Leviathan on September 26, 2008, 06:28:07 am
That world briefly described...  It's all too likely the direction we'll be taking, and it makes me sick.  I'd rather go into space without a suit than live in that.

SandySandfort on September 26, 2008, 10:23:32 am
You do live in that world, but don't inhale the aether yet.

Rocketman on September 26, 2008, 10:36:54 am
As much as it hurts me to say it, that is the direction that the country (and the rest of the world) is heading.    >:(  I made the comment before that libertarian loving (that is to say freedom and individuality) people living here in America might want to start making plans to find another country that the neo-con's and the proto communists haven't totally corrupted.  Personally right now I've started to learn spanish and doing research on several different promising countries.

Leviathan on September 26, 2008, 10:42:17 am
I'd prefer freedom to either, but g'damn the gov in this comic is stifling to the level I'd rather be dead than live under.  1984 through a democratic process.  At that point there's nothing left to risk by rising up.  I really would rather be dead than live under that degree of intrusive power.  Though I'm aware we live under that kind of intrusive power already, just to a less obvious degree.

I believe I've stated my anarcho-capitalistic stance in other threads?

As the Phillippines start to look better and better, I really should work on learning to habla castellano/espagnol.  It's my current target for trying to compete with government for its traditional services.

SandySandfort on September 26, 2008, 02:04:53 pm
If either of you two are interested in Latin America, I can help you. I live in Panama (6.5 years), am planning on moving to Uruguay and will soon be visiting Paraguay on business.

Rocketman on September 26, 2008, 04:34:08 pm
Sandy:  Panama and Uruguay are two of the top countries that I have been looking at.  The problem is that right now I can't leave the area that I am in now.  If I could I would already be on my way down there to check things out.  If I could would you be willing to contact me via private e-mail so I can ask you some questions?

Faysmith on September 26, 2008, 04:35:05 pm
Why is everyone talking about running away? Granted, it's not a good idea to get in a fight with a federal government, as witness  Waco, but are you sure you aren't trading one tyranny for another? Wouldn't it be better to find others of like mind and try to form a voting bloc? It would be tricky of course, since there's indications that there is massive vote fraud going on, besides the old fashioned gerrymandering and dirty tricks. It's not like there's a frontier to run away to anymore.

Rocketman on September 26, 2008, 05:49:36 pm
Why is everyone talking about running away? Granted, it's not a good idea to get in a fight with a federal government, as witness  Waco, but are you sure you aren't trading one tyranny for another? Wouldn't it be better to find others of like mind and try to form a voting bloc? It would be tricky of course, since there's indications that there is massive vote fraud going on, besides the old fashioned gerrymandering and dirty tricks. It's not like there's a frontier to run away to anymore.
  After a while you just say to yourself is it really worth it all?  The America that I grew up in bears little or no resemblance to this one although sometimes I think to myself that maybe it's always been just this bad but those in power did a better job of hiding it back then or maybe I was just a lot more naive.   "A voting block?"  We have a "voting block" now.  Pretty much everyone that I talk to is sick of what the government is doing but try to get them to vote for anyone except for a republican or democrat.  If it was just the taxes I could live with that but what they're doing is using our tax money is to take our liberties from us by keeping the American people in a constant state of panic.  If you really want a shock look for a Doug Casey article entitled "The Philippines"  In a nutshell it is the story of two men of exactly the same age.  One man (the American) works his whole life and has an estate of a little over a million dollars which after the IRS gets it's cut ends up with money for his family to purchase a nice home.  The Chinese man on the other hand works his entire life and leaves his family a half a billions dollars inheritance tax free.  How?  Simple.   Compound interest working the the Chinese's favor.

SandySandfort on September 26, 2008, 08:06:18 pm
Anyone who wants to talk about expatriation in general and Latin America in particular, may contact me at sandfort@gmail.com. So let's take this off line and get back to talking about Escape From Terra  ;)

Leviathan on September 27, 2008, 12:45:38 am
It's actually difficult to have a multi-directional conversation about such...  One option is to use an IRC client, x-chat or mIRC, and connect to any of the #libertarian channels on efnet, undernet, irc.breakthematrix.com, or ##libertarian on freenode.  I'm actually founder on freenode and breakthematrix, though only freenode, breakthematrix, and undernet are linked by my bot.  Efnet has an outpost of the bridge, but it's #ronpaul2008, an alternative originally to the profanity and other censorship rules of the ron paul advocacy channel.  I bridged it since I was one of the ops there.

Anyway, I would go out to the belts in a heartbeat.  Low gravity and zero gravity would be almost perfect treatments, likely, for my joint issues and it would be out from under the scrutiny and supervision of any established government.  Population would likely be too fluid for anybody to really hold sovereignty, or more accurately quite a lot of people would hold effective sovereignty over individual rocks in space.

Hence the discussion of expatriation.  Leaving this regime would be much like leaving that one.  Only, as stated, there isn't a frontier left here.  Just the lesser of evils.  One positive development is that private space flight is becoming a reality.  We may have a frontier again within our lifetimes.  And if th predicted universe of EfT happens, I'm sure all of us would jump ship like we would if we saw the wibbly blue portal of Probability Broach form.  The only way to save this country from itself is to find somewhere the tree of liberty can find fertile soil, in the hopes that it can one day be re-introduced here.  If EfT comes to be, that becomes planet.

SandySandfort on September 27, 2008, 09:08:17 am
Anyway, I would go out to the belts in a heartbeat.  Low gravity and zero gravity would be almost perfect treatments, likely, for my joint issues and it would be out from under the scrutiny and supervision of any established government.  Population would likely be too fluid for anybody to really hold sovereignty, or more accurately quite a lot of people would hold effective sovereignty over individual rocks in space.

You are on the right track, but remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.

wdg3rd on September 27, 2008, 10:24:26 am
Anyway, I would go out to the belts in a heartbeat.  Low gravity and zero gravity would be almost perfect treatments, likely, for my joint issues and it would be out from under the scrutiny and supervision of any established government.  Population would likely be too fluid for anybody to really hold sovereignty, or more accurately quite a lot of people would hold effective sovereignty over individual rocks in space.

You are on the right track, but remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.


Vigilance preferably maintained by a nice Bushnell scope.  Vote from the rooftops.  (I, too, would prefer to work from the high ground beyond Mars, but I've resigned myself that it isn't going to happen in my lifetime unless NASA and the FDA are both eradicated -- so I'll use whatever high ground I can get).
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Leviathan on September 28, 2008, 04:05:18 pm
Well, NASA is slowly admitting it's worthless.  They've started doing what government does when it thinks something's a good idea, subsidizing spaceflight.  In order to have something that's domestic to go to and from the station-that-serves-no-purpose up there.  Sorry, serves no purpose but to be a place to toss a lot of money and set fire to it...  By the time private space flight catches up from having been fairly quietly banned, though, we might end up with moonbases at the least.  We.  The people.  Not government managed debacles.

The price of liberty is responsibility, though.  Vigilance may be a byproduct, but one isn't vigilant against the intrusions of a thief by letting him in the door, telling him to sit in the corner where you keep your rifles, and expect him to behave.  That's what minarchism does, really.  In many ways, Washington was the worst kind of hypocrite.  His famous quote, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! It is a dangerous servant and a terrible master," should show he knew what he was doing.  He did it anyway.  Such is what government is and does.

enemyofthestate on October 01, 2008, 09:55:41 pm
In many ways, Washington was the worst kind of hypocrite.  His famous quote, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! It is a dangerous servant and a terrible master," should show he knew what he was doing.  He did it anyway.  Such is what government is and does.
AFAIK, no one has been able to verify that quote as being said or written by Washington anyways.  Given his unabashed support for a strong (in 19th century terms) Federal government it is also a very unlikely sentiment.

Quote
the Unity of Government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main Pillar in the Edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home; your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty which you so highly prize.

Real quote from Washington's Farewell address http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell/text.html

Leviathan on October 02, 2008, 04:22:23 pm
So, if it wasn't him that said that, Washington becomes just another authoritarian bastard and not a hypocrite.  Alright.

 

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