Skull the Troll on September 30, 2019, 08:13:11 am
Ok, so Rene is still part of RPLD. So what? Everyone is acting like its shocking and terrible. Does Bubbleopolis not have freedom of assembly?

DrakBibliophile on September 30, 2019, 10:43:11 am
1)  Of course, they have "freedom of association/assembly".  That's why RPLD is allowed to exist.

2) However, RPLD is likely seen as "advocating something we dislike".  So being a member is something people might look down upon.

3) Being an ex-member would be seen as "everybody does stupid things but he was smart enough to get out".

4) Rene's sin is that he lied about quiting RPLD.  So it is a matter of somebody lying about leaving a not-that-good organization.  The implication was that he was plotting something bad (or part of such a plot) and publicly left RPLD to make himself look "innocent".


Ok, so Rene is still part of RPLD. So what? Everyone is acting like its shocking and terrible. Does Bubbleopolis not have freedom of assembly?
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
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lurkergao on September 30, 2019, 05:22:19 pm
It's bad optics basically. The rpld is advocating changing the government and has motive and the means for two kidnapping and torture cases in the city. Diana and others were found being held prisoner in rpld's space gitmo and diana won the case of punitive damages against them for it. The only defense rpld has is that alyss invaded them illegally and they are claiming they did it because alyss is worse and they had to fight fire with fire. That doesnt stack up well if they have people secretly working for the police.

I'm wondering why he admitted to being a member. Putting aside his ideological beliefs i assume his assets are miniscule compared to rpld and this society has no death penalty. Deny everything. Drag this out and even if they find you lied. Skip town and get reinbursed by rpld. They should already have worked this process out when he joined the police force. Maybe he is afraid of getting Hayamied and winding up dead in a prison cell.

DrakBibliophile on September 30, 2019, 06:43:43 pm
Two thoughts.

1) The court may have some means of knowing if witnesses are telling the truth.  Thus the court would know if the witness is lying.

2) He may have been having doubts about the wisdom of the plan even before Alyss invaded and suspects that Alyss' team already has enough evidence to win.  (I'm assuming here that he isn't aware of what evidence Alyss' team has submitted to the court).  Basically, he may be about to "throw himself on the mercy of the court" by honestly answering all questions in hope that he'll get off easy.

It's bad optics basically. The rpld is advocating changing the government and has motive and the means for two kidnapping and torture cases in the city. Diana and others were found being held prisoner in rpld's space gitmo and diana won the case of punitive damages against them for it. The only defense rpld has is that alyss invaded them illegally and they are claiming they did it because alyss is worse and they had to fight fire with fire. That doesnt stack up well if they have people secretly working for the police.

I'm wondering why he admitted to being a member. Putting aside his ideological beliefs i assume his assets are miniscule compared to rpld and this society has no death penalty. Deny everything. Drag this out and even if they find you lied. Skip town and get reinbursed by rpld. They should already have worked this process out when he joined the police force. Maybe he is afraid of getting Hayamied and winding up dead in a prison cell.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
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Skull the Troll on October 01, 2019, 09:30:14 am
If its getting at that he lied about being a member then that's one thing. Having the court hold him accountable for membership is quite another. In our courts they are not allowed to judge people by "membership" only by actions. That's why you're not allowed to bring up that a person is part of the NRA if they are being charged with a gun crime, or that you are part of the Sierra Club if you're being charged for blocking a logging operation.

DrakBibliophile on October 01, 2019, 10:57:49 am
Well, I think the main thing is that he's lying.

However, this group (while allowed) is from the characters point of view is closer to the Communist Party (as viewed by small government types).

This group is calling for a larger government than most people in this society want.

If its getting at that he lied about being a member then that's one thing. Having the court hold him accountable for membership is quite another. In our courts they are not allowed to judge people by "membership" only by actions. That's why you're not allowed to bring up that a person is part of the NRA if they are being charged with a gun crime, or that you are part of the Sierra Club if you're being charged for blocking a logging operation.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
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MirrorField on October 02, 2019, 03:29:58 am
I'm likewise wondering why the old concept of "perjury" has been sidelined. Is it that both sides have ready documentation, option for enforcing perfect lie detector or what?

ObScifi: Here is one of the better samples of "ugly side" of big-L libertarian behaviour I've come across, from Anders Sandberg's old scifi-RPG campaign. Total "homo economicus". Discussion.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 12:11:16 pm by MirrorField »

UncleRice on October 02, 2019, 05:28:16 am
Ultimately you acquire a certain amount of shared guilt from any group you associate with and receive a relevant reputation modifier because of it. That's why you always need to be careful who you connect yourself to.
Stupid criminals put on a mask and rob people with a gun.
Smart criminals put on a suit, call themselves politicians, and rob people with writ of law.

DrakBibliophile on October 02, 2019, 11:26:40 am
Nod, this is just part of being human and in a human society.

(Human is widely defined here to include all beings in the Quantum-universe.)

Even the arti-folks were designed IMO on the human framework.

Ultimately you acquire a certain amount of shared guilt from any group you associate with and receive a relevant reputation modifier because of it. That's why you always need to be careful who you connect yourself to.
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Drak Bibliophile (The Book Loving Dragon)
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Sometimes the Dragon Wins!!
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Skull the Troll on October 02, 2019, 12:06:29 pm
Of course, you definitely get defined by your associations in society. Court should be another matter. I think most people in this forum might be upset to have the fact they belong to the NRA as "proof" they were the one that "must have" committed an armed robbery in court. (or use my other example from above if you prefer) Courts should be focusing only on evidence and actual actions. The fact that he is a member of RPLD does not mean that he is the one that tried to destabilize Bubbleopolis with new tech. Its circumstantial evidence at best.

Sean Roach on October 02, 2019, 12:57:39 pm
Of course, you definitely get defined by your associations in society. Court should be another matter. I think most people in this forum might be upset to have the fact they belong to the NRA as "proof" they were the one that "must have" committed an armed robbery in court. (or use my other example from above if you prefer) Courts should be focusing only on evidence and actual actions. The fact that he is a member of RPLD does not mean that he is the one that tried to destabilize Bubbleopolis with new tech. Its circumstantial evidence at best.

Let's change the analogy a bit. NRA is pretty narrow in that it advocates for. And what it advocates for doesn't really play well into this type of analogy. Being a member of the NRA doesn't really help one rob a store, and being able to rob a store doesn't really do anything for the NRA (unless you die to the shopkeepers shotgun, but that's another argument).

Let's instead say that it was found that several members of the local police were members, past or present, secretly or openly, of the KKK.
Let's then go and assume that, over time, it was found that members of the KKK had managed to fill out a third of the police force. The Chief was KKK, everyone in hiring, (except that one old battleaxe, and they couldn't get rid of her, even though they tried) is a member of the KKK. Nearly all the people who AREN'T KKK are sidelined; given tasks that keep them out of the way, and impotent to interfere, or possibly even observe.

That the KKK had a very strong objective, one that most people would reject, and that the police are in a position to further the KKK's goals, is very relevant.

lurkergao on October 02, 2019, 01:57:34 pm
I agree with this analogy being better. Though rpld probably didnt seem like the KKK until it was discovered they had been kidnapping and imprisoning people for political reasons. I dont think they were actively calling for violence in their meetings. Might be closer to an Epstein analogy. People thought they were just a rich bunch of rich wankers... until suddenly they realized they were monsters.

Skull the Troll on October 02, 2019, 03:11:44 pm
Of course, you definitely get defined by your associations in society. Court should be another matter. I think most people in this forum might be upset to have the fact they belong to the NRA as "proof" they were the one that "must have" committed an armed robbery in court. (or use my other example from above if you prefer) Courts should be focusing only on evidence and actual actions. The fact that he is a member of RPLD does not mean that he is the one that tried to destabilize Bubbleopolis with new tech. Its circumstantial evidence at best.

Let's change the analogy a bit. NRA is pretty narrow in that it advocates for. And what it advocates for doesn't really play well into this type of analogy. Being a member of the NRA doesn't really help one rob a store, and being able to rob a store doesn't really do anything for the NRA (unless you die to the shopkeepers shotgun, but that's another argument).

Let's instead say that it was found that several members of the local police were members, past or present, secretly or openly, of the KKK.
Let's then go and assume that, over time, it was found that members of the KKK had managed to fill out a third of the police force. The Chief was KKK, everyone in hiring, (except that one old battleaxe, and they couldn't get rid of her, even though they tried) is a member of the KKK. Nearly all the people who AREN'T KKK are sidelined; given tasks that keep them out of the way, and impotent to interfere, or possibly even observe.

That the KKK had a very strong objective, one that most people would reject, and that the police are in a position to further the KKK's goals, is very relevant.

I do like your analogy better, but heres the thing. Lets say this KKK group has a guy named Bob. Bob is being charged with spray-painting racist slurs on the side of a church. If the only evidence was that he was a member of the KKK the case would get tossed. The prosecutor would need to show evidence that he had paint on his hand, or had purchased the empty can of spray paint found on the church lawn etc...

Apollo-Soyuz on October 04, 2019, 02:13:29 pm

4) Rene's sin is that he lied about quiting RPLD.  So it is a matter of somebody lying about leaving a not-that-good organization.  The implication was that he was plotting something bad (or part of such a plot) and publicly left RPLD to make himself look "innocent".


He also lied about when he first saw Diana. See the last panel of (page=1883) then (1780) and finally at Pé do Clube (1741)

UncleRice on October 04, 2019, 11:17:28 pm
There are probably 4 different degrees of guilt by association with varying degrees of liability. I'll use Al Qaeda, a violent religious group known to kill unbelievers as an example.

Degree 1: Regional association. As a matter of odds, a random person from the Middle East is more likely to be a member of Al Qaeda that a random person From North America. It's a matter of statistics. Not useful in court, but some nations' security consider it only smart to profile people based on the region they are from and they get away with it, because the odds work. It sucks for the Chaldean Catholics and the Coptics, but playing the odds works in some situations.

Degree 2: Being part of the same religious super group as the bad actors. There just aren't many Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Christians, Animists, or Jews in Al Qaeda. Again, it's not useful in the courtroom to convict someone, but people in security that have to play the odds really want to know this sort of info, because the odds work in their favor when they can use this sort of information. It sucks for the Muslims who are peaceful, but again, playing the odds works in some situations.

Degree 3: Association of Belief. Person X has never been a part of Al Qaeda and has never sent support to Al Qaeda, but confesses to believe most or all of the same things as Al Qaeda. Can he be justly convicted for a crime perpetrated by Al Qaeda? No, but no one who wants to live is going to discount his Association of Belief because the odds are really bad.

Degree 4: Association of Membership. Person Z is a card carrying member of Al Qaeda, but is too broke to have ever donated any money and too disabled to have participated in any attacks, but he's always there at the meetings and rallies cheering them on. Person Z may have not personally engaged in a violent act, but most, if not all, justice systems of the world will consider him guilty for very good reasons.

In the case of RPLD, they may not be making terror attacks, but like most government efforts, innocent victims are just a thing they create. As such, the arbiters need to decide if such membership can qualify as an evidence multiplier, because it is in the realm of Degree 3&4 of guilt by association. To some extent, they have to factor in the odds, because their job is to serve a particular role in protecting the community.
Stupid criminals put on a mask and rob people with a gun.
Smart criminals put on a suit, call themselves politicians, and rob people with writ of law.

 

anything