lurkergao on November 22, 2019, 06:10:03 pm
Oh boy, I really want to see what form this militia takes.. First thing that pops into my head is a joke a friend of mine had in college about a mythical loyal moral private military company. Or are we going more of a bunch of gun enthusiasts banding together to spend weekends blowing things up. Can't wait!

DrakBibliophile on November 22, 2019, 08:08:44 pm
IIRC Some militias were as well trained as the professional armies of their times.  Others of course, weren't that well trained.

I suspect that many of the militias of Bubbleopolis are much better than a "bunch of gun enthusiasts banding together to spend weekends blowing things up".

This is just a guess, but I suspect that the "Powers-That-Be" in Bubbleopolis will encourage (with money) the more "professional" of the militias to be more professional.

Oh boy, I really want to see what form this militia takes.. First thing that pops into my head is a joke a friend of mine had in college about a mythical loyal moral private military company. Or are we going more of a bunch of gun enthusiasts banding together to spend weekends blowing things up. Can't wait!
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
*

DrakBibliophile on November 22, 2019, 08:42:06 pm
Just another thought, those forces that Alyss called up to rescue Diana may have included militia forces that Alyss had funded.

IE Alyss didn't have those forces permanently on her payroll but were "part-time soldiers" that she had provided funding to improve their skills (as well as some of the weaponry).

Those "part-time soldiers" trained to defend Bubbleopolis but because of their relationship with Alyss were willing to help her out.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
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Sean Roach on November 22, 2019, 11:52:46 pm
...but because of their relationship with Alyss were willing to help her out.

Yeah. Familial.

lurkergao on November 25, 2019, 04:15:20 am
That's sorta worse. I assumed that the forces that Alyss called up were a Private military company. completely unrelated to any local military. if they were that means they were completely willing to take payment for an illegal merc contract to invade another property. So I was thinking they would probably be foreign mercenaries so they couldn't be sued for assets that weren't present in bubbletown. However you bring up an alternate idea. they are all a standing local army run by roaz and with many members with familial relations to her. Or basically one small step away from the sicilian mob. that small step is whether they collect fees for protecting other people's property when they are not doing missions for her. That's puts a different view of it. maybe the pillars of bubbleopolis are the families that have standing armies.

DrakBibliophile on November 25, 2019, 08:30:31 am
I don't think Alyss's forces were a true standing army mainly for the dangers you mentioned and for the fact that Alyss had a contract with an "assurance company".

No, I believe that they were mainly an organized group of "part-time soldiers".  IE Men & Women who had regular full-time jobs that were also trained & organized to be a military force when needed (a militia).

Alyss may have sponsered the militia (along with possible others) so they had both good training & good military gear.

That's sorta worse. I assumed that the forces that Alyss called up were a Private military company. completely unrelated to any local military. if they were that means they were completely willing to take payment for an illegal merc contract to invade another property. So I was thinking they would probably be foreign mercenaries so they couldn't be sued for assets that weren't present in bubbletown. However you bring up an alternate idea. they are all a standing local army run by roaz and with many members with familial relations to her. Or basically one small step away from the sicilian mob. that small step is whether they collect fees for protecting other people's property when they are not doing missions for her. That's puts a different view of it. maybe the pillars of bubbleopolis are the families that have standing armies.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
*

DrakBibliophile on November 25, 2019, 10:59:35 am
Historically, there have been two problems with Militia.

First, there's the problem of training & discipline. Do they know what they are doing and do they have the discipline to "do the job"?

Second, when the Militia is called up, then whatever jobs they did in the community is not being done or at least is being done by "less qualified individuals".  This means that a long war has a greater impact on the community/nation than it would if the war was fought by a standing army.

The second can be seen as a feature when one dislikes the idea of a nation going out to conquer other nations, but is a problem when a nation with only militia forces is defending itself from another nation that has a standing army.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
*

Sean Roach on November 25, 2019, 02:11:42 pm
Historically, there have been two problems with Militia.

First, there's the problem of training & discipline. Do they know what they are doing and do they have the discipline to "do the job"?

Second, when the Militia is called up, then whatever jobs they did in the community is not being done or at least is being done by "less qualified individuals".  This means that a long war has a greater impact on the community/nation than it would if the war was fought by a standing army.

The second can be seen as a feature when one dislikes the idea of a nation going out to conquer other nations, but is a problem when a nation with only militia forces is defending itself from another nation that has a standing army.

The problem with that argument is it assumes those soldiers come out of thin air and eat nothing. It doesn't matter if the soldiers are part-time or full-time; those soldiers are workers who are taken out of the civilian economy. Now, you can say that a community that has a standing army is one that is accustomed to the extra load, and that fielding that army therefore produces much less of a system shock to their economy than calling up part-timers, and leaving tasks normally done now unfilled.

DrakBibliophile on November 25, 2019, 06:44:17 pm
I hear you but I still think there's a difference between a nation with a Standing Army (not currently in civilian jobs) and a nation that uses only Militia forces who when needed have to be pulled from civilian jobs.

Historically, there have been two problems with Militia.

First, there's the problem of training & discipline. Do they know what they are doing and do they have the discipline to "do the job"?

Second, when the Militia is called up, then whatever jobs they did in the community is not being done or at least is being done by "less qualified individuals".  This means that a long war has a greater impact on the community/nation than it would if the war was fought by a standing army.

The second can be seen as a feature when one dislikes the idea of a nation going out to conquer other nations, but is a problem when a nation with only militia forces is defending itself from another nation that has a standing army.

The problem with that argument is it assumes those soldiers come out of thin air and eat nothing. It doesn't matter if the soldiers are part-time or full-time; those soldiers are workers who are taken out of the civilian economy. Now, you can say that a community that has a standing army is one that is accustomed to the extra load, and that fielding that army therefore produces much less of a system shock to their economy than calling up part-timers, and leaving tasks normally done now unfilled.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
*

lurkergao on November 27, 2019, 04:21:44 am
If Alyss did use the militia to attack another rich family there is a huge problem with that. Namely that militia is willing to be paid to use military force on its own citizens if a rich person pays them to, as opposed to whatever command structure the militia has saying that decastries is a threat. Decastrie could have paid the militia to stage a coup d'état then. The assurance agencies are police not soldiers. Just because Alyss contracts with an assurance agency doesnt mean she she doesnt want a private army. The assurance agency goes after people that attack you and gather evidence for arbitration. Actually defending yourself from the attack is left up to your own devices. If Alyss sends out her soldiers to take back property stolen from her without an assurance agency presumeably she gets sued. If they get caught that is. Even if you prefered to go the illegal route you would want one to not seem like somebody up to no good.

Skull the Troll on November 27, 2019, 08:34:51 am
If Alyss did use the militia to attack another rich family there is a huge problem with that. Namely that militia is willing to be paid to use military force on its own citizens if a rich person pays them to, as opposed to whatever command structure the militia has saying that decastries is a threat. Decastrie could have paid the militia to stage a coup d'état then. The assurance agencies are police not soldiers. Just because Alyss contracts with an assurance agency doesnt mean she she doesnt want a private army. The assurance agency goes after people that attack you and gather evidence for arbitration. Actually defending yourself from the attack is left up to your own devices. If Alyss sends out her soldiers to take back property stolen from her without an assurance agency presumeably she gets sued. If they get caught that is. Even if you prefered to go the illegal route you would want one to not seem like somebody up to no good.

No matter what kind of governmental system you live in the concept that the rich and powerful can impose their will is always a problem. Just look at Alyss. If she was an evil person she could rule not only Bubbleopolis but probably the entire galaxy. After all, she could shut down all interstellar travel and trade at a moments notice. She has the wealth to overwhelm someone who was planning on taking over Bubbleopolis. (...and still is from my interpretation of the title)

Scott on December 02, 2019, 12:01:34 pm
If Alyss did use the militia to attack another rich family there is a huge problem with that. Namely that militia is willing to be paid to use military force on its own citizens if a rich person pays them to, as opposed to whatever command structure the militia has saying that decastries is a threat. Decastrie could have paid the militia to stage a coup d'état then. The assurance agencies are police not soldiers. Just because Alyss contracts with an assurance agency doesnt mean she she doesnt want a private army. The assurance agency goes after people that attack you and gather evidence for arbitration. Actually defending yourself from the attack is left up to your own devices. If Alyss sends out her soldiers to take back property stolen from her without an assurance agency presumeably she gets sued. If they get caught that is. Even if you prefered to go the illegal route you would want one to not seem like somebody up to no good.

No matter what kind of governmental system you live in the concept that the rich and powerful can impose their will is always a problem. Just look at Alyss. If she was an evil person she could rule not only Bubbleopolis but probably the entire galaxy. After all, she could shut down all interstellar travel and trade at a moments notice. She has the wealth to overwhelm someone who was planning on taking over Bubbleopolis. (...and still is from my interpretation of the title)

The forces that joined with Alyss in the attack on the deCastries building were the folks from Pandemonium that Gyeon-Hoon organized for the purpose of aiding Diana in extremis. I'm sorry this wasn't made more clear.

Sean Roach on December 03, 2019, 11:19:05 am
I hear you but I still think there's a difference between a nation with a Standing Army (not currently in civilian jobs) and a nation that uses only Militia forces who when needed have to be pulled from civilian jobs.

Historically, there have been two problems with Militia.

First, there's the problem of training & discipline. Do they know what they are doing and do they have the discipline to "do the job"?

Second, when the Militia is called up, then whatever jobs they did in the community is not being done or at least is being done by "less qualified individuals".  This means that a long war has a greater impact on the community/nation than it would if the war was fought by a standing army.

The second can be seen as a feature when one dislikes the idea of a nation going out to conquer other nations, but is a problem when a nation with only militia forces is defending itself from another nation that has a standing army.

The problem with that argument is it assumes those soldiers come out of thin air and eat nothing. It doesn't matter if the soldiers are part-time or full-time; those soldiers are workers who are taken out of the civilian economy. Now, you can say that a community that has a standing army is one that is accustomed to the extra load, and that fielding that army therefore produces much less of a system shock to their economy than calling up part-timers, and leaving tasks normally done now unfilled.

I should have replied to you a week ago.

There is a difference.

The best analogy I can compare a standing military to is insurance. You pay into insurance monthly, and hope you never need it. That is money that you aren't using to buy food, transportation, shelter, or toys. Because you are a wise individual, you accept that the potential future need, that would be blunted by insurance, is worth not having a few toys, or the latest and greatest of everything else.

A society which maintains a (large) standing military is one that has accepted that they can't spend all of their labor on the collective, and generally indirect, obvious good of the populace, but must instead spend some of it on preparedness.

Like with insurance, a society which lacks a military might look fine on the outside, and even from the inside, provided peace or other disaster doesn't expose their failure to prepare for it. This might mean better schools, better roads, better hospitals, or, in a freer society with fewer government-managed programs, richer citizens who can afford to buy better cars, better houses, etc.

Going into a disaster without an already existing, already paid for military, one that you've become accustomed to supporting in peacetime in wages, equipment, training efforts, upgrades, and replacement, is like going into the hospital without insurance. Suddenly, you can't afford all the things, the "necessities", which you've become accustomed to. You find yourself pawning that TV, your second car, all your new hires between the ages of 18 and 35, all for far less than you initially paid for them, and suddenly you can't afford your accustomed new wardrobe, or to eat meat except once a week. Hospitals are EXPENSIVE, more so if you don't have insurance to help carry the expense. War is also expensive, more so if you don't have anyone ready trained and equipped to fight in it. Both are also incredibly disruptive.

A small army is like an emergency-only insurance policy with a large deductible. A large standing army is like a comprehensive insurance policy with a small deductible.

Apollo-Soyuz on December 03, 2019, 11:33:33 pm
It looked like Pandemonium Superheros, Sergio Cooper's new assurance agency, and anyone else Alyss could franticly sign up for the assault forces. Do they have soldiers of fortune in Oz?


The forces that joined with Alyss in the attack on the deCastries building were the folks from Pandemonium that Gyeon-Hoon organized for the purpose of aiding Diana in extremis. I'm sorry this wasn't made more clear.

Scott on December 04, 2019, 09:35:06 am
I hear you but I still think there's a difference between a nation with a Standing Army (not currently in civilian jobs) and a nation that uses only Militia forces who when needed have to be pulled from civilian jobs.

Historically, there have been two problems with Militia.

First, there's the problem of training & discipline. Do they know what they are doing and do they have the discipline to "do the job"?

Second, when the Militia is called up, then whatever jobs they did in the community is not being done or at least is being done by "less qualified individuals".  This means that a long war has a greater impact on the community/nation than it would if the war was fought by a standing army.

The second can be seen as a feature when one dislikes the idea of a nation going out to conquer other nations, but is a problem when a nation with only militia forces is defending itself from another nation that has a standing army.

The problem with that argument is it assumes those soldiers come out of thin air and eat nothing. It doesn't matter if the soldiers are part-time or full-time; those soldiers are workers who are taken out of the civilian economy. Now, you can say that a community that has a standing army is one that is accustomed to the extra load, and that fielding that army therefore produces much less of a system shock to their economy than calling up part-timers, and leaving tasks normally done now unfilled.

I should have replied to you a week ago.

There is a difference.

The best analogy I can compare a standing military to is insurance. You pay into insurance monthly, and hope you never need it. That is money that you aren't using to buy food, transportation, shelter, or toys. Because you are a wise individual, you accept that the potential future need, that would be blunted by insurance, is worth not having a few toys, or the latest and greatest of everything else.

A society which maintains a (large) standing military is one that has accepted that they can't spend all of their labor on the collective, and generally indirect, obvious good of the populace, but must instead spend some of it on preparedness.

Like with insurance, a society which lacks a military might look fine on the outside, and even from the inside, provided peace or other disaster doesn't expose their failure to prepare for it. This might mean better schools, better roads, better hospitals, or, in a freer society with fewer government-managed programs, richer citizens who can afford to buy better cars, better houses, etc.

Going into a disaster without an already existing, already paid for military, one that you've become accustomed to supporting in peacetime in wages, equipment, training efforts, upgrades, and replacement, is like going into the hospital without insurance. Suddenly, you can't afford all the things, the "necessities", which you've become accustomed to. You find yourself pawning that TV, your second car, all your new hires between the ages of 18 and 35, all for far less than you initially paid for them, and suddenly you can't afford your accustomed new wardrobe, or to eat meat except once a week. Hospitals are EXPENSIVE, more so if you don't have insurance to help carry the expense. War is also expensive, more so if you don't have anyone ready trained and equipped to fight in it. Both are also incredibly disruptive.

A small army is like an emergency-only insurance policy with a large deductible. A large standing army is like a comprehensive insurance policy with a small deductible.

A large standing army is like having a really super-expensive toy that you can't wait to use, to justify all the money you've spent on it. So, you go about terrorizing your weaker neighbors.