JanessaVR on March 13, 2020, 04:27:04 pm
You are confusing social welfare programs with Socialism - Bernie Sanders keeps making this mistake and Denmark would really like him to stop calling them a Socialist country.

The true hallmark of a Socialist country is direct state ownership of critical industries.  People who say they want Socialism frequently don't understand what they're asking for, or what that would entail - but they do really like to hear those promises of "free" stuff being showered on them.  But as Margaret Thatcher so famously noted, the problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money to spend.

And if you really do love Socialism, what the heck are you doing here, of all places, where Libertarianism is promoted rather heavily?  Bubbleopolis exists as an argument against Socialists, who have consistently been portrayed as the villains in multiple comics on this site.
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

Skull the Troll on March 16, 2020, 09:53:15 am
I can read this and even admire the system as it is portrayed. That said, Bubbleopolis isn't any more free of laws (Alex just referred to privacy laws for example) than Star Trek is free of money. I like both universes however. You can have Democratic Socialism without having direct state ownership of industry though. A decent example is how you get your electricity or Gas (assuming you are hooked to the grid) There is one network of transmission lines usually owned by one of the local power producer/suppliers. However it is regulated to control costs and to allow for what needs to be, by basic physics, a monopoly. My local power company can't just decide to raise rates. It has to go by the regulating agency in my state to make sure that rate hike is fair. We can have financial assistance to the elderly who are having trouble heating their homes.

JanessaVR on March 16, 2020, 12:08:11 pm
Again, that's not Socialism.  The existence of some regulatory rules not represent the implementation of Socialism (and the subsequent destruction of the economy, mass starvation, etc.).

And the "Democratic Socialists" are a smokescreen - they clearly want the real thing, even if some of them don't like admitting it in public.

Always remember - "What did Socialists use before candles?  Electricity."
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

Skull the Troll on March 19, 2020, 12:57:35 pm
Again, that's not Socialism.  The existence of some regulatory rules not represent the implementation of Socialism (and the subsequent destruction of the economy, mass starvation, etc.).

And the "Democratic Socialists" are a smokescreen - they clearly want the real thing, even if some of them don't like admitting it in public.

Always remember - "What did Socialists use before candles?  Electricity."

Naw, there are a dozen democratic socialist governments in Europe that haven't gone anywhere near a true socialist state.  That's the flaw in your argument you act like there aren't good examples of where it works all over the place. Yes there's some pretty bad examples too, but that's also true of capitalism and libratarianism.

JanessaVR on March 20, 2020, 12:15:54 am
There's no such thing as "democratic socialism."  If there's still a free market, it's a Capitalist country, even if it has social welfare programs and market regulation.  Again, you keep making the Bernie Sanders mistake.  If a country is truly Socialist, you'll know.  For the best modern example, see Venezuela, where Socialism was faithfully implemented.  Capitalism is the natural state of humanity - it takes authoritarian government control to suppress that into a command economy (and thus destroy the country).

Also, I wonder why you read Quantum Vibe, if you love big government so much.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 12:19:25 am by JanessaVR »
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

Skull the Troll on March 20, 2020, 05:17:53 pm
There's no such thing as "democratic socialism."  If there's still a free market, it's a Capitalist country, even if it has social welfare programs and market regulation.  Again, you keep making the Bernie Sanders mistake.  If a country is truly Socialist, you'll know.  For the best modern example, see Venezuela, where Socialism was faithfully implemented.  Capitalism is the natural state of humanity - it takes authoritarian government control to suppress that into a command economy (and thus destroy the country).

Also, I wonder why you read Quantum Vibe, if you love big government so much.

I like fantasy. :) Besides Democratic Socialism is just as real as libratarianism. Except that in the case of DS there are countries like Sweden, Great Britan, Norway excetera that are doing it. A democratic socialist state is also capitalist.

JanessaVR on March 20, 2020, 05:32:42 pm
Again, no.  True, actual Socialism can only sustained by authoritarian government force.  You can vote your way into Socialism (or Communism, which is what all Socialists actually want), but you have to shoot your way out.

At this point, I think we've hit full Princess Bride territory.  "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

Skull the Troll on March 21, 2020, 07:58:47 am
Again, no.  True, actual Socialism can only sustained by authoritarian government force.  You can vote your way into Socialism (or Communism, which is what all Socialists actually want), but you have to shoot your way out.

At this point, I think we've hit full Princess Bride territory.  "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Youre right on the definition. I'll stop now. That said I can tell you youre wrong on all DS supporters wanting actual socialism. I'm DS and I very much don't. I'd like public colleges to be cost free (but not eliminate private ones) and I'd like a government option for heathcare and a requirement that everyone carries health insurance just like you must carry car insurance. I still like buying things on Amazon, and going to Texas Roadhouse for dinner, and shopping for a new car though, thank you.

Sean Roach on April 05, 2020, 04:14:11 pm
Public school used to stop at the eighth grade, it's why high school is sometimes called "secondary" school, while grade school is quite frequently referred to as "primary" school.

Once upon a time, those private "colleges" were admitting people to their programs after eight years of "primary" school. They WERE the "secondary" school.
Would you say that the quality of public education had declined in the last century? Where once, only those who were actively interested in attending, or at least their parents were actively interested in their attending, now either everyone is forced to take it, or prove their alternative meets some equal or greater standard, and where this isn't so, no one is informing parents and prospective students of the reality; that they can reject public school, or any schooling at all.  Where once, at least in theory, only those who were inclined to learn, and capable of it, (or at least well-heeled enough to offset the difficulty of attempting to teach them, despite themselves), graced the halls of what stood in for "high school", now the teachers must ensure that those who have no real interest or motivation, and those who are actively opposed to being there, do not fail to learn. (Also, the teachers are required, in many cases, to ensure those who have serious limitations on their ability to learn are not left behind, but budgeting already acknowledges this, and treats those students as more than a single student to off-set the additional work necessary to see them succeed despite adversity.)

Do you want a two year degree to be about the equivalent of a high school diploma today? Do you want a four year degree to be diluted as well?

Because once it becomes free, the recent gripe about "underwater basketweaving" degrees will become more than an exaggeration of a flawed response to the recent situation; where once literally having a degree, any degree, was purportedly the key to many jobs, and supposedly no one really cared what the degree was in.

And once it becomes free, it's a short step to making it socially, or legally, mandatory, much as it happened with High School. Before that, housing and feeding them will likely become free, and those with no real interest in learning, but a strong interest in someone else paying their bills for two to four more years while they "find themselves", will draw upon the time of the teachers, and tax the efforts of those who are interested to learn efficiently.

UncleRice on April 08, 2020, 02:22:20 pm
You can vote your way into Socialism, but you have to shoot your way out.
Stupid criminals put on a mask and rob people with a gun.
Smart criminals put on a suit, call themselves politicians, and rob people with writ of law.

Skull the Troll on April 09, 2020, 01:56:07 pm
Public school used to stop at the eighth grade, it's why high school is sometimes called "secondary" school, while grade school is quite frequently referred to as "primary" school.

Once upon a time, those private "colleges" were admitting people to their programs after eight years of "primary" school. They WERE the "secondary" school.
Would you say that the quality of public education had declined in the last century? Where once, only those who were actively interested in attending, or at least their parents were actively interested in their attending, now either everyone is forced to take it, or prove their alternative meets some equal or greater standard, and where this isn't so, no one is informing parents and prospective students of the reality; that they can reject public school, or any schooling at all.  Where once, at least in theory, only those who were inclined to learn, and capable of it, (or at least well-heeled enough to offset the difficulty of attempting to teach them, despite themselves), graced the halls of what stood in for "high school", now the teachers must ensure that those who have no real interest or motivation, and those who are actively opposed to being there, do not fail to learn. (Also, the teachers are required, in many cases, to ensure those who have serious limitations on their ability to learn are not left behind, but budgeting already acknowledges this, and treats those students as more than a single student to off-set the additional work necessary to see them succeed despite adversity.)

Do you want a two year degree to be about the equivalent of a high school diploma today? Do you want a four year degree to be diluted as well?

Because once it becomes free, the recent gripe about "underwater basketweaving" degrees will become more than an exaggeration of a flawed response to the recent situation; where once literally having a degree, any degree, was purportedly the key to many jobs, and supposedly no one really cared what the degree was in.

And once it becomes free, it's a short step to making it socially, or legally, mandatory, much as it happened with High School. Before that, housing and feeding them will likely become free, and those with no real interest in learning, but a strong interest in someone else paying their bills for two to four more years while they "find themselves", will draw upon the time of the teachers, and tax the efforts of those who are interested to learn efficiently.

Yeah look at all those schools in Germany. They suck right? Oh wait, their graduates exceed ours in every measurable way. I agree our schools should be better, but better and free to the user aren't necessarily exclusive. Also relevant to your argument - career choice in Germany starts in gymnausium. (their version of secondary school) Not everyone needs to go to college and to make it mandatory would take raising the age of adulthood to 22. Unlikely. 


 

anything