jrl on June 27, 2007, 10:51:20 am
Rocketman - You know, if you don't contradict yourself once in a while over time, you probably aren't thinking any new thoughts, a fate largely indistinguishable from death.

One of the things other people are for is to make you think about what you said.

You know, some of the things I said and more of what I thought 35 years ago when I was in love with authority raise my blood pressure just thinking about 'em.

An ex-communist who eventually became an officer of a monarchist group, started me on the journey towards anarcho-capitalism. He put me on to a book by an Austrian monarchist, Eric von Kuehnelt-Leddihn (SP?) entitled _Leftism_ which so far as I can tell, was the first to re-organize political movements & theories by ranking them with respect to individual freedom, putting anarchists on the far left and communists and fascists together on the far right. Needless to say, while he was a monarchist, he was also a minarchist.

Rocketman on June 28, 2007, 08:23:54 pm
Instead of a straight line graph I prefer using a slight variation of the two dimensional one the Libertarian Party
uses.  As far as your first comment goes, it reminds me of a saying that my grandfather said to me many times when I was growing up.  "The only people who never make mistakes are the people who never do anything."

Zeppflyer on June 28, 2007, 08:50:17 pm
Sorry to respond to such a cold thread, but Zepflyer wrote:

“The vast majority of theists of any stripe have no desire to force their views on others as it is A) morally wrong, and B) ineffective; and we would prefer not to be categorized with those who would.”

Perhaps this is true today, but historically, political “leaders” have been inclined to force those they rule to follow their religious preferences. Look at the “Hundred Years War:” The whole point of the exercise was to force Central Europe to be Catholic or Protestant, depending on who won.

Likewise, in the recent past the Taliban used it's power to enforce conformity to a singularly narrow interpretation of Islam. Indeed the Saudi royal family to this day dares not step far from the line dictated by Wahhabi leaders.

“Freedom of Religion” was a pretty radical concept in the eighteenth century when it was incorporated into the U.S. Constitution, and it is far from universal even today.

Wow!  I haven't been here in ages and I find this Frankenstein's Monster of a thread.

Granted.  I think, though, that you mean the 30 Years War.  While it was ostensibly Protestant vs. Catholic, the real cause in the background was to see whether the continent would be dominated by the Hapsburgs of Spain and Austria or the French under Cardinal Richelieu, who used Lutheran Sweden and it's North German (Protestant) allies as a cat's paw.  Most of the war was fought by mercenaries who switched their denomination to whoever was paying better that week.

That said, it is true that there have been many theocratic dictatorships throughout history.  However, there have also been some pretty brutal atheistic ones (USSR, China, etc.)  It just goes to show that those who want power will latch onto whatever they can use to get and hold it.  Religion, here, has been corrupted and is now merely a tool of dictators.

As to the laws remaining in this country.  Us Christian libertarians are fighting a bit of an uphill battle here, but rest assured that there are those of us who realize that while it may have been OK for the Puritans to set rules for themselves in their little colony, we do not have the right to force them on everyone else.  Speaking to that Florida law, do you really think that one gets enforced too often?

Roberta X on June 29, 2007, 07:22:24 am
Wouldn't even once be "too often" for said Florida how-you-may-do-it law?  (I'm pretty sure all of Key West has express tickets to jail.  Guess that explains that whole "Conch Republic" schtick!)
By 1913, it was too late.

Zeppflyer on June 29, 2007, 08:04:33 am
Wouldn't even once be "too often" for said Florida how-you-may-do-it law?  (I'm pretty sure all of Key West has express tickets to jail.  Guess that explains that whole "Conch Republic" schtick!)

Granted.  Once is once to many for any unjust law.  (Whether there can be a just law requires a thread of its own.)  At a guess, it probably hasn't been enforced at least since the invention of Viagra.  Can you imagine the hoards of frustrated seniors storming government buildings with their walkers and scooters?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 08:06:18 am by Zeppflyer »

Rocketman on June 29, 2007, 09:19:49 pm
Just wait until the market tanks and the seniors find out their pensions are barely enough to put cat food on the table, let alone pay the rent and taxes.  :(

jrl on June 29, 2007, 10:13:00 pm
Oops. That was the thirty-years war. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the point of the exercise was to determine who would have the power to decide the fate of the reformation in central Europe.

It seems that many of the monarchs of the day considered keeping their subjects from going to hell as part of their responsibility, and were therefore morally required to intervene in various ways to get their subjects to make the correct choices. (In the king/prince/archduke/whatever's opinion.)

Within a generation of the baptism of Constantine, the Roman empire was largely Christian, with the administrative structure of the church absorbed into the Roman state. Only a few generations later a Christian mob felt entitled to murder the last of the notable pagan philosophers, Hypatia of Alexandria. (Unfortunately her works have been lost so we only have hearsay evidence to their quality.)

To the founding fathers of the US, democracy was the rule of the mob. While the US Constitution was written well before the French revolution, they envisioned democracy as being very like the reign of terror which subsequently happened, and therefore erected elaborate precautions to prevent the government from becoming "the tyrany of the people," precautions which held up pretty well for decades.

"Democracy is snake oil. Freedom is the real deal."

Zeppflyer on July 06, 2007, 09:15:41 pm
"Democracy is snake oil. Freedom is the real deal."

Great quote.  You, or someone else?  I'd like to look them up.  It bugs me to no end when people praise our 'democracy'.

Religion, like democracy, communism, environmentalism, or any other cause in which people believe strongly can, has, and still is used by governments and mob leaders to whip people into a frenzy and do terrible things.

But, fortunately for those of us who must side with militant Muslims on the existence of God, this is ultimately irrelevant to the ultimate control of the universe.

wdg3rd on July 07, 2007, 11:24:16 am
Any god is welcome to try to control the universe as long as it keeps its filthy appendages away from me and mine.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Rocketman on July 07, 2007, 12:14:36 pm
I remember reading somewhere that prior to around the first decade of the 20th century that United States military manuals scorned in the strongest sense of the term "Democracy" for the very reasons that you outlined.  They knew that this country would then only last as long as the average citizen figured out that they could elect corrrupt self serving politicians that would then tax the general population in order to give loot to the prilvieged few.  Read a speech sometime that Tennessee Congressman Davy Crockett gave before the the United States congress concerning given a pension to a bunch of widows and orphans.  Except for Ron Paul no one nowadays even approaches his patriotism.  :'(

jrl on July 08, 2007, 12:07:52 am
Zeppflyer, I'm not sure if "Democracy is snake oil. Freedom is the real deal." is original to me, or if I swiped it from someone else or modified from someone else's statement.

I've been using it for a few years.

It feels like something Heinlein could have said, but I can't find it on my list of quotes.

A Google search on "democracy is snake oil" returns no results, but a search on +democracy +"snake oil" returns 174,000 results.

If it is original to me, I hereby donate the line, "Democracy is snake oil. Freedom is the real deal." to the public domain. Feel free to use it in anyway that might do some good.

Rocketman on July 08, 2007, 12:49:59 am
If anyone is interested you can read all about Congressman Crockett's speech at http://www.trimonline.org/congress/articles/crockett.htm
When I read it it just reminds me how far Amerika has sunk.   :'(