54:36 am
Monkt:  Even if you had Warren Buffet's money that wouldn't work.  Let me give you one example.  Frequently, the US government goes after individuals that in their opinion cheat on their taxes.  If the individual has all his money in an offshore account what they do is to go to a subsidiary of that bank in the United States and sieze the amount from that bank telling them "We've taken the twelve million out of John Smith's account and now it's up to you to get it from him if you want your money back".   See how it works?  It's kind of like playing poker with someone who already knows what cards are in your hand before they make their bet.  With all the money laundering laws on the books they can do pretty much anything they want.   >:(

Leviathan on November 08, 2008, 06:07:41 pm
And if the bank doesn't have a subsidiary/affiliate in the states, they just threaten to push'em off the EFT network and put embargos on any country brash enough to permit their banks to be so anonymous.  They managed to get swiss banks to link identities with their accounts, I think the cayman islands also caved.  If they haven't, it's only a matter of time. 

So any company that makes the investment has to be planning to go extra-terran with its entire company, and frankly most current companies rely on gov intervention for their market position, so even if the move pays off for the people in general, it's not gonna pay off for any of them.  The lack of continued Terra presence essentially puts everybody who doesn't have gov sanction and probably subsidy (look at what NASA is gonna be doing with the private space ventures while it doesn't have a shuttle) out of the race, and ensures that should a private venture have the ability to establish a lunar/etc. base is gonna have to figure out how to do it within the rules.  And probably prevent anybody it brings up to do so from breaking them, either.  If the US/UN/etc. decide they're benefitted by going after a company it wants that's just letting profit be had by the people working for it, they could lose their holdings here until they "deal" with it.

There's little "appropriate response" available, though.  If the Cerereans have a poverty-stricken trading partner, they depend on the trade as much as the partner does.  The UW in this SL is probably just realizing they're at risk of losing control.  Much like the only possible mentality for the interference in Somalia's rebuilding efforts is that they can't have a nation free of governance actually succeeding.  That would imply we don't need them at all here, either.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 06:14:05 pm by Leviathan »

Rocketman on November 08, 2008, 07:19:51 pm
Well said Leviathan.  You pointed out nicely that the game is so incredibly rigged against individuals dealing with pretty much any government that it's a waste of time and money to even start.  Here's something to think about, what if the the United Nations had been founded in say 1500 AD and the legislation pertaining to outer space had instead been applied to the "new world"?

Monkt on November 08, 2008, 07:59:16 pm
What was that former Soviet republic that had a space program?

 

anything