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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 12:56:41 pm

Title: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 12:56:41 pm
How to Simulate Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft
Tired of getting bogged down in all the hypothetical debate about whether an anarcho-capitalist nonstate would be possible, feasible, or desirable?  Want to perform a fun practical experiment instead?  All you need is a copy of Minecraft, an internet connection, and confidence that a truly free society working together can enjoy more benefits with fewer drawbacks than a state.

Step 1: Set up a Minecraft server!
Set up a minecraft server using these instructions:  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Setting_up_a_server  If you want that extra Sci-Fi feel, consider using the Technic Pack mod (AKA tekkit,) which adds electricity, ore processing, and lasers!  http://www.technicpack.net/technic6/  (Refer to the vanilla minecraft installation instructions and don't be afraid to search the tekkit forum if you encounter issues.)  Now you need to tell each and every player your server's IP address.  If you have a static IP address, or are paying for a professionally hosted server, this is easy.  If you're using your home internet connection, on the other hand, and if your ISP assigns you a dynamic IP, you may need to use a program like Hamachi to set up an alternative IP address.  When configuring your server.properties file, remember to make it SMP, and whatever you do, don't use a whitelist!

Step 1b: That's the Anarchy, now for the Capitalism!
If you're using Tekkit, you could treat EMC or whatever as a currency, but if you're running vanilla, you'd want to install some sort of currency plugin.  I recommend iconomy + MobBounty, so players have a rudimentary initial source of income, and some sort of shop plugin so they have a way to spend it.  An automatic shop command such as CommandShops is good if you want to track the effects of inflation over time, while PhysicalShop allows each player to know the risks and potential rewards of operating their own brick-and-mortar business, at the cost of being less efficient and convenient for shoppers.

In a pinch, players usually start to use diamonds or gold as a barter currency when no other currency is availible, but tekkit's late game tech can screw with this pretty hard.  There will also be a lot of haggling cluttering up the general chat channel, and occasional disputes when a deal goes south or someone "accidentally" picks up an item intended for another player.

Step 2: No rulers!  Only rules!
If you like, build a nice spawn area, perhaps with a little town, and signs posting some reasonable rules.  (No PVP in town, no breaking another player's house without permission, no stealing, no building structures that cause lag, no crashing the server, etc.)

Keep in mind that any command a Moderator, Administrator, or Op would normally use to enforce the above rules represents a monopoly on the use of force.  There are basically only two logical ways of addressing this: either make EVERY player an Op as soon as they join for the first time, or else only have one Op, never log in as that player, and never type commands directly into the console.

Step 3: Get ready for the first wave of refugees!
If running vanilla Minecraft, start a server thread here:  http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum/45-minecraft-survival-servers/ .  If using Tekkit Pack, start a server thread here:   http://forums.technicpack.net/index.php/board,24.0.html .  Follow the forum's standard format for Server thread first posts.  Remember, these need to be Survival servers with no whitelist.  You may also want to include the word "Anarchy" in the thread title and the server MOTD, just so players know what they are getting themselves into.

Step 4: Stand back and watch your society flourish!
No doubt players will flock to your server, lured by the promise of freedom from the oppression of inherently evil Ops and Moderators.  You'll probably have a hard time keeping enough slots available!  Fortunately, this is an easy fix, just state that you will accept donations to keep the server running.  Don't offer any special perks or Donor Powers in exchange for donations, because that would be the equivalent of a state monopoly.  Any item or ability you give to one player, you have to give to all players, not just the ones you like.  If you give DonorDan a fancy compass tied to the /jump command, EntrepreneurialEdward needs to be physically capable of providing the same service to CheapskateChester at a competitive price.

Here are some practices common on most Minecraft servers that you will need to avoid.  If you ever use one of these, you're a State, *unless* everyone else is also able to use them on you, the server owner:
- banning players
- IP ban
- protecting land
- spawning items for players
- rolling back the server to undo grief
- using WorldEdit to build, maintain, or repair large structures
- creating warps
- teleporting to other players (with or without requesting permission first)
- changing a player's mode to Creative Mode
- various sundry cheats and utility commands usually only given to Ops.  Most of these you'd need to install by hand but a few come with bukkit, the most popular way to run a vanilla minecraft server, and a few more come with Tekkit, the Technic Pack server.

Step 5: Anecdotal Evidence!
If an Anarchy is inherently preferable to Statehood, no doubt players will flock to your server, and a few will be eager to throw their money at you since you provide such a great Minecraft experience.  You will have more players and donations than even the most popular protected/moderated servers!  Sure, you will occasionally have problems with griefers, black-hat security crackers (some FAQs erroneously refer to these as "hackers", but whatever,) and PVP drama, but every moderated server also has to deal with these.  Post your experiences in this thread.  Talk about the problems you encounter and describe how you manage to solve them without giving any one player more power or authority than another player.

Troubleshooting Minecraft (and by extension, Tekkit)
Here's some technical issues I've encountered in the past:  If your router uses DHCP, you'll need to set up a reserved slot for your computer, then port forward 25565.  (If you like, you can forward a different port, just make sure you specify the same number in your server.properties file.)

Troubleshooting (Tekkit)
If you're on a mac using Snow Leopard or earlier, you won't be able to install Java 7, which the Advanced Machines mod requires, so delete the Advanced Machines zip file from the /mods/ directory of the server folder.  If you have Windows 7 or anything else that will run Java 7, you can use the community-brewed patch here: http://forums.technicpack.net/index.php/topic,2834.0.html.  Note that without Java 7, the WorldGuard plugin doesn't work right.  So if you want to protect players' structures, you'd need to install and use the iZone plugin instead.  When in doubt, google it, or search the tekkit forum.  If you start a new thread about a common problem, anticipate a side of scorn with your helpful links.  (There's a reason for that tagline in the top right corner of the screen at the tekkit forums)

Good luck, and have fun!
And hey, don't forget to post your server's IP here so we can all come see your results!
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 01:57:34 pm
This is an interesting idea... But unless you can ban players, by which I mean the actual person, not a login name, griefers will be a huge problem. The problem is (and this unfortunately applies to almost every simulation) there's no consequences to people's actions.

If that can be done - and given to every player - then you might have a good simulation.

Also, like a real AnCap civ, you might want to announce it on here first, before opening it to the rest of the minecraft community.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 03:04:52 pm
Griefers will always be a huge problem, on all servers.  The combination of a user ban (these are paid accounts, you know,) and an IP ban is usually pretty effective unless the griefer is using a cracked client or has a lot of friends.  Then you need to start looking at damage control or other alternatives.

Now, on a well-thought-out, properly configured, well-moderated server with a great community and a few hand-picked security plugins, the impact of griefers can be greatly minimized.  But each of the mechanisms that are typically used to deal with griefers are usually placed into the hands of one or more trusted admins, each answerable to the server owner.  This is analogous to a delegated system of government with a central authority figure.

That's precisely what makes this experiment so compelling!  In real life, there's always folks willing to ignore the consequences of their actions.  There's even people literally willing to die for no other purpose than to damage a building!

So.  Your goal is to figure out a way to deal with griefers without elevating one trusted user over everyone else.  I told you everything you need to know in order to set up a server.  Go for it.  I'll wait.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: rfaramir on May 18, 2012, 03:32:03 pm
This may be one way to set it up, but it's missing an obvious component, the god of the world and his role. The owner of the server is as god to the virtual world created within the software running on his hardware. The hardware is his property and no one else has any say as to what peaceful things he does with it, including nearly absolutely any configuration of the electronic and magnetic parts of it (all the software and RAM memory and hard drive memory).

Now let's assume this god (real human in our world) wants to simulate an Anarchy of Player Personas. He (or she, but using old-fashioned inclusive 'he' throughout) will want to consider the nature of the Universe he wants the Players to have. It already has a god (himself), but he may want to his Universe to be appear to be godless (like EFT has the authors, but in-Universe has no gods that have shown themselves, yet). Unless he is willing to wait for random evolutionary processes (like cosmic rays hitting his server's hard drive in a miraculously specific pattern), he cannot *actually* have a godless Universe; the best he can make is a Deist one, where he as god sets it up and leaves the clockwork Universe and the Players to work itself and themselves out, while he continues to pay the electric bills, ISP bills, and rent/mortgage/taxes to keep it going behind the scenes. Any intrusions of the god into the inner workings of his Universe would make him more present and active than a Deist deity, so he has to constrain himself very carefully, or he will spoil his own intentions.

So what actions are these, and what should this god do? I'm referring to many of the things that WarpZone called statist actions. Most of them are really, instead, god-actions, since they pertain to real-world things like IP addresses and server configurations.

Whether any server mod is installed is a god-only action (assuming that no in-Universe player can root the server and install the software himself--admittedly not a great assumption). To see this, imagine the server already set up and you're a player playing in it without electricity, ore processing, and lasers. You log in the next day and suddenly you're in a different Universe! Everything is just as it was, except for these new capabilities. That was the god installing the mod. The only way this could be construed as interference would be if the owner listened in (as god) to the players and found that they wanted the new capability and installed the mod in response. He has "listened to their prayers" and responded positively to them (and negatively to anyone praying that things would stay 'vanilla'). The owner has complete discretion here, as this is not at all a State-like activity, although it is force, it is not player-to-player force, but god-to-creation force. He'll just have to consider what kind of god he wants to be and what kind of creation he wants to have.

IP banning is a grey area. If player activity has any negative effects on the owner's hardware or even interferes with his use of it (his liberty with his property), he has every right to ban the player with any mechanism he chooses, including IP banning. This is the right of the hardware owner to defend his property. Where this would be State-like interference, is if the god chooses to exercise this power in response to in-Universe actions that do NOT actually affect his hardware but only the players. This would clearly compromise the premise of an Anarchy. Where this would be a grey area is where the enjoyment of his property is contingent on the enjoyment of other real-world humans controlling their Player Personas. As proprietor of the Minecraft server, possibly with paying customers, he has to service their wants, but their wants will largely be in-game wants. For now, I'll leave this as an open question.

Protecting land is ambiguous. If it means setting up unchangeability of certain world areas ahead of time, then it is the god's prerogative. If it means using god-like ability in service of Players who claim world areas as their in-game property, that is interference. If you want to play that kind of god, that's for you to decide, but your Universe will be distinctly unlike the EFT Universe. And if you do it in response to their in-game behaviors, it will look like statist force. It will only *be* statist, if the owner also plays as an in-game Persona.

Same for "spawning items for players".

"rolling back the server to undo grief" is another grey area. If the 'grief' is actually harm done to the owner's hardware, including software configuration (but NOT including RAM/HD contents arrangement, i.e., Universe alterations by Player Personas), then it is the owner's prerogative. But if by 'grief' you mean using in-game mechanics for purely in-game effects that happen to greatly inconvenience other Players, it really needs to be solved in-game as well. Asking for god-like solutions here is awfully like asking the State for its 'solutions'.

"using WorldEdit to build, maintain, or repair large structures" is severe interference of a god-like kind. I'd recommend against it, but as the server owner, it's up to you. You'd have to have angelic restraint to refrain from doing this for in-game reasons, but I suppose it could be possible. More than likely, you'd be using these god-like powers in response to in-game actions you don't like, which is awfully State-like. I don't think most players want to live in a world whose god is still actively forming it.

"creating warps" If I understand correctly (I don't play Minecraft, yet), this is like the above building. A world with warp points in it is fine, if that's what you want your Universe to have. To create them at Player behest is being an active god and probably unwanted, and worse would be creating for your own enjoyment as an incarnated god.

"teleporting to other players (with or without requesting permission first)" is only a god-like action for an incarnated deity, as there is no way for a real world human owner to 'teleport' INTO the simulated Universe. I don't recommend playing in your world, unless you really want to see how hard it was for Jesus to be fully human without cheating and using any of his God-powers on his own behalf but only exercising them when His Father told Him to. You'd basically have to be as perfectly self-restrained as Him, so don't, you'd probably ruin it.

I first read that last one as "teleporting other players (with or without requesting permission first)" (notice lack of 'to'), which is purely god-like interference with no incarnation needed. Still, don't do it unless you want to play a capricious god, which you shouldn't.

"changing a player's mode to Creative Mode" This is giving god-powers to other Players. Highly NOT recommended, but up to you, if as owner you want a polytheistic Universe. The only sense of 'Anarchy' this would create is as Chaos.

"various sundry cheats and utility commands usually only given to Ops". Again, like the previous one, this is sharing god-powers with other Players. I don't recommend it, but it's not State-like, it is multiple god-like.


In short, almost everything that WarpZone brings up are theological matters, not political matters, after all. A few of them could mix, but a good owner/moderator won't mix them. The reason so much of this looks like Statism is that the State puts itself into the place of God, attempting thereby to justify its intervention and use of force. To the powerless in this world these acts feel as inevitable and inescapable as God's actions (note equality of "death and taxes" in the old proverb). But to be scientifically exact, they are not at all the same thing.

A better test of Anarcho-Capitalism through Minecraft would be to clearly define what is or can be in-game property of Player Personas and let Players work out their own rules voluntarily, with no rulers imposing anything, especially the owner of the server.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 03:51:58 pm
That's actually a very good point, rfaramir.  Okay.

So to actually run this thing properly, the admin would have to basically lie low, not run an avatar in the world, not build anything, not delegate powers to other players, and not speak to or listen to players, ever.  

Maybe gin up some kinda custom script to let any player ban any other player at any time.  (Should be simple enough, just add the commands /ban, /kick, and /ipban when the user first joins the server... I think you can do this in permissions.yml, actually, if you're using tekkit.)

You'll find that actually killing another player using in-game weapons basically amounts to a mugging.  Bans would be tantamount to the death penalty.  (Yes, sometimes a few dedicated griefers can figure out a way around this, at least until you ban all their alts and their buddies, but just treat that as a particularly nasty war or something, with friends and family of the deceased enacting their revenge.)

The point is, anyone can permanently kill anyone, just like in real life.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 03:54:50 pm
Griefers will always be a huge problem, on all servers.  The combination of a user ban (these are paid accounts, you know,) and an IP ban is usually pretty effective unless the griefer is using a cracked client or has a lot of friends.  Then you need to start looking at damage control or other alternatives.

Now, on a well-thought-out, properly configured, well-moderated server with a great community and a few hand-picked security plugins, the impact of griefers can be greatly minimized.  

I don't have Minecraft (I know, I know, I'm in the stone age!), but this might be sufficient to get me to buy it. How would one deal with a user with a cracked client in a conventional server? (the 'bunch of friends', I think we can deal with by player action - ie the player ban... we'll just have a long ban list)

Well-thought out and properly configured I think we can handle. (in fact, I nominate rfaramir - they seem to have covered the well-thought-out part fairly thoroughly) If we have a great community, the well-moderated part will take care of itself. I am interested in these "security plugins". Where can I find more info on them?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 04:07:32 pm
Bukkit (which is included with Tekkit,) includes a framework which allows developers to create plugins for it without decompiling the JAR file.  Some of the many security plugins are here:  http://dev.bukkit.org/search/?search=security

Some of the newer ones allow players to convert resources acquired in-game into coins which are used to purchase protected land without any direct moderator interference.

But again, if God goes around protecting everyone's house from burglars, or respawing their TVs after an attack, that's not really an AnCap, it's an accurate Theocracy.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 04:57:31 pm
But again, if God goes around protecting everyone's house from burglars, or respawing their TVs after an attack, that's not really an AnCap, it's an accurate Theocracy.

Interesting. And I agree, the server owner should not go about "making things right," that's the role of the other players. I honestly think this could work. I don't have time to actually start a server at the moment, but I would probably join if anyone started up a server.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: rfaramir on May 18, 2012, 06:17:11 pm
Quote from: myrkul999
I nominate rfaramir - they [he :)] seem to have covered the well-thought-out part fairly thoroughly

I'm flattered, but really, there's a lot more to consider. I was only responding to what WarpZone first proposed. It really helped that he listed so many specific things. That made it easy to react to.


But again, if God goes around protecting everyone's house from burglars, or respawing their TVs after an attack, that's not really an AnCap, it's an accurate Theocracy.

Interesting. And I agree, the server owner should not go about "making things right," that's the role of the other players. I honestly think this could work. I don't have time to actually start a server at the moment, but I would probably join if anyone started up a server.

Actually, in the competitive world of providing attractive Minecraft server universes for others to play in, each owner should advertise what level of pro-active interference he will provide. This is Anarcho-Capitalism in the real world. But an active god will feel like a State to the Players, in addition to ruining the in-game AnCap experiment. A protective one will feel like a nanny state, at best, for example, but it would be interference nonetheless. So what we should develop is a list of attributes of a Minecraft universe that we would like to play in, in order to try an AnCap world. This list should aim to help owner-operators to set up attractive worlds and also to educate and attract players who would like to experience such a thing.

Is it normal for Players to Pay to Play? (I'm displaying my Minecraft ignorance again.) If so, for what do they pay, exactly? The right to an account only? Or are there in-game advantages that can be purchased? These would all be very interesting for a server owner in a real-world Capitalist sense, but any purchasable in-game advantages would make for a very intrusive god who listens to out-of-world matters (real money) to perform in-game actions. I don't think we'd want much of this at all.

Some things that I think would work:
pay for Avatar customization (no function advantages other than appearance)
pay for Slightly faster production (maybe 50% faster while logged on and 5-10% faster while offline compared to non-payer)
pay for Ability to speak to in-game-distant specific players
pay for Ability to broadcast to all players

Some of the things we MIGHT want:
pay for Ability to speak with the server owner (this could be abused, but if only information were given out, it could be useful--maybe everyone gets a single ticket to talk a week, more have to be purchased?)
pay for god-like protected area

Some of the many many things that we would NOT want:
pay for fixing buildings or other destruction (should be done in-game only)
pay for harming the experience of other players (retribution should be in-game only, except for actions that affect the server itself and therefore the experience of all the owner's customers)
pay for any god-like powers (banning, Creator mode)

Some things we do NOT want from the owner/operator/god of the server:
Do not mess with the world after it is started up (be a Deist deity)
Or at least do not mess with homesteaded areas, changing wilderness might be tolerable
Do not mess with players (speaking with them possibly excepted, preferably not)
Do not ban IP addresses except where the actual operation of the server is jeopardized
Do not ban players (let them negotiate their own black lists)

Man there is so much more, but I gotta stop somewhere. Mostly a lot of freedom-froms, as you might expect in an AnCap, but as the server owner has these powers whether the players want him to or not, we have to ask nicely ahead of time for commitments to refrain from using them, so as not to waste a lot of time setting up a nice AnCap Topia to have it ruined by a nanny god later.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 06:51:34 pm
Quote from: myrkul999
I nominate rfaramir - they [he :)] seem to have covered the well-thought-out part fairly thoroughly

I'm flattered, but really, there's a lot more to consider. I was only responding to what WarpZone first proposed. It really helped that he listed so many specific things. That made it easy to react to.

Still, the rest of your posting shows that you have thought out what it would take to get this going, certainly more than I have time for. ;)
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 08:05:15 pm
What I'd really like to see is a bunch of different servers all trying different things so we can see which ones attract the most players.  (Can we agree that more players and more long-term regulars generally indicates a "better" server?)

I have a problem with you offering donor gifts.  Not a problem with the practice as a business model, mind you, lots of servers do it.  (It tends to be a one-time lump-sum donation of between $1 and $20, with better perks for higher donation amounts.)  But it completely spoils the AnCap experience we're trying to simulate.  If DonorDan has ANY advantage "provided by god" in exchange for giving "God" money outside the system, that's basically exactly the same thing as a state picking winners and losers in industry.  

What's that?  The perk was just the ability to fly?  That's technology suppression.  A couple of extra iron ingots per day?  That's a government subsidy.  You made the guy's name-tag blue in chat instead of white?  That's an advertising subsidy.

If your AnCap server accepts donations, it is VITAL (for the purposes of the simulation) that real players giving you money have absolutely ZERO impact upon their in-game performance.  Otherwise, you're functioning exactly the same way an elected official does, taking contributions so you can remain in your position in exchange for kickbacks.  Any perk, big or small, has an impact.

Doesn't matter if you say it's the role of God Not The State or whatever.  If it affects some players, and not others, it's intervention, which makes you a Ruler.

And if this payment and negotiation for perks is all going on in Skype or TeamSpeak or in private messages, not on the actual server?  Then that's even worse, that's a shadow government!
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 08:30:09 pm
Good points, all. (And funny!) Of the things he suggests might work, only the customization of skin should be allowed, IMO. That has absolutely no in-game effect, everything else is at least a slight advantage.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 09:08:39 pm
Actually, minecraft already allows every player to customize their skin anyway by default.  (If anything, it's a little too generous compared to IRL, where clothing can be quite expensive, but whatever.)  We're not trying for a 1:1 perfect simulation, we're just trying to get as many of the big themes covered as we can.  Poverty and wealth are in there by default, as are productivity, fear of the unknown, and a whole hell of a lot of logistics, especially if you go the Tekkit route.

What is conspicuously absent is the theme of life and death (you can die, but it just sends you to the spawn and drops your stuff on the ground, which can be anything from a minor inconvenience to the loss of your entire life savings depending on the details.)  In practice, the only possible form of "death" that would be analogous to an execution in real life is getting banned from the server.  Which is why I say if you ever ban a single griefer, you also need to give every player the ability to ban any other player.  Otherwise it's policing the server.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 09:26:37 pm
In practice, the only possible form of "death" that would be analogous to an execution in real life is getting banned from the server.  Which is why I say if you ever ban a single griefer, you also need to give every player the ability to ban any other player.  Otherwise it's policing the server.

Agreed. Maybe giving every player the /ban ability right off the bat might be a bad idea, but we shouldn't put that in the hands of anyone... maybe on a timer. Give griefers a chance to show themselves before they go on a "killing spree".
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 09:41:03 pm
Agreed. Maybe giving every player the /ban ability right off the bat might be a bad idea, but we shouldn't put that in the hands of anyone... maybe on a timer. Give griefers a chance to show themselves before they go on a "killing spree".

Oh, so a five day waiting period on guns?  Yeah, that doesn't sound like something a government would do at all.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 09:54:08 pm
Agreed. Maybe giving every player the /ban ability right off the bat might be a bad idea, but we shouldn't put that in the hands of anyone... maybe on a timer. Give griefers a chance to show themselves before they go on a "killing spree".

Oh, so a five day waiting period on guns?  Yeah, that doesn't sound like something a government would do at all.

More like mom and dad not giving a gun to their five-year old kid and letting him wander around the neighborhood. ;)
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 10:05:01 pm
More like mom and dad not giving a gun to their five-year old kid and letting him wander around the neighborhood. ;)

But surely in an AnCap society, somebody would eventually show the kid a gun...

No, you know what?  As long as it's consistent and it's described up-front on all descriptions of the server, you can treat it as a law of physics.  As long it's purely mechanical (done by the server itself, not the op interacting with the server,) and you never prevent it from happening or change the length of time it takes.

So what length of time are you going to set it at?  Five days?  18 days?  A year?  It ultimately boils down to what specific type of violence monopoly you want the Old Money to have over the Nouveau Riche.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 18, 2012, 10:20:38 pm
So what length of time are you going to set it at?  Five days?  18 days?  A year?  It ultimately boils down to what specific type of violence monopoly you want the Old Money to have over the Nouveau Riche.

I was actually thinking in hours... maybe 6 to 8, tops, but not less than 2. Won't stop the guys playing the long game, but most griefers just come in and start sh*t right away. Giving these people /ban right away... it would be messy.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mellyrn on May 18, 2012, 10:25:49 pm
OK, if "not playing minecraft" = "stone age", I'm more like, oh, Australopithecus.  Still, I am totally for each player having that /ban ability.  You're being afraid of your own imagining of what people might do with that kind of power, which is (I think) exactly where government comes from.  This "minecraft" is a game; it's a fine way to find out what people actually will do, and nobody gets hurt (except virtually).

It's possible that, since it's a game, people will "kill" much more freely than they would really kill in real life; otoh, since it's a game and /ban = game death (not real death), it might scale.

Only one way to find out, guys.

I'm curious as to how these "griefers" might alter their behavior knowing that anyone could ban them, as opposed to what I imagine usually happens:  waiting until enough players have expressed enough annoyance that "God" sighs, puts down His Cheetos, and bans them.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 18, 2012, 10:44:09 pm
Yep, only one way to find out!

Keep in mind, though, you're not competing with Real Life.  You're just competing with standard, run-of-the-mill minecraft servers that restrict some specific abilities in order to mitigate some specific types of attacks. 

If you consistently get more players than the typical "well-moderated" server, congratulations!  Your AnCap society is considered desirable by humans.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 19, 2012, 12:42:26 am
You definitely need a meaningful death mechanic to cause players in a game to seriously role-play the situation, without which this will have less than no connection real life sociology.  A strong current example of a game with death is the Day Z Mod for ARMA (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/12/for-the-love-of-pc-gaming-download-day-z-arma-2s-zombie-survival-mod/), which is showing some very interesting and atypical styles of play.  (Possibly relevant note: Full-on zombie apocalypse survivalist anarchy, and popular enough to drag a full price game out of retirement (http://www.vg247.com/2012/05/17/day-z-mod-drives-arma-2-sales-up-500/) after years of lying fallow)

My first thought for mechanics would be to use an old concept from pen and paper role playing games, where players are incapacitated rather than killed by physical damage, and can then be rescued or killed outright (banned?) by another player, provided no-one else interferes.  This would allow for degrees of criminality, and give murder some moral weight, without limiting it to the use of a magical command against which there is no natural defense.

... a quick look at pre-existing mods turns up Death & Rebirth (http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/death-and-rebirth/), in which dead players become ghosts largely incapable of interacting with the world, but can be resurrected by another player using up a valuable item defined by the server admin.  Not perfect, but pretty close, especially if ghosts could be immobilised.  It certainly allows for recovery from accidental death while leaving premeditated murder on the cards, the aggressor could trap the ghost far from rescue attempts, or declare war and kill off anyone prepared to assist their chosen victim.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 19, 2012, 01:04:37 am
I find it interesting that, when I suggested an armed society could lead to a bloodbath under the right conditions, you all rejected it as nonsense, but you same people are concerned about giving everyone the right to ban anyone in a game! You even acknowledge that a universal ban ability is analogous to having a deadly weapon! Doesn't this strike you people as being disingenuous, even a tad hypocritical?

I have no qualms about giving everyone a ban command. What I have concerns about is giving them all a ban command right away. Even a "good" player might ban someone - possibly multiple people - before realizing how much damage they're doing. See the above example of the people handed fake guns. A couple of hours to get to see the world, interact with the people, etc, should make that less likely to happen. Just like the people who have had gun training. That's what we call an "analogy".
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 19, 2012, 01:22:33 am
The problem with a /ban command is that it's not a deadly weapon, it's a godlike power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note).  Infinite range, never misses, no defense, can't get your shot in first, all you need is a name.  If everyone has that you're not simulating anything human, but the politics of demigods on Mount Olympus.  Is that the goal here?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 19, 2012, 01:39:35 am
The problem with a /ban command is that it's not a deadly weapon, it's a godlike power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note).  Infinite range, never misses, no defense, can't get your shot in first, all you need is a name.  If everyone has that you're not simulating anything human, but the politics of demigods on Mount Olympus.  Is that the goal here?

Ouch... good point. Anyone have any suggestions, like tying the ban to a weapon hit, or the like?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 19, 2012, 01:49:47 am
Quote
Anyone have any suggestions?
Four posts back, sir.  :D
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 19, 2012, 01:51:36 am
Quote
Anyone have any suggestions?
Four posts back, sir.  :D
Herp-a-derp. Thanks.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: sam on May 19, 2012, 02:49:45 am
The problem with a /ban command is that it's not a deadly weapon, it's a godlike power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note).  Infinite range, never misses, no defense, can't get your shot in first, all you need is a name.  If everyone has that you're not simulating anything human, but the politics of demigods on Mount Olympus.  Is that the goal here?

Obvious solution is to make it probabilistic, and that if you use it, counterfire can stop both your name and your IP.

So if Bob attempts to ban Carol, there is a thirty percent chance that Carol is banned, a ten percent chance that Carol's IP gets banned, a ten percent chance that Bob gets banned and a five percent chance that Bob's IP gets banned.  There is, however, a seventy percent chance that Carol is not banned, is notified of the operation, and gets the option of responding.

These probabilities are independent.  Worst case outcome is that Carol gets banned, Bob gets banned, and his IP gets banned.  Most likely outcome is that no one gets banned, but Carol is aware that Bob is sniping at her.

You get one shot for each period that both people are logged on, or if semipermanently logged on, one shot per day.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 19, 2012, 03:00:54 am
The problem with a /ban command is that it's not a deadly weapon, it's a godlike power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note).  Infinite range, never misses, no defense, can't get your shot in first, all you need is a name.  If everyone has that you're not simulating anything human, but the politics of demigods on Mount Olympus.  Is that the goal here?

I figured the goal is to see what happens when you give 100% of the members of a society the right to use deadly force, while removing any type of central authority.  We're concerned with rights, here, not tactics.  Right?

We can easily just assume that in the real world, some of the shots would have missed, hit innocent bystanders, devolved from duels into skirmishes, etc.  Right?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 19, 2012, 03:11:37 am
The right to use deadly force is pretty much on by default in computer games, and Minecraft is no exception.  The problem you need to solve is the other default, where anyone killed immediately comes back to life, making deadly force almost meaningless.  I don't think turning everyone into Valentine Michael Smith is your best possible solution.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 19, 2012, 03:40:17 am
The problem with a /ban command is that it's not a deadly weapon, it's a godlike power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note).  Infinite range, never misses, no defense, can't get your shot in first, all you need is a name.  If everyone has that you're not simulating anything human, but the politics of demigods on Mount Olympus.  Is that the goal here?

Obvious solution is to make it probabilistic, and that if you use it, counterfire can stop both your name and your IP.

So if Bob attempts to ban Carol, there is a thirty percent chance that Carol is banned, a ten percent chance that Carol's IP gets banned, a ten percent chance that Bob gets banned and a five percent chance that Bob's IP gets banned.  There is, however, a seventy percent chance that Carol is not banned, is notified of the operation, and gets the option of responding.

These probabilities are independent.  Worst case outcome is that Carol gets banned, Bob gets banned, and his IP gets banned.  Most likely outcome is that no one gets banned, but Carol is aware that Bob is sniping at her.

You get one shot for each period that both people are logged on, or if semipermanently logged on, one shot per day.

What?  So we simulate a society in which all guns randomly misfire?  Instead of giving every citizen the ability/authority to take a life to protect the common good, we hamstring everybody, good guys and bad guys alike, with artificial randomness?  This sounds less like a way to deal with troublemakers and more like Russian Roulette.

Remember what the point of a ban command is in the first place.  Some guy logs on and starts deleting everybody else's buildings.  You catch him doing it, you ban him.  The longer he's running around doing it, the more of your world is destroyed.

The actual worst case scenario, according to your system is, Bob logs on, starts tearing apart the town square, and Carol and 5 other people accidentally commit suicide trying to stop him.  He laughs and continues tearing apart the town square.  Because physics favors the defender for some reason.

This isn't that complicated.  It's a moral question, not a question of tactics.  Someone is breaking the rules.  You have perfect tools to stop him.  What do you, as a society of equals, choose to DO about it?

You have the authority and you have the capability, and your opponent is equally matched with you.  How do you resolve a conflict?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 19, 2012, 03:57:04 am
This isn't that complicated.  It's a moral question, not a question of tactics.  Someone is breaking the rules.  You have perfect tools to stop him.  What do you, as a society of equals, choose to DO about it?

You have the authority and you have the capability, and your opponent is equally matched with you.  How do you resolve a conflict?

Well, it is a simulation, and not meant to be 100% accurate to reality. I think a ban command is a close enough approximation to real-world lethal force. Even if it does mean that the world is populated by people armed with Death Notes, rather than guns.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 19, 2012, 04:40:29 am
The right to use deadly force is pretty much on by default in computer games, and Minecraft is no exception.  The problem you need to solve is the other default, where anyone killed immediately comes back to life, making deadly force almost meaningless.  I don't think turning everyone into Valentine Michael Smith is your best possible solution.

As already discussed, /ban is the rough equivilent to permadeath.  Death by conventional weapons is really more of a mugging.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 19, 2012, 04:46:27 am
Exactly.  You could probably even apply statistical data from IRL gunfights to arrive at a good guess as to how messy the Death Note numbers would have been if they'd been using guns.

Besides, if you're following the ZAP, the ban command should hardly ever need to get used, right?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: sam on May 19, 2012, 04:42:55 pm
Obvious solution is to make it probabilistic, and that if you use it, counterfire can stop both your name and your IP.

So if Bob attempts to ban Carol, there is a thirty percent chance that Carol is banned, a ten percent chance that Carol's IP gets banned, a ten percent chance that Bob gets banned and a five percent chance that Bob's IP gets banned.  There is, however, a seventy percent chance that Carol is not banned, is notified of the operation, and gets the option of responding.

What?  So we simulate a society in which all guns randomly misfire?

We simulate a society where you cannot take someone out without a risk of yourself being taken out.  The simplest way to do this is to simulate a horrible misfire rate.

A better way to do it, would be to have a PVP minigame where the loser gets taken out, and the group who starts the minigame has an large, but not insuperable, advantage.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 20, 2012, 04:31:44 am
We simulate a society where you cannot take someone out without a risk of yourself being taken out.  The simplest way to do this is to simulate a horrible misfire rate.

A better way to do it, would be to have a PVP minigame where the loser gets taken out, and the group who starts the minigame has an large, but not insuperable, advantage.

Wait, so now it's the attacker who has the advantage?  So, a griefer who shoots first has an edge over the innocent people being fired upon?  Yeah, that seems conducive to a zero aggression policy.

Making the tools harder to use just muddies the issue.  There is no magic "balanced and realistic" system that will cause players to take your game as seriously as you do.  Just like in real life, the death penalty doesn't prevent crime perfectly.

But your AnCap server doesn't need to be perfect.  It just needs to be better than a typical server, where bans are handed down by some guy who runs the place.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: sam on May 20, 2012, 05:52:10 pm
We simulate a society where you cannot take someone out without a risk of yourself being taken out.  The simplest way to do this is to simulate a horrible misfire rate.

Wait, so now it's the attacker who has the advantage?  So, a griefer who shoots first has an edge over the innocent people being fired upon?

Sure - but griefer offends everyone, so, will get taken out, while most innocent people will not be taken out.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 20, 2012, 10:53:32 pm
Quote
As already discussed, /ban is the rough equivilent to permadeath.  Death by conventional weapons is really more of a mugging.

It's the state of being banned that is roughly equivalent to death, though, not the /ban command itself.  This isn't pedantry, a popular use of the banned state is for 'hardcore' servers to temporarily ban players upon death, be it for an hour or a month, in an effort to make death more than an inconvenience.  For the purposes of this simulation, you could make that 'temporary' period one year, although it might be best if this only applied to deaths directly caused by others.  Or you could have an automatic one day ban upon death, then allow aggrieved citizens to extend that time if they see fit.  A double tap, if you will.

Look at these efforts to add licensing laws and statistical simulation to the /ban command...  By the time you have enough rules and exceptions nailed onto your modified command to cover all objections, it'll be functionally equivalent to the projectile weapons that already exist in the game.  At that point, you're better off just adding an ammunition type with a /ban effect.

My central thought here is that while you need permadeath as well as 'game' death, it makes little sense to disconnect them.  Provided you needed to kill someone before banning them, most of the problems would go away.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 20, 2012, 11:12:48 pm
This isn't pedantry, a popular use of the banned state is for 'hardcore' servers to temporarily ban players upon death, be it for an hour or a month, in an effort to make death more than an inconvenience.  For the purposes of this simulation, you could make that 'temporary' period one year, although it might be best if this only applied to deaths directly caused by others. 

Or just not make it temporary at all. Player death + permanent ban is pretty much exactly what we're looking for. I agree, we should probably make that only the deaths caused by players, though. I'm not sure if falling damage is implemented or not, but it would suck to trip and be kicked out forever.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 20, 2012, 11:55:26 pm
Falling, drowning, starving to death (recently this mechanic was nerfed because it was too frustrating to make food, which takes a long time to grow, your FIRST priority,) being killed by monsters, suffocation (usually caused by having a tunnel cave in on you or a tree grow around you, though physics glitches are not entirely unheard of either,) TNT explosions, falling into lava, having lava fall on YOU, and logging in to discover that the space you occupied when you logged off has been edited, are all interesting ways to die in Minecraft that do not involve malicious intent on behalf of a player.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 20, 2012, 11:58:45 pm
Quote
Or just not make it temporary at all. Player death + permanent ban is pretty much exactly what we're looking for.

Don't know offhand if pre-existing mods support that explicitly, but if you just have the ban last longer than the experiment...

Quote
I agree, we should probably make that only the deaths caused by players, though. I'm not sure if falling damage is implemented or not, but it would suck to trip and be kicked out forever.

Yeah, the standard game has plenty of environmental hazards, as detailed by WarpZone.  It can all be adjusted or disabled on the server, of course, and players can do a lot to make themselves and each other safer, but yes.  If any mistake kills you permanently, that's worse than real life, which allows for prompt medical attention and healing.  I don't think you'd get enough population.

Oh, here's a question: Do you have the server publicly announce kills?  Default behaviour is to name the deceased, the cause, and if there is one, the killer.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ex-Gooserider on May 21, 2012, 12:48:10 am
No interest in playing the game, or if it's possible, but seems to me like having a moderate "time out" for the killed player, and possibly a shorter "freeze" time for the killer might work...  In addition announce the death, who did the player in, and offer the option to review records on killed and killer, and where the dead player will reanimate...

Test cases - John gets done in by Harry...  John is gone for 24 hours.  Harry is tied to the scene and can't take any action for 30 minutes...

John was being an ass, Harry did him in to stop his being a problem - no vengance, the "public safety committee" stops by to hand Harry a thank-you note...

John was being a really big problem - Public Safety Committee has someone stick around where he'll be coming back to pop him off again (or maybe build booby trap?)

Harry was being a problem and shot John as part of it...  John (who has made a few friends) is out for the day, but his friends do in Harry while he's "frozen" - revert back to situation above in re: Public Safety...

To close to call - both were being idiots - ignore, or have shootout between eachother's friends, or have freeze time as cool down period and let arbitration co. step in to resolve issue...

Just what occurred to me as a possible solution to make death painful, but also make doing another player in risky enough to be a disincentive to doing it w/o good cause...

ex-Gooserider
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 21, 2012, 01:27:04 am
Just what occurred to me as a possible solution to make death painful, but also make doing another player in risky enough to be a disincentive to doing it w/o good cause...

ex-Gooserider

Except we're trying to simulate AnCap society in the real world, not in a perfect world where murderers are frozen in place for half an hour.

Default behaviour is to name the deceased, the cause, and if there is one, the killer.

This seems to be more than sufficient. If we want to simulate real life a little more closely, we could remove the killer notification, Or we can leave it in to help nip killing sprees in the bud. Personally, I'd rather leave it in, so people could use the chat to hash out what happened.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: Zeppflyer on May 21, 2012, 11:05:36 pm
Just what occurred to me as a possible solution to make death painful, but also make doing another player in risky enough to be a disincentive to doing it w/o good cause...

ex-Gooserider

Except we're trying to simulate AnCap society in the real world, not in a perfect world where murderers are frozen in place for half an hour.

Default behaviour is to name the deceased, the cause, and if there is one, the killer.

This seems to be more than sufficient. If we want to simulate real life a little more closely, we could remove the killer notification, Or we can leave it in to help nip killing sprees in the bud. Personally, I'd rather leave it in, so people could use the chat to hash out what happened.


You can, in MC, build a prison from which a player can't escape until you let them out, provided that you can force them to surrender their tools.


I agree that there should be no /ban command for dealing with regular miscreants.  To give it to a person would make them god.  To give it to everybody would make things too easy.  No society could survive if it were *that* easy to kill people.  Ban should only happen when a player kills another or dies due to environmental hazards.  I can see maybe a small number of respawns for environmental deaths.  Call this 'childhood'.

Biggest issue with no /ban that I see is the ease by which a player can set off a server-freezing trap.  Infinite chickens or melons are always fun.  When this happens, it becomes impossible to step in and kill a person by conventional means.  If it's stated up front that such things result in perma-ban and the threat is always carried out, this could be considered the conditions of the universe.  Alternately, this could be an endpoint for the experiment; one of the triggers to say "This is how long run X lasted before society fell apart."

Ultimately, the biggest problem is that in real life, a person has only one life to give for themselves.  Barring religious belief, of course, but a true belief is a hard thing to have in this world.  However, in MC, the penalties are much lower.  If you're a dick on server A and get banned, you can hop right on to one of a hundred more servers.  Maybe they're not quite as good, but it's a fairly small price.  So, with an assurance of an 'afterlife', it becomes much easier to have the MC equivalent of suicide bombers:  Those who get fulfillment from destroying the lives and works of others in the sure knowledge that when they leave this life, they will be reincarnated and able to do it all over again.  A server with the avowed purpose of running such an experiment, and a clear statement that there is no banning or reverting, would be a magnet for griefers.  If MC had an overarching method for completely banning people once they'd been banned from, say, 4 or 5 reputable servers, this might work.  But as is, it'll be grief city and the honest players will never be able to get off of the ground.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 21, 2012, 11:27:52 pm
Biggest issue with no /ban that I see is the ease by which a player can set off a server-freezing trap.  Infinite chickens or melons are always fun.  When this happens, it becomes impossible to step in and kill a person by conventional means.  If it's stated up front that such things result in perma-ban and the threat is always carried out, this could be considered the conditions of the universe. 

Hmm. I would need a little more info. How does the infinite chickens/melons thing work? I don't need instructions, mind, just what happens when someone does it, to prevent murder by normal means.

Is it something that could be detected by the server, and autoban? Or would a mod need to be active to watch for something that is impossible to stop via "normal" means? Can the infinite chickens thing be prevented?

We may need to go back to the "everybody gets a death note".
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mharr on May 22, 2012, 12:31:43 am
Quote
Biggest issue with no /ban that I see is the ease by which a player can set off a server-freezing trap.  Infinite chickens or melons are always fun.

There are anti-lag mods that minimise the effect of such tomfoolery, but if someone achieves this kind of thing, they've really stepped outside the bounds of the game and made an attack against the actual server hardware in the real world.  At that point, admin has to pull out the ban hammer, and will probably need to roll back time too.

Quote
Is it something that could be detected by the server, and autoban? Or would a mod need to be active to watch for something that is impossible to stop via "normal" means? Can the infinite chickens thing be prevented?

You could potentially autoban some of the standard trolls, but that gets into false positive issues.  Given the creativity of internet dickery (http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=GOONSWARM), you basically need at least one guy with god powers to protect the game world and work out who dunnit.  Probably better if he doesn't have an avatar in game.

Infinite, or at least indefinite chickens are pretty much built in, they're the only animal that breeds by simple geometric progression.  (Every chicken lays a constant supply of eggs, 1/8 of which can be hatched.  Simultaneously, if you build a big enough egg hatching machine.)

Quote
A server with the avowed purpose of running such an experiment, and a clear statement that there is no banning or reverting, would be a magnet for griefers.

That is a fundamental problem.  It may be better not to publish the server address on the open internet, and to distribute invites across the friend-of-a-friend network.  Not to limit population to AnCap enthusiasts, but to any who will engage with the experiment in good faith.

Use of the Technic Pack (http://www.technicpack.net/) mentioned in the original proposal would also help to alleviate this problem, as it requires that the players modify their client software.  Most griefers won't have the time for that, when there are so many other standard servers to vandalise.

Also, lasers (http://technicpack.wikia.com/wiki/Mining_Laser).
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: Zeppflyer on May 22, 2012, 01:06:02 am
Biggest issue with no /ban that I see is the ease by which a player can set off a server-freezing trap.  Infinite chickens or melons are always fun.  When this happens, it becomes impossible to step in and kill a person by conventional means.  If it's stated up front that such things result in perma-ban and the threat is always carried out, this could be considered the conditions of the universe. 

Hmm. I would need a little more info. How does the infinite chickens/melons thing work? I don't need instructions, mind, just what happens when someone does it, to prevent murder by normal means.

Is it something that could be detected by the server, and autoban? Or would a mod need to be active to watch for something that is impossible to stop via "normal" means? Can the infinite chickens thing be prevented?

We may need to go back to the "everybody gets a death note".

I don't know the full details since I mostly play on a Classic server which doesn't have this, but the gist is this:  There are two basic sorts of memory overflow bombs that can kill the server:  Quick and slow.  Basically, the idea is to spawn more and more of an item until the server can't keep up and bogs down.  One quick trap involves filling dozens of dispensers (all-purpose storage units) with eggs which, when tripped, start firing eggs everywhere which hatch quickly into chickens:  Chickens which the server must then control the behavior of. 

A slow trap can merely be a very efficient automatic farm tucked away in a corner of the map.  Melons are popular since it is easy to build a farm which will keep producing and harvesting them without intervention.  If a large one of these is built and left to run, it will eventually create enough pieces of harvested melon to bog down the server.  New memory fixes make this more difficult, but it can still be done.

As to detecting it?  I don't know.  There might be a method, but I don't believe that it's in wide use.  Even if we're giving the mod /ban powers to deal with this, it will still rely on the griefer announcing himself, which many do and will still likely require a restart from a pre-saved time before the trap went off and an undo of the griefer's work.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ex-Gooserider on May 22, 2012, 01:15:11 am
Just what occurred to me as a possible solution to make death painful, but also make doing another player in risky enough to be a disincentive to doing it w/o good cause...

ex-Gooserider

Except we're trying to simulate AnCap society in the real world, not in a perfect world where murderers are frozen in place for half an hour.
True, and the question to me is how to compensate for the differences between the real world and the game world...  To me the "freeze time" (and I'm not insistent on the 30 minute number) allows other players a chance to respond, and discourages killing sprees.  It will also act to deter random / spur of the moment killings by making it a "high risk" activity. - Do I want this guy dead bad enough to be willing to chance his buddies response?

The "time out" for those killed (and again I'm not stuck on the time) is an effort to balance the idea that players might want to keep playing in a game, and the fact that real world deaths are permanent...

The game world can never be a perfect simulation of the real world, the question is how to make things work close enough for the simulation to be reasonably good - this seemed like a compromise between giving everyone /ban power, and having instant resurrection making death a meaningless event...

Quote
Default behaviour is to name the deceased, the cause, and if there is one, the killer.

This seems to be more than sufficient. If we want to simulate real life a little more closely, we could remove the killer notification, Or we can leave it in to help nip killing sprees in the bud. Personally, I'd rather leave it in, so people could use the chat to hash out what happened.
Basic idea, I'm assuming the "public safety committee" would be doing it's thing in chat...

ex-Gooserider
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ttk2 on May 24, 2012, 09:51:51 am
We have already created an An-Cap Minecraft server, then we decided to make it bigger. Meet Civcraft http://i.imgur.com/AYZTj.png (http://i.imgur.com/AYZTj.png)


I am the server owner and its sole administrator. We have a community of nearly 1000 people, with the server often reaching its player cap of 100 for hours on end. This started months ago with AnCapMinecraft a community of only an-caps running on a basic no mod minecraft build out of my kitchen. But it quickly out grew that server, and our ambitions quickly outgrew what was already available. We had a dream of a minecraft server not just for An-Caps but for all stripes of political extremists, as we started thinking about it we encountered the same problems you have been discussing here (its actually interesting to see the other solutions you guys come up with) so we created custom mods specifically to fit the purpose of our experiment. First came PrisonPearl, its a method used to allow players to 'ban' other players. You simply kill a player with a Ender Pearl in your hotbar and then that player is trapped in the end until the pearl they are tied to is lost or destroyed. At first we had a mod that allowed you to physically imprison a player, but we find minecraft would always have another way for those players to glitch out of their prison with minimal to no difficulty, hence PrisonPearl. Second was Citadel, a protection mod that allows you to reinforce blocks consuming resources proportional to the level of protection.  A block reinforced with diamond will resist 1800 breaks, iron 250, stone 25. After the mods we needed a server, thanks to donations (for which the players did not receive anything but an improved server) we bough a server machine with dual Xeon 3.0 ghz quads, 32 gigs of ram and an ssd for the 12 gig pregenerated map file combined with an optmized build of bukkit plus hours of other optimizations to prevent any player from creating too much lag. Then we advertised to most 'extremist' political groups, we have a libertarian city, a couple of Ancap cities, libertarian socialist communes, and countless other communities that I may not even know about. 

We decided against tekkit because custom clients and custom server builds where a both a pain to operate and difficult to gain a player base. We hope that with the advent of the mojang/bukkit merger we can increase our player count (dreaming of 500-1000 players) and create mods like tekkit without the need for client side modifications. I could spend weeks writing about the economics, the conflict, the stories of victory, defeat, building, and trade and i would still never run out.


Your invited to join us at our Ancap city its chords are 4275 -5467, deep underwater AnCapitsan/Rapture/The city of many names is the safest on the server behind the Libertarian metropolis of Columbia.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: myrkul999 on May 24, 2012, 10:15:17 am
This is why I love the market. Anything that can be done, probably already is. I know where I'll be playing minecraft if/when I buy the full version.

So, hypothesis proven, AnCap is preferable. Now can we get down to the business of making it happen?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 25, 2012, 02:12:25 am
First came PrisonPearl, its a method used to allow players to 'ban' other players. You simply kill a player with a Ender Pearl in your hotbar and then that player is trapped in the end until the pearl they are tied to is lost or destroyed. At first we had a mod that allowed you to physically imprison a player, but we find minecraft would always have another way for those players to glitch out of their prison with minimal to no difficulty, hence PrisonPearl. Second was Citadel, a protection mod that allows you to reinforce blocks consuming resources proportional to the level of protection.  A block reinforced with diamond will resist 1800 breaks, iron 250, stone 25.

Huh.

What do you do when someone uses an Ender Pearl to imprison you personally?  Or your friends and family, the players who have been online the longest, your donors, etc?  Or when one of your players pisses off a member of a guild from Battlefield or World of Warcraft or League of Legends or something, and the ones with Minecraft accounts swarm your server?

I mean, just... teething troubles in general, you know?  Something bad happens that you didn't foresee or couldn't have prevented for whatever reason.  So you go "Oh, well, obviously that didn't count.  It was against the rules!  We'll just undo the changes the griefers made and pretend it didn't happen."

Right?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ttk2 on May 25, 2012, 07:27:58 am
Hell no, thats why its totally reversible. Once you are imprisoned you can just type /pplocate and it will give you the location and world of your pearl (if it cant find a world position for it you are freed, no logging out with the pearl!) after that you can go and find it and destroy it to free the imprisoned player. Giefers sometimes imprison as many as 10 players during a raid, but they are almost all free by morning thanks to the world of other players. Using citadel to create reinforced vaults (diamond reinforced obsidian must be broken 1800 times, thats quite while to mine through, put a chest with a peal inside of that to help prevent escape) is how griefers are kept in, but if a group of players with the resources wants to free another player they can all work on the reinforced blocks at the same time and cut the time down by orders of magnitude, a group of 20 can break a prison in minutes as opposed to hours upon hours for an individual.

The server was in quite the sate for a while, raids every night cities in ruins. But I held fast to non-interference, regular players had every advantage except organization, except the societal structure they needed to defend themselves proper. To save them from having to create that most essential part of society would defeat the point, so we freed our friends without admin powers and kept up the fight and now, we have won. Its hardly 2 hours before most griefers are imprisoned and held for trial, and less than that before those illegitimately imprisoned are freed. The players stepped up to the task, they managed to create order and stop violence. I have people complaining that the world is now too peaceful!


I don't interfere, even with I or my friends are imprisoned, even when I know there is a band of griefers heading for a city, I work very hard to remain neutral, and it really means i dont play too much anymore, but now I am pretty confident that shaking this order would be difficult. When players join they are spread far and wide, resources are difficult to acquire, so if a group of new grifers join it would take them hours to reach a city, at which point they would not stand a chance against the enforcers wearing such powerful enchanted armor that its worth more than the total income most players make in their entire Minecraft game, one or two of the incredibly rich citizens of the AnCap city have enough resources to single handheldly defeat a band of 20+ griefers.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: mellyrn on May 25, 2012, 09:36:44 am
When the corset comes off, the trunk muscles are weak -- but they are not inherently weak.  Let the person re-develop and they'll be fine.

All the players in minecraft, AnCap or otherwise, are living their real lives under the controls of one state or another.  Like kids on spring break, when the controls are relaxed they get crazy drunk and smash things, but if the controls are left off (bravo, ttk2!), they'll settle down (mostly).

I'd be interested in knowing more about the individual griefers -- what percent are committed troublemakers and what percent are the spring-break basket cases who will eventually catch on?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ttk2 on May 25, 2012, 12:51:39 pm
Many griefers simply get imprisoned permatley. but I think thats more because a large number of griefers are dedicated to the job, going from server to server trying to get banned as fast as possible. A major reason why so many servers have to hide behind whitelists. What I have been plesently supprised by is the portion of griefers, even career griefers for whom the normal play style is just to grief until banned pay restitution and go free to be productive members of society (although with somewhat marred reputations) as the average time to imprisonment goes down more people show up for trials. All trials even ones in semi-satist cities like Columbia are handled by arbitrators selected by reputation and lack of involvement with the affected parties. The AnCaps are the most vocal about ensuring fair and speedy trials for prisoners and often put out ultimatums of action when a player has been imprisoned without a trial.

Most of all people seem attracted to the freedom of the server, with the order and complexity of a heavily regulated role play server but the freedom and space of the usually chaotic anarchy server. I have people tell me every day that they bought minecraft just to play here and long time players that say the server is radically different and better than any other server they have ever plaid on.

Mumble is the voice chat program we all use to hang out and talk, its free and I host a server for it on the same machine as the minecraft server. The community we have built there is incredible, with a large number of regular an caps and with the announcement of civcraft other ideologies or those without ideology. Someone in the an cap channel said "well that's the social contract right?" We all started talking an cap out with him. If you put an caps together you get some crazy business plans and a huge amount of skill. Next weekend we intend to get started on a project to hopefully turn every part of internet service into commoditie that anyone can buy and sell.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 28, 2012, 05:08:36 am
Interesting.

What happens when the regulars start harassing newbies?  If you look at diamonds as Money and XP as... well, Experience, a society where the rich and well-connected have a huge built-in advantage over penniless noobs is frankly nothing new or innovative.  

How does the community tend to react when an established player gets bored and starts sniping the spawn area, imprisoning first-time players for sport and stashing their pearls in one of the established supervaults?  Or, for that matter, what do you do when an established player's account or client gets compromised?  (I figure it's bound to happen every once in a while.)  Tactically speaking, they're both the same scenario: the griefer suddenly is the one with seniority and resources.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ttk2 on May 28, 2012, 08:08:41 am
Well there is no spawn, so sniping it is impossible (players spawn in random locations around the map) but in general the more powerful players are secure enough not to get hacked and when they wish to leave do so quietly. If a powerful player did go rouge they would be imprisoned soon, we have had griefers that thanks to the stolen resources have been nearly on par with powerful players before so its not as if it would be a new level of challenge. As for harrasing newbs that depends on the ideology and individuals involved sometimes they operate with near impunity sometimes it is not tolerated in the slightest.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: WarpZone on May 28, 2012, 02:23:34 pm
As for harrasing newbs that depends on the ideology and individuals involved sometimes they operate with near impunity sometimes it is not tolerated in the slightest.

The ideology of the newb or the ideology of the attacker?
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: ttk2 on May 30, 2012, 07:25:18 am
Both, I can pull up specific cases but we have such a wide population that I can only generalize at this point. A lot of the statist Libertarians in columbia are pro indefinite imprisonment and will pearl someone at the slightest issue leaving them to rot in the end.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: Jeoshua on June 01, 2012, 02:58:52 pm
On the ban mechanics:

I have played a good number of retail online games that have a "voting" system.  I know that's injecting a bit of democracy into the situation, but then again so does any real system in which people are in control.  The idea behind it is that when a serious matter (map switch, banning, reset, etc) is called by one player, the other players have the ability to respond to it by voting yay or nay against it.  Some games allow people to make decisions about OTHER situation, so for example, a player requesting a map change to one map may find that the other players want a map change, too... to a different map than the original requester wanted.

That means, for the banning mechanics, that when someone types "/ban Bob", the rest of the players are allowed to vote yay, or nay.  There would be no limitations to the amount of times a person could request a ban.  If nobody overrides the vote, the person is banned.

What this simulates is a committee being called about ostracising a problematic member.  Any time someone would be removed from the collective, others would have the ability to weigh in on the matter if they so choosed.  A person routinely calling for bans of other members might be themselves viewed as a problem, and a separate committee could be called to ban them.

I think it would work nicely.

---

After reading a bit more of the situation on the server right now, it actually seems like it might be fun.  It's basically a society against the barbarians.
Title: Re: How to Simulate an Anarcho-Capitalism using Minecraft!
Post by: abookwyrm on June 01, 2012, 06:34:02 pm
On the whole issue of making player death permanent: Why not simply start a Hardcore server? If you die, you get banned from the server. Simple. Everyone has the ability to kill everyone else, and everyone has the ability to die. There are ways to set the length of the ban, ranging from hours all the way to permanent banning. People joining the server will instantly know that dying in anyway has consequences because it's a Hardcore server. You don't have to muck around with giving everyone the /ban ability, or be concerned about it being 'god like power' instead of just a deadly weapon.