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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: Bob G on November 08, 2011, 02:27:32 am

Title: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 08, 2011, 02:27:32 am
Didn't see *that* coming!
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Azure Priest on November 08, 2011, 07:12:15 am
... The HELL?!! Wasn't Anton Sherwood very much ALIVE the last time we saw him? If he was indeed murdered, I'd put "Nappy" at the top of the list of suspects. "Nappy" DOES have an axe to grind (or rather a sword to sharpen) concerning Sv. Sherwood.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Anton Sherwood on November 08, 2011, 11:40:09 am
I saw it coming.  (So why didn't I duck?)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: quadibloc on November 08, 2011, 02:03:00 pm
I'm suitably astonished by this turn of events, even though we were warned a situation of this nature was upcoming. Presumably, Emily hppened on the duel without realizing that it was a duel.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 08, 2011, 04:36:21 pm
... The HELL?!! Wasn't Anton Sherwood very much ALIVE the last time we saw him? If he was indeed murdered, I'd put "Nappy" at the top of the list of suspects. "Nappy" DOES have an axe to grind (or rather a sword to sharpen) concerning Sv. Sherwood.

Emily Rose has confessed to killing him, but not to murder. It might have been accidental. It might have been self-defense. We'll soon find out.

And why would Pierre be angry at Sv. Sherwood? He merely provided a venue for his 'affair of honor'. I'd think he'd be more PO'ed at cousin Guy for accepting the terms of the duel, not warning him, and making him a laughing stock. Of course, his marbles aren't wrapped too tightly, so . . .

I'm suitably astonished by this turn of events, even though we were warned a situation of this nature was upcoming. Presumably, Emily hppened on the duel without realizing that it was a duel.

Duel? What duel? There was no duel.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on November 08, 2011, 07:59:31 pm
I also find it odd that Sv. Rosenberg, likely being a witness, did not recluse himself.

I'm suitably astonished by this turn of events, even though we were warned a situation of this nature was upcoming. Presumably, Emily hppened on the duel without realizing that it was a duel.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 08, 2011, 09:46:11 pm
I also find it odd that Sv. Rosenberg, likely being a witness, did not recluse himself.

I wish more judges would recluse themselves.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: SandySandfort on November 09, 2011, 06:47:22 am
I also find it odd that Sv. Rosenberg, likely being a witness, did not recluse himself.

I wish more judges would recluse themselves.

Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider.  ::)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: mellyrn on November 09, 2011, 07:06:12 am
Quote
Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider. 

Sandy, I'm pretty sure Bob G knew that.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Azure Priest on November 09, 2011, 07:53:58 am
Quote
Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider. 

Sandy, I'm pretty sure Bob G knew that.

Now that's an even BETTER idea.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: SandySandfort on November 09, 2011, 09:22:11 am
Quote
Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider. 

Sandy, I'm pretty sure Bob G knew that.

Now that's an even BETTER idea.

Or maybe judges should be "re-clued," i.e., given a new clue.  ;)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: wdg3rd on November 09, 2011, 05:47:19 pm
Quote
Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider. 

Sandy, I'm pretty sure Bob G knew that.

Now that's an even BETTER idea.

Or maybe judges should be "re-clued," i.e., given a new clue.  ;)

With a handy-dandy clue-by-four.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 09, 2011, 10:35:37 pm
Quote
Gentlemen, the word is recuse [re-QuZ]; no "L." A recluse [WRECK-loose] is a hermit or a spider. 

Sandy, I'm pretty sure Bob G knew that.

 ;D
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Azure Priest on November 10, 2011, 08:49:57 am
Looks like she's claiming self defense, or to be precise, defense of a minor.

Pierre WAS angry at Sv Sherwood because Sv Sherwood was laying down rules of engagement that were humiliating (in his mind's eye) to him, and he took it personally.

Edit: When I first heard the duel would consist of blacksmith's hammers, I thought that they were going to be required to craft something, and then Pierre would have his goods taken away "for the greater good of humanity" while the other duelist would go by Ceres rules..

Oh well, it's Sandy's story after all.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Killydd on November 10, 2011, 11:18:12 am
Well, this is why you always need to tell your friends that yes, you do sometimes enjoy people beating you.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on November 10, 2011, 02:05:55 pm
Or maybe judges should be "re-clued," i.e., given a new clue.  ;)

Objection!  Assumes original clue, not in evidence.  ;D
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: SandySandfort on November 10, 2011, 03:11:32 pm
Or maybe judges should be "re-clued," i.e., given a new clue.  ;)

Objection!  Assumes original clue, not in evidence.  ;D

Too true. I was being generous.  ::)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 10, 2011, 06:20:14 pm
Pierre WAS angry at Sv Sherwood because Sv Sherwood was laying down rules of engagement that were humiliating (in his mind's eye) to him, and he took it personally.

Actually, it was our arbitrator Sv. Rosenberg who laid down the ground rules for the duel. Sv. Sherwood merely provided the venue.

Well, this is why you always need to tell your friends that yes, you do sometimes enjoy people beating you.

Or at least that you're taking instruction on use of the quarterstaff, possibly as partial compensation for your labor. (A half staff would probably be too large for Libby to wield adequately, much less a full staff.)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: knoodelhed on November 11, 2011, 04:27:21 am
A quarterstaff as I understand it is similar in size and concept to the Okinawan "Bo." Ideally about as long as shoulder- to head-high depending on the user.

Anyway, do I understand correctly that the "code of combat" (or other custom affecting protective actions on behalf of third parties) holding in the Belt did NOT require Emily to yell at Anton to "GET AWAY FROM THE GIRL!!" before drawing and firing?
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: macsnafu on November 11, 2011, 12:05:21 pm
A quarterstaff as I understand it is similar in size and concept to the Okinawan "Bo." Ideally about as long as shoulder- to head-high depending on the user.

Anyway, do I understand correctly that the "code of combat" (or other custom affecting protective actions on behalf of third parties) holding in the Belt did NOT require Emily to yell at Anton to "GET AWAY FROM THE GIRL!!" before drawing and firing?

That's part of the issue at stake.  Did she have enough information to assume a deadly response was required, or did she "jump the gun"?   ;)
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: SandySandfort on November 11, 2011, 06:58:41 pm
Actually, it was our arbitrator Sv. Rosenberg who laid down the ground rules for the duel. Sv. Sherwood merely provided the venue.

To be more precise, the seconds, Guy and Suki, decided the rules and Rosenberg was there to officiate.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: spudit on November 15, 2011, 06:26:51 pm
I don't get to catch up all that often these days but wasn't that quite a jump? I read from the end of the duel to today's strip and Huh? Last I heard Libby was out in space and Sherwood was running his forest.

Isn't this the reason for the newlywed's segements, spacers between arcs? Not my strip or my story, surely the Great Gawds of Ceres know best.

Thanks though for what I think is the first ever outside view of Ceres City.

My judgement of the case so far, she should have yelled something to stop the situation, not escalate it. That was the idea under ZAP, stopping aggression not punnishment.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: happycrow on November 16, 2011, 08:22:10 am
The "dominant" storyline here makes no sense in Cerean gravity.  Bamboo "branches" are small and generally very flexible -- why would they be snapping all the way down, rather than simply tending to drag and catch her?  A quarter-meter/sec acceleration isn't *nearly* enough for her to have actually been snapping them on the way down... in fact, even from way up, the first three or four she hit should have been sufficient to stop her acceleration almost entirely.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 16, 2011, 08:32:16 am
My judgement of the case so far, she should have yelled something to stop the situation, not escalate it. That was the idea under ZAP, stopping aggression not punnishment.

Emily interpreted Anton's moving his hand towards Libby's throat (to check for a pulse(?)) as an aggressive, perhaps lethal attack on an unconscious friend. Preventing this is in accordance with ZAP as I understand it. Libby may have a hypersensitivity regarding assaults on defenseless people due to her history. She's also, what, early- to mid- teens in age?

If the situation were actually as she perceived it to be her actions would probably have been justified. Because they were not, and because she didn't take precautions to assure herself that her perceptions were true (and did not, as you say, start her response with some less-lethal step such as yelling, "GET AWAY FROM THE GIRL!", she acted inappropriately. Why she did so does not matter, she is IMHO liable for reparations/restitution. The fact that she acted with intent to prevent rather than initiate aggression MAY be a mitigating factor in the type/amount of damages incurred.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: AUGuru on November 16, 2011, 08:36:00 am
Maybe the bamboo grows at a much lower density due t othe lower gravity? I used to harvest large bamboo that we used for building rafts and other structures in Boy Scouts, and while it looked identical to us, the 3 year old growths were much denser than the younger growth, indicating that it grows to a given height, then begins to grow denser.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: happycrow on November 16, 2011, 04:39:20 pm
Yeah, the trunks *definitely* get denser as they age.  The limbs, such as they are, however, remain really piddly affairs.  And if they grow less densely, then the story actually makes even *less* sense.  You wouldn't be hearing something that sounded like a beating, but rather a swishy-teary sort of sound as she went through it, and if she was falling at some sort of weird angle... bamboo bends....a full thirty seconds of fall in Cerean gravity still wouldn't get her up to an earth-equivalent speed, but would have given her more than enough time to grab at various bits as she was ....gradually floating faster... towards the ground.

I could be missing something, and it's as cut-and-dried as it's written so far, but Libby's testimony sounds fishy as hell to me, and I bet there's a reason why she's ducking out and trying not to be there in person.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on November 16, 2011, 04:50:59 pm
I could be missing something, and it's as cut-and-dried as it's written so far, but Libby's testimony sounds fishy as hell to me, and I bet there's a reason why she's ducking out and trying not to be there in person.

Interesting thought.  I don't see a path that would exonerate Emily, but Libby may certainly have been up to something.  Perhaps she wanted to establish a romantic relationship with Anton, and had feigned a "damsel in distress" situation.  The noise could have been artificially created by Libby (perhaps breaking stalks, rather than branches) and was intended to be as noisy as possible to get Anton's attention, and before she got there she pretended to be unconscious.  Anton saw her, then Emily saw them, and we join the testimony in progress.

If this is the case, then we might ask if Libby herself bears some of the responsibility and liability for Anton's death.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: happycrow on November 17, 2011, 09:13:56 am
I don't think she necessarily does -- it was clearly a wrongful shoot.  "Hey!  Get off her now!" followed by a meaningful muzzle movement, would have settled that easily enough.  But the Libby part bothers me quite a bit.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: macsnafu on November 17, 2011, 09:27:54 am
I don't think she necessarily does -- it was clearly a wrongful shoot.  "Hey!  Get off her now!" followed by a meaningful muzzle movement, would have settled that easily enough.  But the Libby part bothers me quite a bit.

Now that you guys mention it, Libby's actions do seem a tad off.  Maybe we're just reading too much into it, but hey, there's gotta be some mystery or suspense to the story, right?
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: wdg3rd on November 17, 2011, 09:45:14 am
I don't think she necessarily does -- it was clearly a wrongful shoot.  "Hey!  Get off her now!" followed by a meaningful muzzle movement, would have settled that easily enough.  But the Libby part bothers me quite a bit.

Now that you guys mention it, Libby's actions do seem a tad off.  Maybe we're just reading too much into it, but hey, there's gotta be some mystery or suspense to the story, right?


Without a certain amount of mystery and suspense, it's hardly a story, it's an anecdote.  Not that there isn't a place for anecdotes once in a while.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on November 17, 2011, 11:53:15 am
I don't think she necessarily does -- it was clearly a wrongful shoot.  "Hey!  Get off her now!" followed by a meaningful muzzle movement, would have settled that easily enough.  But the Libby part bothers me quite a bit.

Nor do I; the operational word here being "necessarily".  If, for example, she had deliberately staged the scene to make it appear to a third party that Anton had attacked her, I -- and I suspect most people -- would say she had culpability.  In this case there would be an intent to deceive a third party (or parties) into acting against Anton -- an act of fraud.  In the case I initially sketched out, there was also an intent to deceive, and that, too, could be considered an act of fraud.

The difference here is that one of these also includes a malicious intent; that certainly has some impact in many systems of justice (including those I systems I currently use).  However, there is also the question of unintended consequences, and whether or not those consequences should have been reasonably foreseen.  This is where my uncertainty primarily lies, if in fact Libby's actions were similar to the scenario I postulated.  Of course, neither of these has been addressed in the comic so far.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Bob G on November 18, 2011, 05:29:38 am
AHA! So Sv. Sherwood isn't *permanently* dead. That's terrific.

Fast work on the girls' part, getting him into an autodoc so quickly.

So, are autodocs as ubiquitous in EFT as AEDs are here/now?
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on November 18, 2011, 05:38:44 am
AHA! So Sv. Sherwood isn't *permanently* dead. That's terrific.
Fast work on the girls' part, getting him into an autodoc so quickly.
So, are autodocs as ubiquitous in EFT as AEDs are here/now?

I know it was an angle to the story, but with the Speaker for the Dead, etc I kinda feel cheated. So raid her trust fund* to pay for the auto-doc and hold off the hearing until Sv. Sherwood is around so Emily can face him.

Really, if someone accidentally shot me dead and stuffed me in an auto-doc, I'd prefer that legal issues were not resolved until I had been made whole and could testify myself in court.

*spoils from the "War of the Worlds" were set aside, right?
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on November 18, 2011, 07:04:50 am
I initially wondered about Guy, but now that all the facts are revealed, if I was in Sv. Sherwood's rejuvenate tank, I'd probably want an accountant to act as my "Speaker for Those who are in a Medically Induced Coma" too.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: mellyrn on November 18, 2011, 08:14:14 am
And WHO is the 1776 reenactress in panel 5?

Hmm . . . hoop skirts in really low gravity . . . if the hem drags, I wonder if you could get an air-pressure effect to help keep you to the floor . . . nah, if it did, it would also make it hard to move laterally, I think.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: SandySandfort on November 18, 2011, 08:31:37 am
So, are autodocs as ubiquitous in EFT as AEDs are here/now?

Most families have them on their seasteads, virtually all businesses too. Most modes of transit carry them for passengers.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: macsnafu on November 18, 2011, 09:12:12 am
I was wondering about the autodocs, and if they were going to be able to revive Sherwood.  It kind of mitigates the whole thing, knowing that what Emily did wasn't permanent.  However, the general idea and lesson is still there.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: quadibloc on November 18, 2011, 11:49:11 am
I am glad that he isn't dead as we understand it.

It was clear since at least strip 826 that Emily was in serious trouble, and that her error stemmed from how she was affected by the loss of her parents.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: NeitherRuleNorBeRuled on November 18, 2011, 01:22:19 pm
I know it was an angle to the story, but with the Speaker for the Dead, etc I kinda feel cheated. So raid her trust fund* to pay for the auto-doc and hold off the hearing until Sv. Sherwood is around so Emily can face him.
[...]
*spoils from the "War of the Worlds" were set aside, right?

I was wondering about that myself; it does seem rather odd that Emily would plead poverty.  Of course, a large chunk of the money may have gone to rebuild the family home for her; still, I would have expected there to be a sizable amount remaining.

She may, however, have spent the rest of the money quickly (I don't see why there would be a trust set up, although I am surprised she wouldn't be counseled to engage a sound investment adviser/money manager and accept that counsel).  It might also be that she has set something up herself, and doesn't consciously think about the resources she has.

Quote
Really, if someone accidentally shot me dead and stuffed me in an auto-doc, I'd prefer that legal issues were not resolved until I had been made whole and could testify myself in court.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Anton (and most other belters) have "homicide insurance" to ensure that if they are killed there is a party which will exact compensation as a deterrent (I would expect, too, that a family policy would be cheaper than a single policy, and that a family policy would trigger only if there were no one left to exact compensation personally).  That may kick in when the policyholder is temporarily dead for a minimum period before returning to sufficient mental capacity to act for him or herself.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: spudit on November 18, 2011, 03:08:30 pm
He's not dead, he's just mostly dead -- tricky concept.

So you cut someone's head off and regrow his body from the neck down like some root vegetable in a jar? If autodocs are so common and even something that serious just leaves a psychologocal trauma, "hurt" needs to be redefined as much as dead. If they can do that much a broken arm, a stab wound in the leg, all that nasty stuff becomes minor. 

Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: UncleRice on November 18, 2011, 07:11:34 pm
Since Sherwood isn't permanently dead and Libby's explanation of what happened is fishy due to the nature of the local gravity, I would definitely put the case on hold until Sherwood was on his feet again.
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: pakaran on November 20, 2011, 09:41:51 pm
It seems very likely that - especially since Emily is clearly struggling to justify her actions, even to herself - she was acting under a trauma trigger, and acted before taking time for conscious thought.  Does that make her in any sense less culpable than someone without that trigger?
Title: Re: Anton Sherwood (Fo)Rest in Peace
Post by: mellyrn on November 21, 2011, 07:30:23 am
Quote
It seems very likely that - especially since Emily is clearly struggling to justify her actions, even to herself - she was acting under a trauma trigger, and acted before taking time for conscious thought.  Does that make her in any sense less culpable than someone without that trigger?

I'd say it depends on what you want.  In a culture where transgression is handled in terms of restoring an errant member to harmony with her community, the trauma trigger would mean one thing; in a culture where transgression is to be punished, it would mean another.

Speaking as a parent of 3 successful adults, I never found punishment qua punishment to have any value.  If I were in Anton's shoes, I'd choose to get Emily help rather than penalize her -- and I can say so, having chosen pretty much that vs. a real-life traumatizing assault, to the extent real-life law permitted.