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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: sams on October 21, 2010, 02:37:12 am

Title: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 21, 2010, 02:37:12 am
Hello guys I remember that when I frequented the now deceased Fr33agents website, people went all made at me suggesting that people should work their debts off, in some kind of indenture ... They almost kicked me out  ;D

Looks like our little lawyer don't want slavery, but she is not the same, many people will tell you that we are ''blabla civilized'' and we cannot resort to this and what about the poor and idiotic people who will get trapped in such things ?

My personal opinion ? You commit a crime, pay off the victim the way you guys agree to, being it sexual favour, labour or otherwise.

A I am being too extreme  ;D
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: DmL on October 21, 2010, 02:50:20 am
Well, I'm not a regular here, in fact I registered just to reply.  But I would say that you judge a civilization more by how their slaves are treated than by whether they have them.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on October 21, 2010, 04:49:09 am
I support slavery:  I oppose slavery on the basis of race, or slavery on the basis of being on the losing side of a war or raid, but slavery on the basis of being improvident, broke, and criminal sounds like a good solution.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Archonix on October 21, 2010, 05:05:52 am
Oddly enough, indentured servitude to pay off debts was the norm of slavery in most of greco-roman world and references to slavery in the bible, often used to justify later race-based slavery, were actually to this debt-payment indenture. In parts of Africa, the middle east and Arabia slavery was based primarily on conquest (and was usually accompanied by gelding of male slaves), which is where the late Roman empire got its idea from and where we later got our unfortunate dalliance with african slavery from in turn, but this sort of slavery can't be justified morally or even economically. It assumes that some people are only capable of being slaves and it depresses wages.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Roland on October 21, 2010, 06:50:53 am
Seems to me slavery is the logical product to an an-cap society - for the unscrupulous and powerful are not to be stopped. Sorry for all you idealistic anarchists out here, but you totally underestimate human psyche. Greed is the motor of kapitalism, and if no one is to stop the greedy ones, they will suck on their weaker (or more scrupulous) neighbors. I suppose this exactly was the way from unformalized clan and family structures to the installation of personal power over others in the ancient times...
And for the human psyche, people may be disgusted by such individuals, but they will not do anything until they feel themselves are in danger - but then it might be too late. Solidarity mostly doesn`t work, as for example the recent continuous downfall of the workers unions in Germany shows. For as proved by reality over and over again, the reaction of the have-nots to the have-alls is not to fight, but to try to take the same road. Even when there is a social revolution, it is not lead by the have-nots, but by "errant" have-alls.  Marx, Engels and their bunch are the best example.

For me the installation of slavery as a legal instrument of compensation and punishment for misdoers is the first signal that the belters' culture in this fiction is not free of this development, and in the long end there might be a new world order istalled. If our belters are lucky, they will be aware of the danger and gather control over this process, which means another experiment in shared power (e.g. democracy). Yet they might fail and some oligarchy of rich bad-asses might get installed...

I feel slave labour is a very proper method to punish mis-doers as well as to compensate for the loss of the victim. Yet the border to enforced wage-slavery is weak. To avoid misuse the controll over the slave-penitent should not be given to the receiver of the compensation, but stay in neutral hands. But this would mean some form of political organisation and community authorities.

Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Azure Priest on October 21, 2010, 07:14:53 am
The line between indentured servitude and slavery is very thin and often blurred, but a good rule of thumb is "indentured servants have rights, slaves have none because slaves are not people."

Indentured servitude for the purposes of paying off debts or in exchange for certain goods and services IS accepted practice world wide. Just look at the next time a big sports team "trades" one or more of its players. The players are compensated quite handsomely in exchange as part of their contract. Most employees are also indentured servants to some degree. Do you get to arbitrarily decide what hours you work or what days of the week? Do you arbitrarily decide WHERE you work? How much you are paid?

Freedom is always a balancing act between your desires and your obligations.

@ Roland, slavery and its ugly siblings happen far more frequently in communal, socialist, or feudal structures than in capitalist ones. You might want to put down your Marxist manifesto and look at the actual history of everywhere the "worker's paradise" has been tried. China, "you have the right to do what the government tells you at the rate the government decides you will be paid. If you give up that right, you can and will be run over by a tank." Soviet union, "you have the right to stay in absolute poverty while the politbureau dictates your life. If you try to abstain and leave, or even try to better yourselves, we can and will label you and your entire family 'traitor' hunt you down and kill you."

As for indentured servitude being used to punish criminals, it worked quite nicely in many places, including the US. Prison populations USED TO have to do "hard labor" as part of their sentences (road construction, making license plates, mining, working a farm, etc.). Now, in the name of "compassion," they don't do anything but spend X number of years sitting in a cell getting angrier and angrier at "the man" who wronged them as opposed to actually doing penance for their crimes. Not a very effective model is it?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on October 21, 2010, 08:11:04 am
@Roland, you have somehow managed to miss two important features of an AnCap society.

1) you may have more money, but you never have more rights.
2) you may have more money, but everyone has the right of self-defense.

So, if you harbor fantasies about capturing sex slaves, you face some serious problems. The first being that you cannot externalize security costs; you cannot force tax slaves to build your lavish den of iniquity and defend it against others.

The second problem is that your intended victims might violently object; you cannot depend upon the State to disarm them. In short, implementing your lurid fantasies would be a chancy business.

Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on October 21, 2010, 08:40:15 am
Oddly enough, indentured servitude to pay off debts was the norm of slavery in most of greco-roman world and references to slavery in the bible, often used to justify later race-based slavery, were actually to this debt-payment indenture.

Didn't Sparta have whole populations of conquered hereditary slaves? And wasn't slavery of conquered people pretty common across Greece? There was an invasion of Sicily where the Athenians lost and all the surviving soldiers were enslaved. There was Melos where they killed the men and enslaved the women and children. Lots of examples of that sort of thing. And they bought a lot of slaves from thrace and points east. Some of them were sold as children by destitute parents, some were just captured and enslaved. Did the greeks free them when they had by some sort of reckoning paid off their final price?

Biblical stories look mixed too. When the Israelites first conquered Canaan they took slaves, and some of the tribes living there tricked them into accepting them as slaves rather than kill them.

There are written injunctions among the laws not to enslave foreigners who visit Israel just because they are foreigners in Israel, not without some good reason. I don't recall any punishment listed for people who do it, the rule just says not to. Is it plausible that this might have happened a lot? The claim was that every 50 years all the slaves were supposed to be freed. If that was followed it would imply that the amount of credit offered to debtors would drop each year until the 50th year. When you can be enslaved for less than one year, you are worth much less than when you can go for 50 years if you live that long. But I don't know whether that custom was ever actually practiced. And anyway it would be only for Israelites who were enslaved for debts, and not for foreign slaves captured by the army or bought from foreigners.

Quote
In parts of Africa, the middle east and Arabia slavery was based primarily on conquest (and was usually accompanied by gelding of male slaves), which is where the late Roman empire got its idea from and where we later got our unfortunate dalliance with african slavery from in turn, but this sort of slavery can't be justified morally or even economically. It assumes that some people are only capable of being slaves and it depresses wages.

I understand that the classical justification was that slavery was kinder than genocide, which was the alternative.

Economically? If two people agree on a price, then they both think they are better off. The old slaveowner prefers the money and the new slaveowner prefers the item sold. If they each think they are better off economically after the trade, who are you to disagree?

Whether or not you are capable of more than being a slave, the question at hand is whether you will make a capable slave. If you think you're capable of more than that you can try to make a deal with you master. Perhaps like, "I can make you more money if I behave like a free man than as a slave. I would do things to make money that you can't make me do with whips. So set a price, and let me work for it, and when I have brought you enough money then let me buy myself with it." The master might agree. Or the master might try to whip you until you agree to take initiative and make lots of money to keep from being whipped more. Or something else. The master gets a free choice whether to take you up on it, like any other monopolist.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: macsnafu on October 21, 2010, 08:48:37 am
It seems to me that there's quite a difference between working off a debt and outright slavery.   Human nature won't change in an Ancap society, but there won't be a strong, coercive power base like government that has the "legitmacy" of most people.

People like Roland assume that without a strong government to keep things under control, the rich become the most powerful force in society and are unstoppable. This overlooks the obvious fact that what the rich do now is utilize the power of the government to get their way, and without that government power, it becomes more costly for the rich to screw over other people, which affects their bottom line.  Without monopolies, subsidies, and other government privileges, the rich can only become rich the old-fashioned way: by providing a product or service that lots of people want and are willing to pay for (or by inheriting it).  People who become rich this way have less interest in controlling than in serving.

Thus, there's plenty of reason to believe that slavery is actually less likely in Ancap than in current society.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on October 21, 2010, 09:27:50 am
this sort of slavery can't be justified morally or even economically. It assumes that some people are only capable of being slaves and it depresses wages.

This is not the reason that chattel slavery does not work. Many years ago, I edited a small libertarian self-liberation magazine called Freedom Today. One day, I was thinking about how much of the product of a person's labor was eaten up by taxes. We know that it can be as high as half. So I asked one of the writers to do some research about slavery and how much of what slaves produced, they actually consumed and how much went to the master. The answer was enlightening. In every culture and era he researched, the answer was that slaves consumed about 90% of what they produced. Thus their "tax" to the master was only about 10%.

Why might this be the case? I put it down to incentive structures. The free man is motivated to produce quantity and quality for his customers or employers. Why? Because he becomes more valuable to them and, thus, will make more for himself and his family.

Slaves live in a socialist society. Unless the are obvious layabouts, they get the same reward (food, clothing, housing) no matter how hard they work. So there is an incentive only to look productive, but not necessarily to be productive. So malingering becomes an art. Take as much as you can from the system and contribute as little as possible.

As a result, the "free" labor of slaves is a lot more costly than the salaries paid to free men. Now the incentive structure for indentured servants has a much different. If the servant is working off a some-certain and is paying it off on the basis of what he is producing, he is motivated to produce more, to get out of servitude faster. That sounds more like the incentive structure of free men and it is the model I am using in the strip. (Indenture based on time, not productivity is more like a slaves incentive structure and far more likely to increase malingering and to reduce productivity.)
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on October 21, 2010, 09:53:52 am
Coincidentally, this morning I was doing research for an upcoming EFT arc. I was researching a school in Colorado for servants (though they refer to it as "private service").  A friend of mine had attended and had become an estate manager for several multi-millionaires and one billionaire. She was under a five-year non-disclosure agreement, so could only tell about two of her first employers. One was the parents of the Baldwin boys and the other was Spielberg. (She told me the most amazing stories about the rich and famous.)

You would be astounded at what high-end estate managers, butlers, maids, nannies and chefs are paid. It is a very financially rewarding career. Which is interesting to me, becomes so many people think of private service as being a slave. It just ain't so. This is sad, because many of the people who think they are "too good" to be a "lowly servant" are making less money and getting fewer perks from the jobs they spend four years and countless tens of thousands of dollars to qualify for.  Anyway, if you are curious, here is the URL for the school:

     http://www.starkeyintl.com/index.html
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 21, 2010, 10:07:29 am
The morality of "slavery on the basis of being on the losing side of a war or raid"... depends on which side won. If an aggressor took slaves, that's wrong. If people participating in a criminal act of aggression were defeated, though, slavery for them sounds exactly the same to me as slavery for any other kind of criminal.

In any case, when thieves steal the fruits of another's labor, they are in effect imposing slavery on their victim. Requiring them to return what they have stolen is not an act of promoting slavery, it is an act of opposing slavery. It is a terrible confusion, to which this strip is calling attention, to equate theft with restitution. Involuntary servitude by reason of having committed a crime is not among that which the Thirteenth Amendment forbids.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on October 21, 2010, 10:23:42 am

Slaves live in a socialist society. Unless the are obvious layabouts, they get the same reward (food, clothing, housing) no matter how hard they work. So there is an incentive only to look productive, but not necessarily to be productive. So malingering becomes an art. Take as much as you can from the system and contribute as little as possible.

This same exact argument applies the same exact way to salaried employees, particularly in large companies.

But you can offer employees bonuses and perqs. That can help some. They will at least try to look like they're productive. And the better you can inspect their work the better you can reward results instead of appearance. Slaves and salaried employees do best when they are given well-defined tasks that are easy to inspect. "If it isn't inspected, it's neglected."

So, didn't US slaves get various incentives? For one, beer. For another, time to work in their own personal gardens. Some slaves were allowed to marry. Some were allowed to perform stud service. And all could avoid punishment by doing adequate work, provided the work could be competently inspected.

Things are somewhat better today for salaried employees than they used to be for slaves. And some ways they are worse. If you do badly you are not sold, but merely fired. Then you can spend up to a year or even more extending your credit card debt until you find an employer who will take you on and give you the chance to pay the debt down. To be a slave that nobody wants, begging for the chance to get a new master.... And the people who do this clearly lack whatever it takes to be free, to be other than employees.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 21, 2010, 10:45:04 am

Slaves live in a socialist society. Unless the are obvious layabouts, they get the same reward (food, clothing, housing) no matter how hard they work. So there is an incentive only to look productive, but not necessarily to be productive. So malingering becomes an art. Take as much as you can from the system and contribute as little as possible.

This same exact argument applies the same exact way to salaried employees, particularly in large companies.


Are you intellectually challenged ? lol

Salaried person has nothing in common with Slaves dude, don't come with comparisons that don't apply ... an employee is paid for some work he is expected to produce, slave IS OWNED by someone else

All the crying about how An Cap society descend in slavery is downright wrong, the whole system rely on trust, being that nobody is going to arbitration if someone was abused during his pay ''back time'' ... also Anyone who want to engage in this kind of schemes, like the Royal Navy habit of kidnapping people, you really need some BIG armed gang, because everyone around you do have LOTS of weapons.

Pay back is a bitch my friend, don't forget it.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Archonix on October 21, 2010, 11:35:14 am
*Blistering reality*

Mostly conceded. The difference between the idealised model and what actually happened is painful.

The difference between indentured slaves and chattels becomes clearer when the flaws of my argument are considered (see? I can't lose!) by highlighting the basic injustice of chattel slavery, where the justification is merely the fact that one side is stronger, whereas indentured slavery is in theory a mutual agreement to pay off debt.

The concept of indenture for paying debts isn't so unusual as people think, either, nor is chattel slavery actually ended. It goes under different names now. Prison inmates in the US are often used as effective slave labour, though they're paid a minimal wage as a cover for it and it's seen as paying off their debt to society. And who hasn't heard the old song The Company Store?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 21, 2010, 11:47:50 am
I have yet to hear anyone tell me how indentureship is any worse than incarceration. Especially since the criminals "time" will be determined by how hard he/she works, rather than by the arbitrary decision of a judge.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 21, 2010, 11:49:50 am
And who hasn't heard the old song The Company Store?
I never heard that one, but I did hear Tennessee Ernie Ford singing Sixteen Tons.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 21, 2010, 11:52:26 am
Sandy, can you direct me to that study about slaves consuming 90% of their output? I'd be interested to read it.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on October 21, 2010, 11:55:32 am
Prison inmates in the US are often used as effective slave labour, though they're paid a minimal wage as a cover for it and it's seen as paying off their debt to society.

Yes, but you left out the biggie, the military draft. Now that is slavery! Even "voluntary" military service is more like slavery than indenture. Once you are in, it is almost impossible to change your mind. Even at the end of your tour of duty, you can arbitrarily be held over if the military thinks you might still be of use.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on October 21, 2010, 12:13:20 pm
Sandy, can you direct me to that study about slaves consuming 90% of their output? I'd be interested to read it.

I wish I could. I probably have that issue of Freedom Today... in a storage locker in San Francisco. Otherwise, I would have no idea where to find the article today. This was a third of a century ago. There was no internet.

STOP THE PRESSES! I just did a web search and found this reference to the article:

  KETCHER, MIKE, The Taxpayer as Slave, 2pp, in PP 1656-1659: 458

It is listed on a site belonging to LIBERTARIAN MICROFICHE PUBLISHING
http://www.butterbach.net/lmp/lmp_sup2.htm

Also, I just dropped Mike a note asking if he still had a copy.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Suralin on October 21, 2010, 12:46:10 pm
People like Roland assume that without a strong government to keep things under control, the rich become the most powerful force in society and are unstoppable. This overlooks the obvious fact that what the rich do now is utilize the power of the government to get their way, and without that government power, it becomes more costly for the rich to screw over other people, which affects their bottom line. *snip*

*delurk*

Alright, I need to weigh in on this bit and mention something I think you've overlooked.

Mercenaries.

Yes, it'd be expensive for the rich guy to hire them. Yes, they'd take pretty intense losses if the rich guy decided to use them take over an AnCap society, and turn it into his private fiefdom, because the population is (hopefully) well-armed. More so over time due to guerrilla fighting wearing the mercs down.

But the depressing possibility remains that he might still try, and cause a worrying amount of utter chaos, depending on a number of factors (level of equipment the mercs are using, intensity of resistance, possibility of someone else buying out the mercs' contract, etc). Not unstoppable by any means, but still possible.

Remember, the human desire to control people is not necessarily limited to governments. In this hypothetical case, it's clearly overriden the rich guy's business sense. He'd be wrecking the very place he sought to profit from. But as you well know, in some eyes that pales in comparison to the prospect of UNLIMITED POWER!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiCznGaex2c)


Sorry for the digression. Back on topic!

As far as the "indentured servitude vs. slavery" argument goes, I can live with indentured servitude, as long as fair ground rules are put in place to protect said indentured workers from mistreatment (or, say, from someone jacking up the interest rates to keep them indentured indefinitely). Beats throwing someone in a cage to rot for X years, no one has to pay to upkeep the prison, there are fewer social problems than incarceration, and they get job experience to boot.

But out-and-out slavery, no way. Human beings should not be able to be owned. We are more than property.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on October 21, 2010, 02:09:08 pm
Except for testosterone points, why would a rich person hire mercs to enslave an AnCap society which would resist fiercely? What merc would be crazy enough to put his life on the line for such a cause?

It is said that the Japanese decided not to invade America because "there was a rifleman behind every blade of grass." Where would be the profit in trying to invade an AnCap society where that statement was literally true - where every AnCap member was armed and trained to defend their lives and property?

AnCap people are not worth the bother of trying to enslave; they have not been habituated to the easy acceptance of tyranny. They have to be broken one by one; no central Great Leader can be forced to surrender an entire people to a would-be conqueror.

Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Kurita_Yorinaga on October 21, 2010, 03:41:45 pm
Except for testosterone points, why would a rich person hire mercs to enslave an AnCap society which would resist fiercely? What merc would be crazy enough to put his life on the line for such a cause?
...
AnCap people are not worth the bother of trying to enslave; they have not been habituated to the easy acceptance of tyranny. They have to be broken one by one; no central Great Leader can be forced to surrender an entire people to a would-be conqueror.

i just registered to reply here and as much as i liked to see an AnCap state or community become reality... it is thing like this that make me rather doupt that it will ever happen:

indentured servitude

if it is possible to hold someone in indentured servitude, a businessman of ill intend has every means to legaly "enslave" you, without ever needing even ONE merc.
How? rather simple, ether through having(or creating) a monopoly on a product or service, hell even much simpler... through gambling.
Want an Examples?
I, the shady businessman start a Lotterie(or any other game of chance) and hey, i'm such a nice man, you don't even have to pay me up front, pay me when you win...didn't win? ooh sad, do you have the money, no! oh well... do you want another ticket? rince, repeat, ad nausem... till he owes me enough to never be able to pay it back.

same works for drugs, if its AnCap, who can stop you from producing ANY good you want/can and sell it or stop someone from buying it from you, its the buyers health, if he likes to party that way... i just have to inform my buyers of possible "sideeffects"... (just in case he trys to sue me for poisoning him).

i just have to keep a straight face and say that it just for fun and then i have any legal claim to your sorry ass, as i'm maybe not the most moral guy around, but hey its a contract between me an you, my costumer and you got what you paid for(tho i would prefer to try the lottery, for the moral high ground), that way i get my wageslaves (like we're all are already) AND make some dollars on the way too.

sure, if you have friends, they might be able to pay your tap... but whats with others that don't? And don't tell me that no one will buy drugs... there always are some.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on October 21, 2010, 03:46:49 pm
"Nice, respectable" shark of a businessman, no self-respecting AnCap would be interested in your silly games. You might ensnare one or two, but you'd never get as far as any typical government does, because you'd never win the cloak of "legitimacy."
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 21, 2010, 04:27:38 pm
indentured servitude

if it is possible to hold someone in indentured servitude, a businessman of ill intend has every means to legaly "enslave" you, without ever needing even ONE merc.
How? rather simple, ether through having(or creating) a monopoly on a product or service, hell even much simpler... through gambling.
Want an Examples?
I, the shady businessman start a Lotterie(or any other game of chance) and hey, i'm such a nice man, you don't even have to pay me up front, pay me when you win...didn't win? ooh sad, do you have the money, no! oh well... do you want another ticket? rince, repeat, ad nausem... till he owes me enough to never be able to pay it back.

same works for drugs, if its AnCap, who can stop you from producing ANY good you want/can and sell it or stop someone from buying it from you, its the buyers health, if he likes to party that way... i just have to inform my buyers of possible "sideeffects"... (just in case he trys to sue me for poisoning him).

i just have to keep a straight face and say that it just for fun and then i have any legal claim to your sorry ass, as i'm maybe not the most moral guy around, but hey its a contract between me an you, my costumer and you got what you paid for(tho i would prefer to try the lottery, for the moral high ground), that way i get my wageslaves (like we're all are already) AND make some dollars on the way too.

sure, if you have friends, they might be able to pay your tap... but whats with others that don't? And don't tell me that no one will buy drugs... there always are some.

It will never make it full scale to a point were he have a fiefdom, see place like Somalia no one acquire large swarm of Slaves ... despite the fact that in theory they could, because at one point those people are armed and they won't obey.

Indentured service only work with the consent of the person paying the debt ... if you have 1000 people in the same situation they will get ideas. The most efficient way to enslave people is to put guns on their heads.


This whole discussion miss the point that we ALREADY have indentured slavery when Parents are forced to give up part of their income has child pension to live up to their responsibility.


Anyway who said that indentured work should be hard, low paid, degrading or unpleasant ? wouldn't be in all people interest if the indentured got a high paid job to pay off the debt quickly ?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Kurita_Yorinaga on October 21, 2010, 04:44:26 pm
"Nice, respectable" shark of a businessman, no self-respecting AnCap would be interested in your silly games. You might ensnare one or two, but you'd never get as far as any typical government does, because you'd never win the cloak of "legitimacy."

hehehe, i didn't say that I want or even need "the cloak of legitimacy" for this, to be honest... the shark in my examples has to even run much much more closer to the rules(not the ideals) of an AnCap society to get his scam to work, then anyone else(because he might get under scrutiny of others). And it has nothing to do with self-respect... well, maybe if you mean the drugs, but sure not with a lottery, hey if you're a capitalist businessman, you try your luck with every contract or product... as an example... if in EFT a prospector finds out that his MassCon is just unusually dense rock instead of metal... its quite likely that he spend money(even if its just for the O2) and may even end up broke if its worth less then what he spent. Or if you produce airseals for spacesuits and one fails because it slipped through your quality testing... you might face trail for compensation of a lost

that said, the shark businessman just has to hope that everyone else upholds the ideals(unlikey him)...  else someone WILL just say "F**K YOU! i don't honour our contract"...

but then, what happens to someone that breaks a contract in an AnCap Society. Yeah, you will not get emperor of the universe that way... but hell, you'll get an easy life with just a few dozen.

All i want to say is, that it takes just ONE individual that uses the rules to twist the ideals to make everything go down south if you can force someone to work for you in any job you want.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on October 21, 2010, 06:11:43 pm

Anyway who said that indentured work should be hard, low paid, degrading or unpleasant ? wouldn't be in all people interest if the indentured got a high paid job to pay off the debt quickly ?

Say there are some jobs that society depends on that are hard, degrading, and unpleasant. Mining was traditionally that way.

We need the work to be done. But if we pay free men what it takes to get them to choose that work when there is a labor shortage, then we will pay more than we can afford. Of course, if there are people who for one reason or another cannot get better work, then we are home free. Give them a token payment on top of ther subsistence. Problem solved.

Of course, we might solve the problem with brilliant application of high technology. That might work better than slave labor. But that requires brilliant technologists, while lots of people know how to create and apply low-pay degraded humans.

The basic trick is to get people to lower their expectations. Once they have it straight that they just plain aren't going to get very much, they can be motivated almost as well by the prospect of a beer or two at the end of the day as they would by a sizeable IRA contribution at the end of the year. But it's vitally important that they do work which is easy to monitor. If you can't tell how well they're working then they will goof off.

If they are doing simple tasks where it's easy to tell how well they do, how is it better to use slave labor instead of simple automated machinery? The automated tools might be expensive or inflexible, hard to program. And the slaves might be available and cheap, and not good for much else. But I expect that often it would be better to automate those jobs.

If you can easily monitor the work and tell how well the slave is doing, how is that work worth high pay? In general, high-paying jobs require exceptional judgement. It isn't obvious how well that judgement is working until later. A manager who can do a good job of supervising that sort of work deserves extra high pay. If you think your slave can do that work then sure, give him a chance. But you have to consider that his exceptional judgement did not keep him from being enslaved in the first place.

But there are exceptions. There were high-pay boxers and gladiators. High-pay musicians and composers.
http://www.africanloft.com/ignatius-sancho-1729-1780-from-african-slave-to-composer-author/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Willis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Tom_Wiggins

But imagine a slave CEO or CFO. He could embezzle money, he could do things that would cause the company to collapse shortly after he got the money to free himself. Who would know? Some jobs require not only competence, they require a whole lot of trust that people may not want to extend to slaves.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 21, 2010, 07:36:45 pm
Anyway who said that indentured work should be hard, low paid, degrading or unpleasant ? wouldn't be in all people interest if the indentured got a high paid job to pay off the debt quickly ?
The reason it's likely to be like that is that people who resort to thievery presumably lack the appropriate skills to make the money they want honestly (and at lower risk), and a lot of the better-paying jobs require the employer to be able to trust the employee.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on October 22, 2010, 03:33:00 am
I work in one of those high-paying, high-responsibility professions, as a unix systems administrator. Like many other administrators, I often have access to high-value computer systems which hold the keys to the business. We have both the knowledge and the access to be able to do great and terrible damage to our employers. Nor is it possible to monitor our activities in any meaningful way.

With very rare exceptions, system admins do not abuse their powers. How is this possible, if we are merely "wage slaves", if the only thing keeping us in check is those greedy, unscrupulous capitalist slavers?

Part of it is the internalized sense of ethics; we want to be good at what we do, which  includes using our powers responsibly. Part of it is "reputation risk" - if one ever gets a reputation for screwing over one's employer, it becomes hard to find another job. In addition, the terms of our "wage slavery" are not intolerably oppressive. Marxist "wage slavery" theory aside, there is a very real difference between being owned by a slaveowner or government who may dictate the terms and conditions of employment, and being able to move from one employer to another at will.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 22, 2010, 09:12:21 am
With very rare exceptions, system admins do not abuse their powers. How is this possible, if we are merely "wage slaves", if the only thing keeping us in check is those greedy, unscrupulous capitalist slavers?
I'm not sure how this is a reply to my point, since what I was noting was that it's probably not a good idea to let an armed robber work off his debt by working as a system admin.

I'm not trying to argue for the nonexistence of honest people, merely for the existence of a few very dishonest people who can cause damage far out of proportion to their number (for it is easier to destroy than to create) if our systems don't take their existence into account.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on October 22, 2010, 09:28:26 am
I work in one of those high-paying, high-responsibility professions, as a unix systems administrator. Like many other administrators, I often have access to high-value computer systems which hold the keys to the business. We have both the knowledge and the access to be able to do great and terrible damage to our employers. Nor is it possible to monitor our activities in any meaningful way.

With very rare exceptions, system admins do not abuse their powers. How is this possible, if we are merely "wage slaves", if the only thing keeping us in check is those greedy, unscrupulous capitalist slavers?

Most important, you have the sort of ethics that doesn't encourage such things. Also, you get high pay and might feel the pay is worth good performance.

I have known some programmers etc who built bombs into their work so that if they were fired etc the bad guys would not get benefits from their work. Some of them scheduled irregular problems that they had to come in and fix, guaranteeing that their bosses saw how indispensible they were and also showing that they deserved their retainers. I never did that, which may have reduced my income, but I didn't think I needed the money that bad.

One of them left his work when he got a job in Santa Clara, and he courteously defused all the bombs before he left.

Quote
Part of it is the internalized sense of ethics; we want to be good at what we do, which  includes using our powers responsibly. Part of it is "reputation risk" - if one ever gets a reputation for screwing over one's employer, it becomes hard to find another job. In addition, the terms of our "wage slavery" are not intolerably oppressive. Marxist "wage slavery" theory aside, there is a very real difference between being owned by a slaveowner or government who may dictate the terms and conditions of employment, and being able to move from one employer to another at will.

Yes, that's a real difference. When you do work that is in demand, when there is a labor shortage for your specialty, then you have opportunities that you would not have if there was a labor surplus or if you were a slave.

And of course this trusted work is not usually something to give to people who have no choice, who could be assigned to it and required to do it and who do not get many benefits until their debts are paid off. Unless there is some special reason to trust them.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 22, 2010, 10:47:48 am
Sandy, can you direct me to that study about slaves consuming 90% of their output? I'd be interested to read it.

I wish I could. I probably have that issue of Freedom Today... in a storage locker in San Francisco. Otherwise, I would have no idea where to find the article today. This was a third of a century ago. There was no internet.

STOP THE PRESSES! I just did a web search and found this reference to the article:

  KETCHER, MIKE, The Taxpayer as Slave, 2pp, in PP 1656-1659: 458

It is listed on a site belonging to LIBERTARIAN MICROFICHE PUBLISHING
http://www.butterbach.net/lmp/lmp_sup2.htm

Also, I just dropped Mike a note asking if he still had a copy.

Thanks! It's a lead, at least.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 22, 2010, 11:00:39 am
that said, the shark businessman just has to hope that everyone else upholds the ideals(unlikey him)...  else someone WILL just say "F**K YOU! i don't honour our contract"...

but then, what happens to someone that breaks a contract in an AnCap Society. Yeah, you will not get emperor of the universe that way... but hell, you'll get an easy life with just a few dozen.

Contracts are only binding in a free society if an exchange has already taken place. There is no legal obligation not to break your promises (otherwise every time a couple gets engaged they would be legally required to marry, and divorce would also be illegal). If you make a promise to a scumbag, and find out he's a scumbag, you break that damn promise and tell the world he's a scumbag. The combination of reputation ratings systems, a free press, and a strong lack of a desire of anyone in such a society to become anyone else's slave would likely be more than sufficient to ensure things come out your way.

Hell, even if an exchange HAS taken place you can still break the contract if you're willing to deal with the consequences of having a poor contract rating. But since in a free society all exchanges are voluntary (which includes a requirement of full disclosure and mutual understanding), that means that if someone ends up with a choice between indentureship to a scumbag or a poor contract rating, it was their choice, and while we may feel pity for them, we must admit the justice of their condition.

Quote
All i want to say is, that it takes just ONE individual that uses the rules to twist the ideals to make everything go down south if you can force someone to work for you in any job you want.

All it takes is ONE individual with the desire and wherewithal to present a more rights-respecting alternative to put that other person clean out of business.

You are thinking about this situation through the lense of the state. The problem with the state is that there is only one way of doing things in a given territory. The chief benefit of a stateless society is that on each and every square inch of land there are dozens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions of possible "systems" that one could voluntarily join, and switch from one to another as it suits their need. The only "law of the land" would be that nobody may justly initiate force against another, and for the life of me I can't think of any case of indentureship to which I would object that could occur under strict adherence to that law.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 22, 2010, 11:26:00 am
With very rare exceptions, system admins do not abuse their powers. How is this possible, if we are merely "wage slaves", if the only thing keeping us in check is those greedy, unscrupulous capitalist slavers?
I'm not sure how this is a reply to my point, since what I was noting was that it's probably not a good idea to let an armed robber work off his debt by working as a system admin.

I'm not trying to argue for the nonexistence of honest people, merely for the existence of a few very dishonest people who can cause damage far out of proportion to their number (for it is easier to destroy than to create) if our systems don't take their existence into account.

You are guys are MISSING THE POINT : In principle nothing prevent an indentured person to work in any position, even in a Diamond polishing facility or System Admin and not necerrally hard and degrading jobs.

The practicality and details depends on the kind of work, technological details and social environment, but in principle no JOB is off the table.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: macsnafu on October 22, 2010, 11:32:09 am

You are guys are MISSING THE POINT : In principle nothing prevent an indentured person to work in any position, even in a Diamond polishing facility or System Admin and not necerrally hard and degrading jobs.

The practicality and details depends on the kind of work, technological details and social environment, but in principle no JOB is off the table.

I would think that the point is essentially restitution is just a debt that needs to be paid.  A creditor could pay it off to the victim and the criminal would owe it to the creditor.  Indentured servitude really wouldn't come into it unless there was a large risk that the criminal *would* try to skip or not pay the debt.  Only then would it be necessary to keep closer tabs on him/her.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: mellyrn on October 22, 2010, 12:40:47 pm
Schaeffer Cox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb6W2XjisU) has an interesting thing going in Alaska.  The penalty in his alternative system (which sounds very like Ceres) for skipping out is:  losing the right to use the system themselves.  So far, no one has skipped.

And I didn't get Merry's claim that the indenture equalled slavery.  The pirates were being asked if this judgment was acceptable to them.  They had a chance to counteroffer (if they could think of anything TO counteroffer).  If they say, "OK, we'll do that", how is that slavery?

On a slightly different note, I inadvertently got some insight into slavery in an account of "Northern" (US) women who married Southern plantation owners, antebellum, and how they coped with a slave-run household instead of one with hired servants.  Apparently it took 70 slaves to do the work that 7 hired servants could do.  It makes sense:  no amount of beatings or threats can make anyone perform at his best, and the one power a slave has is passive aggression.

As to the shark businessman:  maybe I'm indebted to him in some sense -- but I can and will ask for mediation, and he's going to have to try and look awfully sweet and innocent.  And even if I lose, after a while when enough of us have brought him up for mediation on the same charge over and over, the community is going to wise up.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Roland on October 22, 2010, 01:26:08 pm
Quote
On a slightly different note, I inadvertently got some insight into slavery in an account of "Northern" (US) women who married Southern plantation owners, antebellum, and how they coped with a slave-run household instead of one with hired servants.  Apparently it took 70 slaves to do the work that 7 hired servants could do.  It makes sense:  no amount of beatings or threats can make anyone perform at his best, and the one power a slave has is passive aggression.

Can you use that formula on our case of penal slavery here? For those penitents wouldn`t work for nothing. By being productive they would pay their debt (maybe their weregild too) earlier and so shorten their sentence time. Wereas  "normal" slaves have nothing to gain.
Still, what about those who are a danger to the community? Is it enough to let murderers pay? Or is there the need to lock at least notorious murderers away? Or to execute them? Who decides on that? Is it okay to kill them in an act of self-justice? or will this just produce bloody feuds like in old Iceland?

By the way, those who labelled me Commie a couple of posts before should think twice. Is everyone who dares to criticise capitalism (or to be precise, Capitalists) a supporter of Communism? I never would defend Soviet Union or China. Yet, although I feel Marx was totally wrong in his solution, he made a lot of good points when criticising capitalism. And the actual development follows exactly his prognosis. Now, this is a discussion that doesn`t belong into this topic.  Maybe there is another thread where this is more suited to? Just don`t have the time to study the elder threads by myself.
 
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: macsnafu on October 22, 2010, 03:00:29 pm

 Yet, although I feel Marx was totally wrong in his solution, he made a lot of good points when criticising capitalism. And the actual development follows exactly his prognosis. Now, this is a discussion that doesn`t belong into this topic.  Maybe there is another thread where this is more suited to? Just don`t have the time to study the elder threads by myself.
 

I'm not calling you a commie, but seriously?  Marx predicted that crony or state capitalism would progress and hang on for as long as it has?  I thought Marx thought capitalism was supposed to kill itself.  Did he even make the distinction we do between state capitalism and free market capitalism? 
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 22, 2010, 03:24:58 pm

 Yet, although I feel Marx was totally wrong in his solution, he made a lot of good points when criticising capitalism. And the actual development follows exactly his prognosis. Now, this is a discussion that doesn`t belong into this topic.  Maybe there is another thread where this is more suited to? Just don`t have the time to study the elder threads by myself.
 

I'm not calling you a commie, but seriously?  Marx predicted that crony or state capitalism would progress and hang on for as long as it has?  I thought Marx thought capitalism was supposed to kill itself.  Did he even make the distinction we do between state capitalism and free market capitalism? 

I have a commie friend, just like this dude he can't only spew random though around and make fun of me .... but when I bring him a serious question his brains literally FREEZE.

He went about ranting on AIG and Baillout has excess of capitalism ... then I remembered him that the FEDS gave them fat in the first place ... froze and shut up ASAP has he need to think
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on October 22, 2010, 08:42:48 pm
STOP THE PRESSES! I just did a web search and found this reference to the article:

  KETCHER, MIKE, The Taxpayer as Slave, 2pp, in PP 1656-1659: 458

It is listed on a site belonging to LIBERTARIAN MICROFICHE PUBLISHING
http://www.butterbach.net/lmp/lmp_sup2.htm

Also, I just dropped Mike a note asking if he still had a copy.

Thanks! It's a lead, at least.

Mike replied that he will look for that issue and scan the article if he finds it. If he does, I will make it available to you.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on October 24, 2010, 09:10:18 am
The feuds in Iceland, according to David Friedman, were quite rare until an outside agent - the king of Denmark - stepped in to support some at the expense of others. Even then, the rate was low compared to modern day "civilized" societies.

With regard to the "public safety" argument, it can be argued that anyone who is that dangerous should be six feet under. That's an option, as we saw earlier when two mass murderers were shot.

In more "ordinary" cases of one-to-one mayhem, would-be murderers face a very high risk of being shot in the act; I assume that open carry is prevalent, as in "Probability Broach."
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on October 24, 2010, 06:43:52 pm
The feuds in Iceland, according to David Friedman, were quite rare

They were rare in iceland because one could resolve a conflict either by holding a lawsuit, or by just openly and publicly killing someone and paying compensation to kin - which must have acted as powerful incentive not to get too far up someone else's nose.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: mellyrn on October 26, 2010, 08:35:32 am
Might be that if we set up a judicial "machine", where the facts ("facts") are plugged in, evaluated by the code (laws), and a determination pops out and the actual humans who have to enforce the verdict can shrug and say, "Sorry, my hands are tied, this is just the way it is", we'd get a lot more violent crime than if actual human beings evaluated/mediated cases face-to-face and we knew we'd be simply listened to (not necessarily agreed with).  In the former, dehumanizing my judge seems not to stop there, but carries over to all that part of my society I don't know 'person'ally, and it's so much easier to inflict harm on nonhumans than on humans.  In the latter, anyone I meet might be part of my someday jury, but that's conscious self-interest speaking; I think what really happens does so preconsciously, and a human evaluation team "colors" my whole perception of my society with humanness.

Which is the long version of, I think the Cererean system would have less to do than an authoritarian one.

Should "murderers" be put to death?  Just asking the question, you're trying to set up a machine.  You're turning individuals into categories, to be dealt with in replicable (and therefore mindless -- "we don't have to think about it, there's nothing to discuss") ways.  I'd say it depends on the murderer and the situation.  Lord Peter Wimsey once has the opportunity of proving that a brilliant, but unknown, painter is the killer of a real skunk of a guy who'd really hurt the painter.  Wimsey's author has him decline to do so; though she does not say so explicitly, the nature of the killing, violent as it is, is one that is quite situation-specific and unlikely in the extreme to occur again.

In another novel (written by humans, which is my justification for citing fiction), a drunk driver kills someone, and afterwards anonymously donates money, weekly, to the victim's family.  The young Dine policeman figures out who the killer was -- the grandfather and sole custodian of a retarded boy -- and declines to apply the white man's law, which impersonally calls for imprisonment as a punishment.  Dine law (or custom) calls for restoring an errant member of society to harmony with society -- and Young Cop sees that this is exactly what is happening.  He covers his own tracks, so other cops can't follow the clues he did.

Should "murderers" be put to death?  One of the things I like most about Cererean society is that they seem willing to ask, How should we, real live human beings, handle this real live human individual, in these unique circumstances?

Should murderers be put to death?  What does it do to your own soul (however defined) to do the execution?  You'll only be able to do it if you do exactly what the murderer did -- dehumanize your subject.  And whenever we do that, we dehumanize a tiny part of ourselves.  I say, for the sake of whatever humanity you have left in you, that if you can see the human in the murderer and still choose to kill him, then and only then may you.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 26, 2010, 11:50:10 am
Might be that if we set up a judicial "machine", where the facts ("facts") are plugged in, evaluated by the code (laws), and a determination pops out and the actual humans who have to enforce the verdict can shrug and say, "Sorry, my hands are tied, this is just the way it is", we'd get a lot more violent crime than if actual human beings evaluated/mediated cases face-to-face and we knew we'd be simply listened to (not necessarily agreed with).  In the former, dehumanizing my judge seems not to stop there, but carries over to all that part of my society I don't know 'person'ally, and it's so much easier to inflict harm on nonhumans than on humans.  In the latter, anyone I meet might be part of my someday jury, but that's conscious self-interest speaking; I think what really happens does so preconsciously, and a human evaluation team "colors" my whole perception of my society with humanness.

Which is the long version of, I think the Cererean system would have less to do than an authoritarian one.

Should "murderers" be put to death?  Just asking the question, you're trying to set up a machine.  You're turning individuals into categories, to be dealt with in replicable (and therefore mindless -- "we don't have to think about it, there's nothing to discuss") ways.  I'd say it depends on the murderer and the situation.  Lord Peter Wimsey once has the opportunity of proving that a brilliant, but unknown, painter is the killer of a real skunk of a guy who'd really hurt the painter.  Wimsey's author has him decline to do so; though she does not say so explicitly, the nature of the killing, violent as it is, is one that is quite situation-specific and unlikely in the extreme to occur again.

In another novel (written by humans, which is my justification for quoting fiction), a drunk driver kills someone, and afterwards anonymously donates money, weekly, to the victim's family.  The young Dine policeman figures out who the killer was -- the grandfather and sole custodian of a retarded boy -- and declines to apply the white man's law, which impersonally calls for imprisonment as a punishment.  Dine law (or custom) calls for restoring an errant member of society to harmony with society -- and Young Cop sees that this is exactly what is happening.  He covers his own tracks, so other cops can't follow the clues he did.

Should "murderers" be put to death?  One of the things I like most about Cererean society is that they seem willing to ask, How should we, real live human beings, handle this real live human individual, in these unique circumstances?

Should murderers be put to death?  What does it do to your own soul (however defined) to do the execution?  You'll only be able to do it if you do exactly what the murderer did -- dehumanize your subject.  And whenever we do that, we dehumanize a tiny part of ourselves.  I say, for the sake of whatever humanity you have left in you, that if you can see the human in the murderer and still choose to kill him, then and only then may you.

Keep it short because we don't have time to read a Gazillion words that say nothing
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 26, 2010, 12:06:18 pm
BTW sams, the fr33agents site isn't dead. I just caught that you said that it was.  ???
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on October 26, 2010, 12:18:37 pm
BTW sams, the fr33agents site isn't dead. I just caught that you said that it was.  ???

The social forum is dead and almost nothing got actualized

The website failed to promote a intellectual debate and degenerated into petty forum discussions
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on October 26, 2010, 12:54:28 pm
So... at this moment in time, it isn't accomplishing what you would like to see accomplished. But it isn't DEAD, as in, it still functions - which means there is plenty of opportunity for those things to be accomplished in the future. By leaving the site now you're not helping that to happen.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: mellyrn on October 26, 2010, 02:58:35 pm
Quote
Keep it short because we don't have time to read a Gazillion words that say nothing

That's not my monkey.  How about instead you (singular or plural) just skip reading them?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: wdg3rd on October 27, 2010, 01:28:11 am

Should murderers be put to death?  What does it do to your own soul (however defined) to do the execution?  You'll only be able to do it if you do exactly what the murderer did -- dehumanize your subject.  And whenever we do that, we dehumanize a tiny part of ourselves.  I say, for the sake of whatever humanity you have left in you, that if you can see the human in the murderer and still choose to kill him, then and only then may you.

Keep it short because we don't have time to read a Gazillion words that say nothing

He didn't say nothing.  Unless you have a guilty conscience.  (I have my own guilts, and you aren't part of them).

And yeah, I'll kill a murderer and/or rapist if I'm convinced the crime(s) happened.  No guilt (though mucho regret) on my part even when it's family.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 27, 2010, 05:02:45 pm
Should murderers be put to death?  What does it do to your own soul (however defined) to do the execution?
Right now, at least in Canada, we don't think that our legal system is failing in considering extenuating circumstances in crimes. Instead, it seems to fail to deal out sufficient penalties where there are no such circumstances to indicate a real concern with the safety of ordinary people.

Your concerns are valid. Executing all murderers always may lead to injustice. But never executing any murderers ever is not just either.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: dough560 on October 30, 2010, 01:35:21 am
The Arbitration is not establishing slavery but a contract for the settlement of an acknowledged debt.  Merry's outburst was a knee-jerk reaction to a settlement framed in a manner she was not familiar with.

The court may recommend or suggest certain items be sold.  The court will not suggest the Perps sell property necessary to their survival. Examples would include personal weapons, space-suits or tools.  What property they sell (if they elect to sell any property), will receive fair value.  It is not in the court's interest to allow the property be sold below market value.

The collars would not curtail freedom of movement.  They would identify the Perps' status to anyone who cared to look and report their departure.  The collar could also act as a tracking device, if they had not settled their debt.  The Perps also have the option of concealing the collars under shirt collars or ascots.

Where they reside and how they provide for themselves while settling the debt, is up to them.  Perps still have the right of self-defense.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 30, 2010, 09:42:26 am
The court may recommend or suggest certain items be sold.  The court will not suggest the Perps sell property necessary to their survival. Examples would include personal weapons, space-suits or tools.
Now this is strange. A perpetrator, one would think, would be one type of person who would never be allowed to possess a weapon, such as a firearm, even though other citizens were not restricted from having weapons.

Why go around asking for trouble?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: wdg3rd on October 30, 2010, 10:02:00 am
The court may recommend or suggest certain items be sold.  The court will not suggest the Perps sell property necessary to their survival. Examples would include personal weapons, space-suits or tools.
Now this is strange. A perpetrator, one would think, would be one type of person who would never be allowed to possess a weapon, such as a firearm, even though other citizens were not restricted from having weapons.

Why go around asking for trouble?

Quad, the right to self-defense is an absolute.  One of my problems with this country today is that when a "felon" (usually a pot smoker) is released from prison, hir First Amendment rights are in full force while hir Second Amendment rights are denied for life.  And while it's theoretically possible to defend one's self from firearms without firearms (generally by being behind a thick shield or being somewhere else, some "martial arts" experts claim to be able to dodge bullets, but I've never seen a demonstration repeated under controlled conditions) guns work.  In a free society, if a guy hopes to get laid, he'll stay honest and peaceful and the only people he'll kill will be those who tried to kill him first.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: dough560 on October 30, 2010, 12:29:45 pm
It could also be argued a criminal associating with criminals is most in need of protection.  Perceived as weaker, the criminal would be a target.  While the criminal would be safe from a citizen he has not attacked or injured in any way.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on October 30, 2010, 12:55:08 pm
The court may recommend or suggest certain items be sold.  The court will not suggest the Perps sell property necessary to their survival. Examples would include personal weapons, space-suits or tools.
Now this is strange. A perpetrator, one would think, would be one type of person who would never be allowed to possess a weapon, such as a firearm, even though other citizens were not restricted from having weapons.

Why go around asking for trouble?

Everybody is potentially dangerous, and perhaps in a big variety of ways. If you don't trust somebody with a gun, would you trust him with an automobile? A cropduster? Would you trust him to be a short order cook?

I think if you can't trust him with a gun then you'd better kill him. I can understand if you disagree. Some days I disagree with myself.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on October 31, 2010, 05:13:03 pm
I think if you can't trust him with a gun then you'd better kill him. I can understand if you disagree.
I'm not sure that I do disagree with that. It's just that "If I... there wouldn't be many people left." (http://"http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090323"), if I can be forgiven a plug for a competing webcomic.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Bob G on October 31, 2010, 07:57:27 pm
(T)he right to self-defense is an absolute.  One of my problems with this country today is that when a "felon" (usually a pot smoker) is released from prison, hir First Amendment rights are in full force while hir Second Amendment rights are denied for life.

And it seems that every time you turn around, more activities have been deemed felonies. This deprives ex-cons of not just the right to keep and bear arms, but their ability to vote (probably not a big issue for any of you agorists out there) and likely to sit on a jury as well, among other things. If I were paranoid, it would seem to be a situation consciously designed to render the populace not only defenseless but completely powerless.

It could also be argued a criminal associating with criminals is most in need of protection.  Perceived as weaker, the criminal would be a target.  While the criminal would be safe from a citizen he has not attacked or injured in any way.

  I've long held this view. Even my hard-core gun nut firearms enthusiast associates look at me as if I were mad when I try to make the case.
  Of course, a real 'thug life' criminal (as opposed to college kids who share their weed with their buddies and get busted for 'distribution') is just going to ignore the prohibition on being armed, anyway.

Everybody is potentially dangerous, and perhaps in a big variety of ways. If you don't trust somebody with a gun, would you trust him with an automobile? A cropduster? Would you trust him to be a short order cook?

I think if you can't trust him with a gun then you'd better kill him. I can understand if you disagree. Some days I disagree with myself.

I don't disagree. That's what probation is supposed to be about: seeing how (if) the ex-con can adjust to living as a free person on the 'outside'.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on October 31, 2010, 11:17:22 pm
(T)he right to self-defense is an absolute.  One of my problems with this country today is that when a "felon" (usually a pot smoker) is released from prison, hir First Amendment rights are in full force while hir Second Amendment rights are denied for life.

And it seems that every time you turn around, more activities have been deemed felonies. This deprives ex-cons of not just the right to keep and bear arms, but their ability to vote (probably not a big issue for any of you agorists out there) and likely to sit on a jury as well, among other things. If I were paranoid, it would seem to be a situation consciously designed to render the populace not only defenseless but completely powerless.

It could also be argued a criminal associating with criminals is most in need of protection.  Perceived as weaker, the criminal would be a target.  While the criminal would be safe from a citizen he has not attacked or injured in any way.

That's what probation is supposed to be about: seeing how (if) the ex-con can adjust to living as a free person on the 'outside'.

I rather liked the "three strikes and you are out law" because most of the stupid felonies did not count as a first strike.  You could sell heroin to six year old girls in return for sexual favors, and it is not a first strike.  Only real crimes, like burglary, counted as a strike.  As a result, most of the people who did commit two strikes, were people who really needed killing.

What happens is that the government inflates the category of "crime" beyond reason, so that everyone is a criminal.  So then it creates a new category, "felony" which at first corresponds to actual crimes, which it again inflates beyond all reason.  So then it needs to create a new category "strike", which again refers to actual crimes.

In anarcho capitalism, the cost of criminalizing something has to be carried by those criminalizing it, so presumably only things that needed criminalizing would be criminalized.  It follows that if habitual criminals tended to killed, no big problem.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: SandySandfort on November 01, 2010, 06:54:12 am
What happens is that the government inflates the category of "crime" beyond reason, so that everyone is a criminal.  So then it creates a new category, "felony" which at first corresponds to actual crimes, which it again inflates beyond all reason.  So then it needs to create a new category "strike", which again refers to actual crimes.

Bingo.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking the laws."
 - Ayn Rand in "Atlas Shrugged"
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: macsnafu on November 01, 2010, 08:45:04 am

In anarcho capitalism, the cost of criminalizing something has to be carried by those criminalizing it, so presumably only things that needed criminalizing would be criminalized. 

This is the most impressive thing that I've seen you post.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on November 01, 2010, 10:05:44 am
Sometimes you just have to trust a man. It used to be the custom that, when leaving prison, a man got back all his property - including his six-shooter and ammo. It was understood that he had "paid his debt" and had to deal peacefully with the rest of the world, or else he'd be back in prison or maybe in a small box, six feet long, six feet under.

 

Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: paddyfool on November 01, 2010, 12:02:13 pm
As a bonded labourer, it becomes hard to resist once you're disarmed and strapped in leg irons.  And if you've inherited a debt bond from your father and his father before him that keeps you effectively enslaved to someone, they've got ample incentive to restrict your options visavis getting out of it.

Any bonded labour imposed as a sentence should have a fixed limit on its duration, just like any other legal sentence, and this should override the limit of "until the debt is paid".  (Although paying it off as an incentive to "early" release should still work).

http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour.aspx
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: MacFall on November 01, 2010, 12:24:48 pm
Failing to pay a debt incurred through crime is - guess what - CRIMINAL. If a person has violated the rights of others the obligation incurred thereby overrides any arbitrary, unprincipled "time limit" which may be placed upon their time of service.

A debt cannot be justly passed on from one generation to another, however, and that is a separate issue.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on November 01, 2010, 03:52:03 pm
Sometimes you just have to trust a man. It used to be the custom that, when leaving prison, a man got back all his property - including his six-shooter and ammo. It was understood that he had "paid his debt" and had to deal peacefully with the rest of the world, or else he'd be back in prison or maybe in a small box, six feet long, six feet under.
That's true enough. This is not recognized today as much as it should be for two reasons: the penalties for crime are not sufficiently severe, and law-abiding citizens are disarmed.

A debt cannot be justly passed on from one generation to another, however, and that is a separate issue.
Yes. Of course, for an unpaid debt to reduce the size of an estate to zero is not passing the debt to the next generation - only trying to set it to a negative value is that.

Also, debts created through a crime indeed should be distinct from other debts. For the State to initiate force by creating a bankruptcy law might be excusable for voluntarily accepted debts, but it can't be justified for that kind of debt.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: dough560 on November 19, 2010, 08:03:56 am
Restitution is the goal.  The actual restitution will be set by the arbitrator.  The perps are responsible for finding employment to settle the debt and support themselves while doing so.  The arbitrator may have a list of businesses who would be interested in hiring the perps.  That doesn't mean the perps have to seek employment with those businesses.

In short, the acceptance of responsibility and societal assimilation.  ZAP in action.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: mellyrn on December 02, 2010, 04:05:14 pm
One thing the perps get out of cooperating is the standing to use the same process themselves, when and if they are ever victims.  Some of them won't see any value in that, of course, but many will.

Someone on another thread observed that "ivory tower" economists assumed (based on "prisoner's dilemma" studies) that humans wouldn't cooperate, but that simple observation of humans shows that we do cooperate, we just do.  I heartily recommend the works of Jerry Harvey (The Abilene Paradox, and others (http://www.amazon.com/Abilene-Paradox-Other-Meditations-Management/dp/0787902772)), who makes a powerful case for the fear of abandonment or being outcast as THE deepest human fear -- care to hear his story of how it was that fear that blew up the Challenger?

As with the "prisoner's-dilemma"-vs-real-human-behavior situation, we humans can act purely selfishly with no regard for a group -- and observation shows that we are much more likely to go along with our group.  That of course begs the question of who we think "our" group is.  Kinko and Lawrence appear to be absorbing (more or less unconsciously) the idea of themselves as Cerereans; Morris is not.  I'd expect Kinko and Lawrence also to think of the three of them as a group, but for Morris to regard the other two as merely useful.

What's to be done about the Morrises in our species, I don't know.  I think Kinko and Lawrence are the sort to be "testing their limits" -- finding out just how bad is "too bad to be included", and then staying more or less within those social norms.  And I think the threat of being denied use of the system, if they dishonor it, will carry weight with them (especially if it is merely implied, and not explicitly stated).
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Plane on December 02, 2010, 07:14:41 pm
Life on Ceres would depend a lot on co-operation.
People with a severe problem with other people would eventually find no one willing to open an airlock and let them in.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: BBQPidgey on December 03, 2010, 05:30:48 am
The following turns into a religious ramble. This particular knowledge set also tends to make people assume I'm Jewish. If I were, though, this would be considerably more detailed, as I would have studied enough to be able to point out exactly where everything is.

From page 1.
Biblical stories look mixed too. When the Israelites first conquered Canaan they took slaves, and some of the tribes living there tricked them into accepting them as slaves rather than kill them.

There are written injunctions among the laws not to enslave foreigners who visit Israel just because they are foreigners in Israel, not without some good reason. I don't recall any punishment listed for people who do it, the rule just says not to. Is it plausible that this might have happened a lot? The claim was that every 50 years all the slaves were supposed to be freed. If that was followed it would imply that the amount of credit offered to debtors would drop each year until the 50th year. When you can be enslaved for less than one year, you are worth much less than when you can go for 50 years if you live that long. But I don't know whether that custom was ever actually practiced. And anyway it would be only for Israelites who were enslaved for debts, and not for foreign slaves captured by the army or bought from foreigners.



Historically, no, the every 50 years thing wasn't practiced - it's not for no reason that they are repeatedly referred to as a 'stiff-necked people'. The laws in Torah and actual practices have been vastly different ever since it actually got written down.
Debts were supposed to be forgiven every 7 years, and after every 7th 7, the next year was where ALL slaves were freed, and all land that had been purchased or anything like that was returned to the original owner/their family. (Part of this was so that you wouldn't have one family end up with pretty well the whole country because another had fallen on hard times, or because they'd had a lot of daughters to pay dowry for rather than having sons that would've received it. The original layout of the country was, each tribe gets an area proportional to the number of people in it, and then they draw lots to see who gets which section - nobody lays claim to anything beforehand.)
Numerical significance of the 7 - 7 implies completion, and refers to Adonai. (lit. translation 'Lord' - but it's not the one that gets translated all in caps there.) 7 7s is... complete completion? (7 sets of 7 7s would imply the completest completion ever, though, because having something appear three times is like 'complete', 'completer' 'completest', or 'holy' 'holier' 'holiest' etc. etc.)

Add in, once they were actually in the holy land after the exodus, they were commanded to give 'the peace' to everyone. They weren't supposed to go out and conquer anything, but part of the covenant made between them and Adonai was 'if you turn away from me, there will be war, famine, death, etc.
Those that were in the land already when the israelites arrived, context in the original hebrew indicates they'd reached complete corruption by this point, and as such were cut out of the 'inheritance' of eternal life.

Oh, you mentioned not seeing any sort of punishment written for the violation of the law not to take slaves of foreigners as they entered the land. Anything without a specified punishment, the punishment is death. Eternal life is revoked, and only through the messiah can it be granted again. (A lot of the laws in there are ones that only ever apply if you've broken some other law, and have thus lost eternal life. Doing them was supposed to be an indication of repentance, submission to Adonai, etc. There are a lot less to keep if you never break any in the first place - and one of the requirements of the messiah prophecied there was that they would never break any in the first place.) Repeated offenses of certain things, punishment is death by execution or something similar, but for much of it, the law told the people not to pass judgment because it was Adonai's job.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Holt on December 05, 2010, 12:06:54 pm
To be honest the system sounds so open to exploitation it's not even remotely funny.

All it would take is some money and/or blackmail material. Before long you could build up a huge "bonded labourer" workforce.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on December 05, 2010, 05:26:31 pm
All it would take is some money and/or blackmail material. Before long you could build up a huge "bonded labourer" workforce.

If you have a large proportion of bonded laborers, you have a problem unless you have substantial support from the rest of society.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Holt on December 05, 2010, 06:36:32 pm
If you have a large proportion of bonded laborers, you have a problem unless you have substantial support from the rest of society.

Don't see how you have a problem. Not like the mass populace is going to rise up against you for the sake of "unsavoury characters"
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on December 06, 2010, 05:43:38 am
If you have a large proportion of bonded laborers, you have a problem unless you have substantial support from the rest of society.

Don't see how you have a problem. Not like the mass populace is going to rise up against you for the sake of "unsavoury characters"

The unsavory characters might rise up against you.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Holt on December 06, 2010, 09:32:44 am
The unsavory characters might rise up against you.

You'll notice that slave rebellions have varied in effectiveness through the centuries. The closer we get to the modern era the less effective they have been overall.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on December 06, 2010, 09:52:06 am
The unsavory characters might rise up against you.

You'll notice that slave rebellions have varied in effectiveness through the centuries. The closer we get to the modern era the less effective they have been overall.

There was the overthrow of Batista in Cuba. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran. The overthrow of Noriega in the Philippines. The overthrow of Somoza in Nicaragua. And a large handful of other examples.

How many slave rebellions succeeded in the old days? There was Haiti. Were there others?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on December 06, 2010, 03:58:55 pm
You'll notice that slave rebellions have varied in effectiveness through the centuries. The closer we get to the modern era the less effective they have been overall.

Historically, for slavery to be stable, you need free citizens who do not much like the slaves to outnumber the slaves about two to one.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Bob G on December 07, 2010, 02:30:45 am
There was the overthrow of Batista in Cuba. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran. The overthrow of Noriega in the Philippines. The overthrow of Somoza in Nicaragua. And a large handful of other examples.

Not political revolutions, J, slave revolts. Like Spartacus, Nat Turner, the Amistad mutiny. (Two out of three of which ultimately ended up badly for the slaves in question.)
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on December 07, 2010, 09:51:46 am
There was the overthrow of Batista in Cuba. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran. The overthrow of Noriega in the Philippines. The overthrow of Somoza in Nicaragua. And a large handful of other examples.

Not political revolutions, J, slave revolts. Like Spartacus, Nat Turner, the Amistad mutiny. (Two out of three of which ultimately ended up badly for the slaves in question.)

Haiti was both, right? The slaves revolted and took over the government. How else can a slave revolt succeed?

You can argue that the cubans and the nicaraguans and the filipinos weren't slaves. I guess there's a fine shading of meaning there. They mostly didn't have private masters, but there was somebody who could do whatever he wanted with them and they had no recourse. You could argue that they still weren't nations of slaves. You could make that argument. But then aren't we left with only one single example in the last few hundred years where the slaves won?
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: sams on December 07, 2010, 11:16:04 am
The unsavory characters might rise up against you.

You'll notice that slave rebellions have varied in effectiveness through the centuries. The closer we get to the modern era the less effective they have been overall.

There was the overthrow of Batista in Cuba. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran. The overthrow of Noriega in the Philippines. The overthrow of Somoza in Nicaragua. And a large handful of other examples.

How many slave rebellions succeeded in the old days? There was Haiti. Were there others?


First Batista was succeeded by Fidel Castro who's people is so ''free'' that they don't have the right to escape from the country  ::)

Kind of weird that the only society on earth which looks like Slavery is North Korea and revolt is not possible there
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: quadibloc on December 07, 2010, 05:12:48 pm
I suspect that on the Earth of the United Worlds, one of the forms of entertainment banned as a corrupting influence is the Western. Morris would have known that his plan is not a good idea in the Belt.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: J Thomas on December 07, 2010, 08:17:23 pm
The unsavory characters might rise up against you.

You'll notice that slave rebellions have varied in effectiveness through the centuries. The closer we get to the modern era the less effective they have been overall.

There was the overthrow of Batista in Cuba. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran. The overthrow of Noriega in the Philippines. The overthrow of Somoza in Nicaragua. And a large handful of other examples.

How many slave rebellions succeeded in the old days? There was Haiti. Were there others?


First Batista was succeeded by Fidel Castro who's people is so ''free'' that they don't have the right to escape from the country  ::)

Yes, and Haiti didn't do all that well after they threw out the slavers either. Not to say they would have done better as slaves.

Quote
Kind of weird that the only society on earth which looks like Slavery is North Korea and revolt is not possible there

I don't know whether revolt is possible there. I won't find out unless it happens.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Plane on December 08, 2010, 12:43:49 am
Quote
BBQPidgey....


Between the time that Moses led and the time that kings arose Was there a time of anarcy in Isreal?

Two or three generations in which government was very local and there was no king?

Some of these scriptures seem to indicate that Anarcy was the  governmental form preferred by the Lord, but that the people clamored and prayed to have a king.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: jamesd on December 08, 2010, 09:27:50 pm
Haiti was both, right? The slaves revolted and took over the government. How else can a slave revolt succeed?

In practice, slave revolts generally succeed in a less dramatic manner, in that slave owning becomes more dangerous and less popular, and it gets a lot easier for slaves to earn their freedom.

Recall that the revolting slaves in Haiti were looking for a compromise that would have left whites in charge of the government and in possession of their non human property, and instead things went to hell because the whites failed to compromise.  The slaves were not seeking a total victory, but instead blundered into total victory unintentionally, and with quite disastrous consequences.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: Azure Priest on December 21, 2010, 07:40:27 am

Kind of weird that the only society on earth which looks like Slavery is North Korea.

Nope. Kenya, Sudan, Syria and various African countries still practice slavery. The form is this, the "right" religion moves into a village, kills the men, rapes then kills the women, and takes the children away as loot. Ironically many of these nations are on the "human rights" council of the UN.
Title: Re: SLAVERY ! have you no shame !!!!
Post by: terry_freeman on December 22, 2010, 05:15:09 am

Kind of weird that the only society on earth which looks like Slavery is North Korea.

Nope. Kenya, Sudan, Syria and various African countries still practice slavery. The form is this, the "right" religion moves into a village, kills the men, rapes then kills the women, and takes the children away as loot. Ironically many of these nations are on the "human rights" council of the UN.

That's an example of regulatory capture, of course. What better place for a fox than "coop, administration of"?