enemyofthestate on October 02, 2008, 10:22:23 pm
So, if it wasn't him that said that, Washington becomes just another authoritarian bastard and not a hypocrite.  Alright.
He was not a god but a man who walked the same Earth as the rest of us.  He could have been President for life but he left after two terms establishing a precedent respected for over 140 years until Roosevelt.   After the War of Independence he could have marched the Continental Army to Philadelphia and made himself king. He was popular enough he probably would have succeeded.  So while you consider his faults remember that twice in his life he willingly gave up power.

Rocketman on October 03, 2008, 10:47:07 am
I can only speak for myself but if Washington were alive today and able bodied enough then I would MUCH rather him be president that either Obama or McCain, my first choice would still be Thomas Jefferson however.  ;D

Monkt on October 03, 2008, 09:35:14 pm
I can only speak for myself but if Washington were alive today and able bodied enough then I would MUCH rather him be president that either Obama or McCain, my first choice would still be Thomas Jefferson however.  ;D
Why would you want a president at all? Why not write in None?

Leviathan on October 04, 2008, 03:45:58 am
Agreed, why have one?

And if Washington abused the office when it was at its nadir (I think that's the term), what do you think he'd do with the office now?  McCain seriously proposed that Bush should bypass the congress for this bailout, that passed anyway mind you.  And it would've worked.  Why?  Because government has no limits, and the dictator has no limits.  Not "it doesn't have them anymore".  When government is the judge of whether it's broken its rules, there aren't any.

Anyway, this started with me saying I'd rather breathe vacuum than live under the EfT government.  And it just got one step closer to being the EfT government.  The bailout passed. 

Rocketman on October 04, 2008, 11:36:13 pm
Yep, the "bailout" passed.   >:(  Throw enough slop in front of a pig's face and they'll usually move the way that you want them to.  I noticed that one of the pieces of slop was a cutting taxes to benefit a company making toy arrows.  That seems appropriate.  Now instead of knifing the American people in the back they can stand off at a distance and use arrows.  >:(

Leviathan on October 06, 2008, 11:19:20 am
Being tossed out an airlock is starting to look downright appetizing by comparison.

SandySandfort on October 06, 2008, 06:28:02 pm
Anyway, this started with me saying I'd rather breathe vacuum than live under the EfT government.  And it just got one step closer to being the EfT government.  The bailout passed. 

The only place in the EFT universe that has anything like what we would think of as a government is the Earth. It's world government is called the UW (United World) and even that isn't exactly true...

Leviathan on October 06, 2008, 09:17:44 pm
Hence the EfT government.  Rather than the EfT terran totalitarian nanny state.  That is one insane set of rules to be forced to live by, and ours gets one step closer to it every day.  Only we don't yet have Luna or the 'roids to expat to.

quadibloc on August 04, 2010, 02:42:28 pm
In many ways, Washington was the worst kind of hypocrite.  His famous quote, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! It is a dangerous servant and a terrible master," should show he knew what he was doing.  He did it anyway.  Such is what government is and does.
Even if Washington did say that, that wouldn't make him a hypocrite.

Do you drive a car? Gasoline is a dangerous servant. It catches fire easily. For that matter, fire is a dangerous servant. Do you think we should do without it?

It isn't hypocritical to make use of electricity - while reminding people that taking appropriate safety precautions around electricity is important. That is how I would interpret this statement, whoever actually made it. Government is a very dangerous thing - but sometimes you need to make use of dangerous things. So you have to not forget that you have to be careful with them.

He knew he was doing. But unlike many of the people on these forums, he didn't think he had the choice of not doing it.

wdg3rd on August 04, 2010, 09:27:06 pm
In many ways, Washington was the worst kind of hypocrite.  His famous quote, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! It is a dangerous servant and a terrible master," should show he knew what he was doing.  He did it anyway.  Such is what government is and does.
Even if Washington did say that, that wouldn't make him a hypocrite.

Do you drive a car? Gasoline is a dangerous servant. It catches fire easily. For that matter, fire is a dangerous servant. Do you think we should do without it?

Actually, gasoline can be a pain in the nuts to get (and keep) burning.  Despite what you see on TV, tossing a lit cigarette into a pool of gasoline will not make it burn.  (When I was a pump jockey, I demonstrated that regularly).  If you've ever done a tune-up on an old car with carb, points and plugs, it can be a real bitch to get the series of controlled explosions you need to get it from home to the mechanic who knows how to do it better.

Of course I couldn't do without fire, in fact "Fire!" is the planned name when I open my restaurant.  But I can certainly do without a disease masquerading as its own cure.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

quadibloc on August 05, 2010, 03:20:18 pm
But I can certainly do without a disease masquerading as its own cure.
Fair enough.

My point was that I don't think Washington knew about all the clever ideas discussed here about how people could get by without government by having accredited competing security agencies and toll roads.

Owning a gun is certainly cheaper than paying a share of a policeman's salary, and more likely to protect you when you need it.

Honest working people sometimes have to contend with various types of criminal who prey on them.

Arming themselves is one way to cope with it.

If that isn't enough, a few of them can band together to deal with the problem.

If the problem is so bad, though, that the whole community has to pitch in to deal with it - and the effort to be demanded of everyone is so great that there will be the constant temptation to slack off - then you have to have a system where the community can agree on what's needed, and make everyone put in their fair share. Government with taxes and conscription.

If it's either that, or let foreign conquerors or organized crime gangs win, then most people have agreed that it's better to put up with a little initiation of force from a majority within a community in which you have a voice than to let oneself become the slave of those who see you only as prey.

If Hitler's concentration camps, or Stalin's gulags were just a hoax dreamed up by American politicians in order to hold on to their power, that would be different. But they weren't. As long as the world remains as dangerous as it is, as long as immense effort is needed to keep terrible nightmares at bay, relenting in that effort to make things a little better at the risk of letting them get very much worse is going to be a hard sell.

That's why pretty well all the countries on Earth are organized not to make people free and happy so much as to be able to win wars. They've had no choice; being within reach of aggressors meant this was the only way to survive. Getting out of this trap is going to be hard, and pretending it isn't there won't be the solution.

ContraryGuy on August 06, 2010, 01:42:47 pm
Quote
  If you really want a shock look for a Doug Casey article entitled "The Philippines"  In a nutshell it is the story of two men of exactly the same age.  One man (the American) works his whole life and has an estate of a little over a million dollars which after the IRS gets it's cut ends up with money for his family to purchase a nice home.  The Chinese man on the other hand works his entire life and leaves his family a half a billions dollars inheritance tax free.  How?  Simple.   Compound interest working the the Chinese's favor.

You also have to understand that America has a high cost of living, American citizens have a high standard of living, and Chinese citizens save huge amount so their earnings; which Americans do not.
The amount of money a successful Chinese person has to pay in bribes, etc. is roughly equivalent to to the amount of taxes a successful American must pay(assuming that the American has hired a competent tax attorney(or lobbyist), which makes his tax bill somewhere between 4 and 17%).

Also, it is not mentioned in this post whether the author took into account the disparity in exchange rates.  As we are all aware, a person can by alot more in China than in America for the same amount of money.

The posters intended point about Americas unfair taxation is destroyed by his last sentence about compound interest.  If we assume tha the Chinese person is saving at his countries average saving rate of 20%, then it is easy to see how that person inheritance is so large.
If the American were to save 20%, and relinquish a commensurate standard of living, that American would have leave a similar inheritance, even after taxation.

I wish posters would try to make the same point throughout their post and not destroy their own point by stating the obvious.
Of course the Chinese leave more behind; if Americans lowered their standard of living to the same level of the Chinese(which is something that the Republicans and Big Business are already doing to us), AND saved 20% of our income over the course of our working lifetime, then Americans would leave behind huge inheritances also.  Even after taxation!

The miracle of compound interest work as well for Americans as it does for the Chinese.

The poster is obviously trying to rile up emotion with a clear mis-statement of obvious truths.

It is the equivalent of the brothers in the story, in their predicament, blaming their predicament on a lack of government instead of creating a solution, as they have done.

dough560 on August 08, 2010, 11:05:31 pm
You unknown great, great uncle's will, leaves you ten million dollars in a tax deferred account.  Your Federal Estate Tax Rate is 55%.  And your income tax rate is 33%.  To keep it simple, we'll forget about state estate and income taxes.  Your only source for funds to  pay these taxes is your inheritance.  Take as much time as you like.  After you pay all your taxes.  How much do you get to keep?  By the way you have nine months to make your tax payments, before penalties set in.

John DeWitt on August 09, 2010, 07:39:17 am
Do you drive a car? Gasoline is a dangerous servant. It catches fire easily. For that matter, fire is a dangerous servant. Do you think we should do without it?

It isn't hypocritical to make use of electricity - while reminding people that taking appropriate safety precautions around electricity is important. That is how I would interpret this statement, whoever actually made it. Government is a very dangerous thing - but sometimes you need to make use of dangerous things. So you have to not forget that you have to be careful with them.

Gasoline and electricity don't have minds of their own - they don't set out to deliberately subvert their own function.  I don't know who wrote that quote, but he still got it wrong - Government is a poor master and an impossible servant, since no matter what its claims to the contrary it has no intention of being a servant.  Thinking you can "make use" of it is hubris.

Here's another quote: "There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster.  Until we develop traditions that make such men afraid every time they lay down to sleep that they won't live to wake up, government will be an unacceptable danger - far worse than the evils it promises to protect us from.

J Thomas on August 09, 2010, 08:18:21 am
Here's another quote: "There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster.  Until we develop traditions that make such men afraid every time they lay down to sleep that they won't live to wake up, government will be an unacceptable danger - far worse than the evils it promises to protect us from.

We've had governments ever since people started farming. When you can't defend your crops and you can't just pick up and move, you depend on the good will of anybody who can destroy your farm. And if one group that can do that will mostly keep the others away, that's a plus. This approach left us with 4000 years of kings.

We might be able to change all that by developing traditions. The swiss developed a tradition that they didn't put up with kings, and they've lived up to that for centuries now. They are culturally extremely stodgy. They have a lot of traditions they don't break.

Would a workable AnCap society necessarily be so stodgy you wouldn't want to live there? I think if you don't like it and they let you leave, then you shouldn't have much complaint. That's vastly better than some of the alternatives.

So, we don't yet know what's workable and we won't find out except by trying. And a workable AnCap society would need to survive in a solar system that still has some governments. If you can't live with a government next door, then you have to control your neighbors to keep them from having a government, and it's all downhill from there. So it probably has to start with fairly small groups that grow as more people take it up, that somehow coexist with nearby governments.

 

anything