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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: SandySandfort on March 04, 2011, 08:32:00 pm

Title: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: SandySandfort on March 04, 2011, 08:32:00 pm
Voluntaryism on the Western Frontier

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.3803
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 04, 2011, 09:23:03 pm
Thanks,

You're preachin to the choir Rev S. but thanks, I saved the site. Lotsa good stuff there. Maybe, most of us, don't need adult supervision after all.

So, then,  Paint Your Wagon was a documentery? Historically correct anyway.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 04, 2011, 09:46:39 pm
This confirms what I have tried to explain before, on a small scale anarchistic lack of government control is an everyday thing. Imagine the 1984 world where it wasn't.

Look at all the small scale groups we form, garden clubs, PTAs, neighborhood watches, all on our own. I remember watching the Gay Pride parade down Colfax in Denver marveling at how unorganized the whole thing was. Surely they had a permit but that's it, the scale and the feel was way different from the government sponsored parades.

For that matter look at the private, just plain folks, responding to the Christchurch quake, strangers self organizing to dig people out, others loading bleeding strangers into their private cars. We seem to be hardwired for it.

It's the jump to national scale that blows so many minds. Impeded by the government at every level, I'm sure.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: Plane on March 04, 2011, 09:56:20 pm
http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist6/woolley.html


Ever hear of the San Francisco vigalance and their Bell?

San Francisco was exceptional in that it was a large community , most of the places that ran with little or no government were small wern't they?

I guess this idea will never fire the Public Imagination because noone will ever finance a movie titled "The Mild Mild West".

When there was statehood offered to a territory, was it ever resisted?
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: mellyrn on March 05, 2011, 07:06:40 am
Quote
I guess this idea will never fire the Public Imagination because noone will ever finance a movie titled "The Mild Mild West".

just sprayed coffee all over the monitor. . .



I wonder if anarchy hasn't scaled up because, as a community gets larger, the number of psychopaths goes up and, sooner or later, one of them is ambitious?  Maybe we need more consciousness of psychopathy, in addition to more awareness that, hey, we mostly are all adults here.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: quadibloc on March 05, 2011, 11:20:34 am
I wonder if anarchy hasn't scaled up
This brings an important point to mind.

Anarchy shouldn't need to scale. In an anarchist society, each town or village should be able to make its own decisions - and, so, if one small town has someone who makes a serious nuisance of themselves, they're likely to hang him, but that isn't going to offend the next town over which will decide they have to invade it to put a stop to such primitive behavior.

If the Taliban and coalition forces weren't fighting in Afghanistan, and if the Afghans weren't quite so socially conservative that they haven't ruled out initiating force to impose some of their traditions (even if to a lesser extent than the Taliban did)... that would be anarchy - villages handle their own problems.

Today's microprocessors, though, require fabs costing many billions of dollars to make them, since their cost increased with each new process generation. (That ought to slow down Moore's law pretty soon; Intel doesn't have enough of a market to spend an amount of money equal to the entire U.S. GDP.) So you have a choice - maintain modern technology, or don't guarantee that large businesses can guarantee the safety of their salesmen through the whole lower 48 and count on fairly uniform contract law, and so on.

Of course, compared to other countries, the U.S. is already highly diverse, since the individual states do make most of their own laws.

Right now, though, there is a big chunk of people in the U.S. who are convinced that if we let towns and villages and neighborhoods deal with serious crime in their own way, hanging men for committing rape - reasonable in itself - would be used against black people the same way the blasphemy laws in Pakistan are used against its Christian minority.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: terry_freeman on March 06, 2011, 08:58:56 am
The Mild Mild West wasn't all farms and cowpoke towns. They had big thriving cities, so the notion that "anarchy only works in itty bitty villages" is nothing but horsepucky.

Reload and recalibrate, quadibloc, you're obviously missing your targets by a country mile.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: mellyrn on March 06, 2011, 07:03:15 pm
Quote
Right now, though, there is a big chunk of people in the U.S. who are convinced that if we let towns and villages and neighborhoods deal with serious crime in their own way, hanging men for committing rape - reasonable in itself - would be used against black people . . .

. . . the way towns and villages in New England used to hang people for being the wrong sort of Christian.

But they stopped.  All on their own, without a "movement" about it, or a federal law from On High telling them to. 

Perhaps finding out why they stopped without being told, would be useful.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 07, 2011, 12:00:06 am
Thats the real bitch about vigilantes in the popular mind, they tend to get lumped in with the KKK and the lynch mob, Take the execution of Harris, he had it coming but to the typical UW serf, wasn't he lynched with a gun? No government had him whacked, unauthorized civilian killing, by their laws, is murder.

Here's a problem with capital punishment, if the government can take your life, do they actually "own" it all along?

caution, rehetorical question, no response is required.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: mellyrn on March 07, 2011, 06:14:09 am
I was playing hooky when my class got the anti-vigilante inoculation.  The only time I can honestly object to a vigilante is when he's got the wrong guy.  Which error the State also makes, apparently 5-10% of the time.  I have no stats on vigilante error rates.

A little early education, "When the wrong person is imprisoned for a crime, the right person is still at large", should help moderate the rush to "justice" in either case.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: J Thomas on March 07, 2011, 06:49:20 am
I was playing hooky when my class got the anti-vigilante inoculation.  The only time I can honestly object to a vigilante is when he's got the wrong guy.  Which error the State also makes, apparently 5-10% of the time.  I have no stats on vigilante error rates.

It's hard to get good data about this, in either case. If we truly knew who did it, we could get the right criminal for sure. Very often the law doesn't find anybody to prosecute, and every often lynch mobs don't lynch anybody. That's the other side of it, the times they know that they don't know who did it, or they know but it's somebody untouchable. When a judge thinks he knows, but later he or another judge thinks different, then probably at least one of them was wrong. Objective things like DNA evidence can say something definitively, but only when DNA matters to the crime.

When it seems open-and-shut then common sense says it's true and not some elaborate frame-up. But sometimes it is. When the evidence is clear to the police, it's more likely the police lied about it than somebody else did some careful frame-up, but what's the chance in either case? Common sense says to just believe the evidence.

Quote
A little early education, "When the wrong person is imprisoned for a crime, the right person is still at large", should help moderate the rush to "justice" in either case.

Not in the vigilante case. If one group of vigilantes wrongly kills somebody for a crime he didn't do, that does nothing to stop the same or another group of vigilantes from killing somebody else for the same crime.

And we usually think that punishing people for crimes is about punishing the particular person who did the particular crime, but maybe the actual purpose is to improve society. In that case it may do just as much good to punish somebody that society wants to punish. If a lynch mob kills the wrong man, but it kills somebody who isn't welcome in the community, they have accomplished something. Maybe they'll get the right man later.  I can't say I approve of this approach, but it could be more effective than waiting for definitive evidence.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: terry_freeman on March 07, 2011, 09:18:07 am
I have some advice. Read the research, including the not-so-wild-west paper.

Then post.

Doing it the other way around leads to having to retract stupid theories which have already been refuted.

Regarding vigilante committees: in Real Life, they arose when needed, were often led by people who had established good reputations, and were disbanded when "the people" objected. Since they were voluntary forms of organization and the "leaders" were not considered to be miraculously elected to godlike status, they tended to do more good than damage.

Hence, observers reported that the "mild mild west" was at least as safe as the government-heavy cities back East. However, folks back East, who had a vested interest in extending their power, carped about the "strange" customs in the West.

What else is new?

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

True story: just last night, I was asked "But do your kids do anything about their children's social development?"

To which I replied with a heavy dose of sarcasm "Yes, every third Tuesday, they unlock the chains and let my grandkids out of the closet to get some sun and talk to other kids."

Harumph!
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: macsnafu on March 07, 2011, 09:25:24 am

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

They bring up the "socialization" argument because they've already lost the quality education argument. It's a case of grasping for straws.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: J Thomas on March 07, 2011, 10:24:42 am

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

They bring up the "socialization" argument because they've already lost the quality education argument. It's a case of grasping for straws.

A few weeks ago I asked my oldest daughter if she'd like to be homeschooled, since she gave the impression she was bored in school a lot and she was objecting to doing a lot of the boring homework. She'd always refused before because she wanted to be with her friends, and she rejected the magnet school for the same reason.

"No, daddy! I'm not stupid!"
"Stupid? Of course not. What does that have to do with it?"
"All the kids say it's the stupidest kids who have to be homeschooled."
"Well, it doesn't have to be that way."
"If I was homeschooled all my friends would think I was stupid."

I hadn't noticed that particular line before.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 07, 2011, 10:38:50 am
Deepness ahead, sorta

Are we not all, ultimately home schooled?

Sandy's post at the beginning of this topic was a history lesson, surely the public schools could have spent several days on it, if allowed. Those of us who read it learned something. Those of us at home and not reading this on the boss' dime, you know who you are, got schooled at home.

Teach a kid the 3 Rs and critical thinking and right there can begin a lifetime of homeschooling. Wet chemistry, machine shop and a few others aside, given a book, enough math and a functioning brain, anything can be learned.

Or as someone wiser than me once said,

"Teach a man to start a fire and he'll be warm all night,
set him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life"

Maybe I shoulda stuck with the fishing one?
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 07, 2011, 11:04:36 am
On vigilante justice versus cop justice, an ugly truth.

How often do we hear of cops killing civilians and walking away. Read this one, a cop killed a half deaf Indian woodcarver wearing headphones with 4 shots at the distance of 3 yards because he had a knife, imagine that, and did not obey repeated verbal commands to drop it, imagine that too. From reports on the scene, he may never have even seen the cop.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013082467_shooting06m.html

Imagine one of us killing someone, a handicapped minority someone even, and walking away with a hand slap.

A private citizen in a vigilante situation has no special protections if he screws up, none. Big Boy time folks and it has to make a person thoughtful.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: macsnafu on March 07, 2011, 12:12:22 pm
Deepness ahead, sorta

Are we not all, ultimately home schooled?

The way I look at it, teaching is something that is done to somebody, but learning is always something you have to do yourself, whatever the environment.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:07:14 pm
I have some advice. Read the research, including the not-so-wild-west paper.

Then post.

Doing it the other way around leads to having to retract stupid theories which have already been refuted.

Regarding vigilante committees: in Real Life, they arose when needed, were often led by people who had established good reputations, and were disbanded when "the people" objected. Since they were voluntary forms of organization and the "leaders" were not considered to be miraculously elected to godlike status, they tended to do more good than damage.

Hence, observers reported that the "mild mild west" was at least as safe as the government-heavy cities back East. However, folks back East, who had a vested interest in extending their power, carped about the "strange" customs in the West.

What else is new?

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

True story: just last night, I was asked "But do your kids do anything about their children's social development?"

To which I replied with a heavy dose of sarcasm "Yes, every third Tuesday, they unlock the chains and let my grandkids out of the closet to get some sun and talk to other kids."

Harumph!


Terry,
I do have a question about home-schooled kids.  Since you appear to have some experience in the matter, I will ask you:
Because your kids/grandkids are home-schooled, what do they do for after school activities?  Do they play football, or other sports?  Are they as successful as other kids at making friends?

Do you or they feel intellectually superior or otherwise snobbish and arrogant toward other kids?

I just dont know, so I am asking.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:45:44 pm
Deepness ahead, sorta

Are we not all, ultimately home schooled?

Sandy's post at the beginning of this topic was a history lesson, surely the public schools could have spent several days on it, if allowed. Those of us who read it learned something. Those of us at home and not reading this on the boss' dime, you know who you are, got schooled at home.

Teach a kid the 3 Rs and critical thinking and right there can begin a lifetime of homeschooling. Wet chemistry, machine shop and a few others aside, given a book, enough math and a functioning brain, anything can be learned.

Or as someone wiser than me once said,

"Teach a man to start a fire and he'll be warm all night,
set him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life"

Maybe I shoulda stuck with the fishing one?


"got schooled"?  Honestly?

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

It is damned difficult.  Why?  Because Republicans are afraid that once kids understand the reality of life in the US today, they will use their junior science kit to make bombs.
Seriously.  I have read columns by dad's telling of their difficulty in finding, buying and not going to jail for terrorism-ing of science kits.

Its not just the kids who look at you funny when you announce your kid is home-schooled, but normal people do too.
Not the intelligentsia, nor the unions, nor the Fox Newsers, but normal people.  This idea had to come from somewhere, and, while I am sure it has been blown out of proportion by the media, someone, somewhere had to have a bad experience with a home-schooled kid.
Experiential knowledge trumps propaganda and Fox News every time.

But, of course, since the kids you know that are home-schooled are always perfect angels and proto-Einsteins, then they must all be that way, right?
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: ContraryGuy on March 07, 2011, 01:54:31 pm
On vigilante justice versus cop justice, an ugly truth.

How often do we hear of cops killing civilians and walking away. Read this one, a cop killed a half deaf Indian woodcarver wearing headphones with 4 shots at the distance of 3 yards because he had a knife, imagine that, and did not obey repeated verbal commands to drop it, imagine that too. From reports on the scene, he may never have even seen the cop.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013082467_shooting06m.html

Imagine one of us killing someone, a handicapped minority someone even, and walking away with a hand slap.

A private citizen in a vigilante situation has no special protections if he screws up, none. Big Boy time folks and it has to make a person thoughtful.

He wasnt wearing headphones, he was hard-of-hearing.  Seattle has had a rash of misbehaving cops lately.  With the amount of attacks on minorities, you'd think we were in the deep South instead of being the second most liberal city in America.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: macsnafu on March 07, 2011, 02:41:15 pm

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

What?  Has Radio Shack stopped selling kits?

Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: SandySandfort on March 07, 2011, 03:20:40 pm

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

What?  Has Radio Shack stopped selling kits?

Apparently not:

http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=28-178&Name=Electronic%20Labs%20and%20Kits&Reuse=N

For other crystal radio kits:

http://www.google.com/products?q=%22crystal+radio+kit%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=shop:1&source=og&sa=X&ei=nEp1TfHyNoT7lweArP2xCw&ved=0CB4QrQQ&biw=977&bih=444

Google "science kit" and get nearly a half million hits. Sounds as though CG didn't do his homework... as usual.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: GlennWatson on March 07, 2011, 04:42:18 pm
As a teacher I can assure you most teachers do not have a problem with homeschooling or privates schools.  Some kids do well, other not so well.  That is true in both systems.

The good news for us is that we still get your education tax dollars whether you send your kid to public school or not. 

Its like you are paying money to McDonalds but still eating at home.  Its sucks for you but the system makes out like bandits.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: Brugle on March 07, 2011, 05:04:15 pm
Re: vigilantes

A few years ago I read 1 or 2 books and several academic papers on various vigilantes.  I was surprised to read how scrupulous the vigilantes were to not punish innocent people.  In one incident in Montana, some people (traveling separately) strongly suspected of murder and robbery were apprehended, and were given a chance to explain themselves (after being warned of the seriousness).  Some were hanged (after confessing or telling obvious lies), but one was released.  The released man told an improbable story that nobody believed, but they didn't have firm proof that he had lied.

I'd expect that some vigilantes were less scrupulous than the ones I read about.  Some might even had been as bad as the Hollywood depiction of vigilantes, but I doubt that that was common.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 07, 2011, 05:09:45 pm
What I said was

Quote
Teach a kid the 3 Rs and critical thinking and right there can begin a lifetime of homeschooling. Wet chemistry, machine shop and a few others aside, given a book, enough math and a functioning brain, anything can be learned.

For some things you need a lab or a shop but not most.

Where do you get, got schooled?

The guy was only half deaf so the cop was justified, is that how it works CG? Four bullets at 10 feet, 3 meters, oops. No the point there was, once again in smaller words maybe. If a vigilante person or group killed by mistake, they'd fry. That cop got paid administrative leave, a vacation, he resigned, faces no criminal charges.

How it turned out.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/435580_shooting16.html

Turns out as long as it can't be proven that the cop acted out of malice, he automatically walks.  Remember Mr Policeman is your friend.

Do you see the connection CG, between this murder and the killing of the 4 other cops 40 or 50 miles away in Lakewood. The cops act like thugs, like 007 they have a license to kill and for some reason people don't like them. Not that I am defending the Lakewood shooter, some cop may have earned his hatred but not those strangers. I don't even sympathize, but I do understand it.

Looks like Williams was a Canadian national, maybe the Mounties will scoop up former officer Birk but I doubt it. I too can take things out of context, as in Pigs is Pigs.

Added, I guess bottom line ZAP does not apply to the police. God help us all.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: quadibloc on March 08, 2011, 12:42:23 am
If a vigilante person or group killed by mistake, they'd fry. That cop got paid administrative leave, a vacation, he resigned, faces no criminal charges.
It used to be that cops didn't act like that. Without a definite reason to believe that, in the first place, the woodcarver was threatening him with the knife, a policeman would not have begun the apparent confrontation by telling him to drop the knife.

He would have first quietly watched and seen, "oh, that guy's a woodcarver".

But after that first step, everything else that happened was automatic. When there is a high level of violence, that police are often attacked by people with knives, they have to operate under rules of engagement that don't require them to expose themselves to any risk. Because it's a job they do day in and day out - and so there are a lot of days to get through without being killed to pick up your pension.

I agree that an innocent person has died, and so there should be blood shed for blood.

But perhaps it's the people in jail for attacking police officers with knives who should be taken out and shot, instead of that police officer being punished. Because they created the situation in which this kind of thing happens.

Basically, the problem is that the War on Drugs hasn't been won yet. The government says, don't use cocaine, heroin, or marijuana, and for some incredible reason, some people don't listen. So there is violence in some areas of town, instead of everyplace being quiet, peaceful, and law-abiding. If there was hardly ever any crime, police would not be operating on a hair-trigger level, the problem would instead be that they might lose their alertness.

Basically, then, the problem is that the citizens of places like Los Angeles and Manhattan aren't like the citizens of, say, the fictional Mayberry - so law enforcement is also different, because the situation is different. Determine where the discrepancy lies, and correct the deviations from the desired prototype - once the situation conforms, the appropriate type of law-enforcement activity will also conform.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: Bob G on March 08, 2011, 01:58:00 am
But perhaps it's the people in jail for attacking police officers with knives who should be taken out and shot, instead of that police officer being punished. Because they created the situation in which this kind of thing happens.

Basically, the problem is that the War on Drugs hasn't been won yet. The government says, don't use cocaine, heroin, or marijuana, and for some incredible reason, some people don't listen. So there is violence in some areas of town, instead of everyplace being quiet, peaceful, and law-abiding. If there was hardly ever any crime, police would not be operating on a hair-trigger level, the problem would instead be that they might lose their alertness.

So by your own analysis, government "created the situation in which this kind of thing happens." The government, in starting the War on (Some) Drugs (which is actually a war on the freedoms of their citizens) is initiating force. The government tells its citizens what they can or cannot do to their own bodies, and when those citizens (rightly) tell the government to get stuffed it reacts as all frustrated bullies do. Also, by forcing the illicit drug trade into the black market, it creates all the ancillary criminal activity that accompanies that as well.

So, should we take Tricky Dick Nixon out and shoot him since it was his executive order that shaped our current version of TWoD? Oops, too late. Well then, how about Bill Bennett and Barry McCaffrey?

Note to lurking authorities: In case you don't get it, I am *not* advocating assaults on government officials former or current, I am attempting an argument reductio ad absurdam (look it up).
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: sam on March 08, 2011, 04:39:05 am
So by your own analysis, government "created the situation in which this kind of thing happens." The government, in starting the War on (Some) Drugs (which is actually a war on the freedoms of their citizens) is initiating force.

If the government declares war on X, it should be unsurprised that something similar to war ensues.

Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: J Thomas on March 08, 2011, 05:58:14 am
....

I have found that people here don't like it when I am too sarcastic.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: terry_freeman on March 08, 2011, 08:06:21 am

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

They bring up the "socialization" argument because they've already lost the quality education argument. It's a case of grasping for straws.

A few weeks ago I asked my oldest daughter if she'd like to be homeschooled, since she gave the impression she was bored in school a lot and she was objecting to doing a lot of the boring homework. She'd always refused before because she wanted to be with her friends, and she rejected the magnet school for the same reason.

"No, daddy! I'm not stupid!"
"Stupid? Of course not. What does that have to do with it?"
"All the kids say it's the stupidest kids who have to be homeschooled."
"Well, it doesn't have to be that way."
"If I was homeschooled all my friends would think I was stupid."

I hadn't noticed that particular line before.


New one on me! Whenever I mention that home schoolers score 30 percentile points above their peers, I'm told that this is due to self-selection - only the brightest students are home-schooled, apparently.

Truth is a little more complex. Some of the brightest do leave, because the schools simply cannot keep up. If you are mathematically gifted, it is torture to be "learning" single-digit and double-digit multiplication for months when you're already far past that point. Others leave because they're not getting the personal attention needed to keep up - they got lost somewhere and "didn't get" something important, and now they're struggling to keep up when they don't know the basic rules of the game.
   
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: mellyrn on March 08, 2011, 08:11:04 am
About homeschooled kids and "socialization":

Here's a question for ya:  do hearing children of deaf parents learn to talk by watching TV?

As a matter of fact, they don't.  If they don't see actual live adults talking, and get no chance to interact verbally, they won't learn to talk.

Do you seriously think it works any better for behavior?

Formal schooling constitutes institutionalized abandonment:  a bunch of age-mates, all equally ignorant, are thrown in together and told about correct behavior but very rarely get a chance even to see it, because in the institution, when two or more adults interact, there is generally something wrong.  And then they (the kids) are expected to act right.  They are cast out from real interaction -- which is how we learn how to be human -- and are abandoned to mere instruction.

Homeschooled kids, otoh, get to not only watch adults go about acting like adults, they also get to interact with adults:  their own parents, of course, but also all the adults their parents interact with.  They also get lots of opportunity to practice.  They get included by their community, not segregated away from it -- and thereby learn what their community wants & expects.

Quote
Its not just the kids who look at you funny when you announce your kid is home-schooled, but normal people do too.
Not the intelligentsia, nor the unions, nor the Fox Newsers, but normal people.  This idea had to come from somewhere, and, while I am sure it has been blown out of proportion by the media, someone, somewhere had to have a bad experience with a home-schooled kid.

In this society, "normal" people have themselves been institutionally-schooled; of course they're going to think homeschooling is weird.  No need for a bad experience -- "normal" people look at you funny when you announce that you're gay, or interested in medieval science, or if you'd rather go pony-trekking across Iceland than casino-hopping in Las Vegas.  Is that because they've had bad experiences with gays or Oresme nerds or pony treks -- or simply no experience?

Homeschooled kids have, at minimum, waaay more experience practicing their society's behaviors than any institutionally-schooled kid, so they typically come across as mature for their ages.  Still, I'm sure that some parents, themselves badly damaged, will not teach well.  If that invalidates home schooling as a process, then institutional schooling must have failed long since given how many institutionally-certified "teachers" are inept -- if not outright abusive.

Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: terry_freeman on March 08, 2011, 08:26:56 am
I have some advice. Read the research, including the not-so-wild-west paper.

Then post.

Doing it the other way around leads to having to retract stupid theories which have already been refuted.

Regarding vigilante committees: in Real Life, they arose when needed, were often led by people who had established good reputations, and were disbanded when "the people" objected. Since they were voluntary forms of organization and the "leaders" were not considered to be miraculously elected to godlike status, they tended to do more good than damage.

Hence, observers reported that the "mild mild west" was at least as safe as the government-heavy cities back East. However, folks back East, who had a vested interest in extending their power, carped about the "strange" customs in the West.

What else is new?

Today, government-fed schoolmarms carp about the "lack of socialization" among home-schooled kids. Hoplophobes claim that private citizens with guns are a terrible danger to themselves and others.

True story: just last night, I was asked "But do your kids do anything about their children's social development?"

To which I replied with a heavy dose of sarcasm "Yes, every third Tuesday, they unlock the chains and let my grandkids out of the closet to get some sun and talk to other kids."

Harumph!


Terry,
I do have a question about home-schooled kids.  Since you appear to have some experience in the matter, I will ask you:
Because your kids/grandkids are home-schooled, what do they do for after school activities?  Do they play football, or other sports?  Are they as successful as other kids at making friends?

Do you or they feel intellectually superior or otherwise snobbish and arrogant toward other kids?

I just dont know, so I am asking.

Home-schooled kids have _more_ time for socialization than others; they are not locked in a box for six hours per day. Think about the implications of being able to teach more in less time; compressing that six hours into one or two, and having lots of extra time per day.

There are recluses everywhere, both home-schooled and not; these are atypical.

Home-schooled kids can be as athletic as they want to be, and the number of ways are as numerous as the imaginations of the people involved. Anybody who is home-schooling tends to be on the high end of the creativity scale; instead of sitting around asking somebody else to fix their problems, they tend to look for solutions.

Put on your thinking hat, CG. What would you do? Assume that you actually have neighbors, like most home-schooled kids do. Would you close the blinds and pretend the neighbors don't exist? Probably not. Would you say hello, introduce yourself, and ask to join in with the neighborhood games? Invite them over to play? This is ordinary behavior for kids anywhere - why should home-schoolers differ?

There are many physical activities which don't require formal school buildings. Informal sports teams of all sorts. Martial arts dojos. Ballet classes. Trips to the rock climbing / skateboarding emporium. Etc.

As for whether they are snobbish, yadda yadda. Bright children everywhere, in formal schools or not, learn that being snobbish tends to limit social opportunities. In formal schools, they may, however, find self-reinforcing cliques which encourage such silliness.

The advantage of home-schoolers is that they do not live in boxes, neither in real terms nor metaphorically speaking. Schools, as they are organized today, stuff children into arbitrary boxes. You will spend the next six hours - a box of time - stuffed into the physical box of your classroom. You will be boxed in with children within a precise chronological box, plus or minus so many months. Every 45 minutes, you will move from one mental box ("math") to another mental box ("art") and so forth through the day. You will engage in physical activity as and when we permit; another box. You will stuff your mind into a tiny little box to fit the tiny little box of educational system.

You will not learn negative numbers in first grade; you are not permitted to stretch the boundaries of the "first grade box."

Any half-way gifted child can easily outstrip the knowledge of his teachers, especially in the elementary years. In many, many cases, their teachers take this as an affront. Home-schooling parents, however, are delighted and take pride when their progeny excel; they can, after all, take credit for both nature and nurture. What's not to like? This is why Ivy League schools advertise in home-schooling magazines; they know that home-schooled children will be curious and independent learners. Past experience has borne this out.

The "what about socialization?" myth has been blown to smithereens by Real World data.
 

Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: terry_freeman on March 08, 2011, 08:37:41 am
As a teacher I can assure you most teachers do not have a problem with homeschooling or privates schools.  Some kids do well, other not so well.  That is true in both systems.

The good news for us is that we still get your education tax dollars whether you send your kid to public school or not. 

Its like you are paying money to McDonalds but still eating at home.  Its sucks for you but the system makes out like bandits.

That won't long remain the case, Glenn. When the schools are empty, they'll be shut down.

Home-schooling is growing at about 8% per year. By the rule of 72, that would be a doubling ~ every 9 years. Current market share is 4%. 8, 16, 32, 64 - four doublings in 36 years. Odds are that a political crisis will happen before then. ( The trend might slow down - but it also might speed up. )

In addition, free-market schooling is also making inroads. As people discover the negative impacts of school regulations and demand an honest free market, support for government schools is going to collapse. People will look at the parent-supported schools of India, China, and Africa ( see The Beautiful Tree by James Tooley ) and ask why we can't have something as good and as affordable here.

Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: SandySandfort on March 08, 2011, 09:24:16 am
For those of you with an honest interest in home education, you might check out my daughter's home schooling blog, The Homeschool Advocate:

     http://homeschooladvocate.org/

Christine was a victim of public school, also went to private school and has brilliant parents who taught her a lot at home. She have two daughters.

The eldest was taken out of public school where she was constantly subject to harassment by fellow students (because she was "too smart") and teachers/administrators, because she defended herself against bullies. Under home schooling, she flourished and quickly caught up to and surpassed her age group. She is now a self-sufficient young adult.

The younger child is bright and happy. Her school room is her home, including the vegetable garden and chicken coop, plus field trips throughout the community. She often has "play dates" with other home schooled kids. Hey, it's working.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 08, 2011, 10:41:44 am
This started as an illustration about how vigilanties need to be extremely careful because they have no special protections under the law, as its minions do.

I assume everyone who commented read the articles. The guy who was shot did not attack the cop. In fact the cop closed the distance with him. This was on a busy noisy street in broad daylight. The victim was drunk, I believe, and a hard drinking street person. He was well known in the area, no angel for sure, well maybe he is now, anyway alive he may have been no prize.  Still murder was commited and, once again out of context, the pigs are still more equal than the other animials.

What scares me most is that the cop walked away, civil court will strip him of everything, but he walked away without arrrest. It could have been anyone there dead with 4 rounds in him at 10 feet and that mad dog of a cop needed to be put away. This is the same state I live in, the same state law that protected him applies here. It frightens me. I don't hate cops, but despite the years of propaganda I don't automaticaly like or trust them.

I am done with the subject.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 08, 2011, 11:12:40 am
Home schooling brings high school dropouts to mind.

Terry, I believe it was, is correct about the brightest getting bored and leaving. Why waste 2 extra years in those boxes when you can take the GED in a day and it's 99% as good?

Pulling these inexact numbers from my backside, it is the kids with an IQ as recognized today below 90 amd above 120 who drop out. Is IQ another hot button subject like the A word? Oh Boy, hit the dirt, incoming!

I pulled very approximate numbers from the nether reigions to illustrate the fact that the kids who stay in school are in the middle fat part of the intellegence bell curve. They are also in the middIe of the behaviorial curve, we call that normal, the boxes fit.

I would like to see the highschool junior college line blur, if the kid can best be served by college level math he should be. The other end too, why force a natural mechanic to take math he doesn't need, want or like when his skills lie elsewhere. School funding as it is in the US today keeps them apart, a highschool money bucket, a college bucket, a voc school bucket. It's nothing we can fix here.

Socialization includes the Columbine situation. Throw strong and weak kids, mentally and physically, together with very limited supervision and you get a Lord of the Flies situation, seldom that bad but you do.

Socialization happens everywhere, many home schooled kids' families are regular church goers, plus scouts, sports and street corners.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: ContraryGuy on March 08, 2011, 11:29:03 am

As for the facilities that school building have, but homes have not; have you tried buying a crustal radio set, or a kids science set?

What?  Has Radio Shack stopped selling kits?

Apparently not:

http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=28-178&Name=Electronic%20Labs%20and%20Kits&Reuse=N

For other crystal radio kits:

http://www.google.com/products?q=%22crystal+radio+kit%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=shop:1&source=og&sa=X&ei=nEp1TfHyNoT7lweArP2xCw&ved=0CB4QrQQ&biw=977&bih=444

Google "science kit" and get nearly a half million hits. Sounds as though CG didn't do his homework... as usual.

Its not not doing homework, its a relief that "the government" has stopped intercepting shipments of "hazardous materials" for terrorism concerns.

Oh, a question for Sandy, since these kits are mail-order, will the post office deliver them?  I dont know how long Sandy has been out of the US, but the Post Office bans shipping any chemicals through the mail.
If the shipper uses Fed-Ex, and declares the honest contents of any science or chemistry sets, Fed-Ex will refuse the shipment.  Fed-Ex will not knowingly ship any container, even empty, that has chemical symbols printed on it.  Not even "dihydrogen monoxide".
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: spudit on March 08, 2011, 11:38:00 am
CG, Dude,

It just ain't about the postal orifice, where the mail comes out, any more.

Or FedEx

UPS delivers live amunition right to anyone's door, bulk epoxy right to mine, you can "mail order" stove butane canisters, lead acid batteries, lots of nasty stuff.

I use a PO box and almost no one will ship a package there.

Added, give it some thought, you are Acme Chemicals and you need to get something to somewhere or you don't get paid. FedEx won't move it, oh no, bankruptcy! No wait, someone else will, the business is saved!
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: macsnafu on March 08, 2011, 11:44:07 am
Its not not doing homework, its a relief that "the government" has stopped intercepting shipments of "hazardous materials" for terrorism concerns.

Oh, a question for Sandy, since these kits are mail-order, will the post office deliver them?  I dont know how long Sandy has been out of the US, but the Post Office bans shipping any chemicals through the mail.
If the shipper uses Fed-Ex, and declares the honest contents of any science or chemistry sets, Fed-Ex will refuse the shipment.  Fed-Ex will not knowingly ship any container, even empty, that has chemical symbols printed on it.  Not even "dihydrogen monoxide".

Oh, please!  Walk into Radio Shack in person and see what they have available.  Last time I was in one they still had kits on the shelves.  If not, they can order it for you.  It can be delivered to the store and then you go pick it up.
Besides, electronic kits don't come with "chemicals".  A chemical set would be something different--it's not the kind of thing Radio Shack goes in for.
Title: Re: MORE "WILD" WEST
Post by: Plane on March 08, 2011, 01:13:31 pm
http://www.mouser.com/CatalogRequest/Catalog.aspx

I like Mouser,  good fun kits,but digikey is better  if you are useing yor own design, or buying in quantity.

http://www.digikey.com/