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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: jamming on August 28, 2009, 04:24:36 pm

Title: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: jamming on August 28, 2009, 04:24:36 pm
Pashtunwali like many systems of honor or culture can be used for good or bad.  Many women from a western culture would find it not as oppressive as Saudi Arabia.  However, having lived among the Pashtun in areas of Afghanistan, there can be no nicer people if you respect their pride and culture.  No quicker enemy if you threaten their culture and beliefs.  Hope to heck that the elders never have to consider a misstep made by an outsider, justice doesn't wait after it has been decided.  However blood feuds are common.  It is not a perfect culture, it has its problems but also its admirable qualities.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on August 28, 2009, 10:49:19 pm
I used to get Soldier of Fortune back when the Soviet Union was getting the messy end of the stick in Afghanistan and read about what the American war correspondents thought of them.  Almost suicidally brave and honest to a fault, they would make either a very good friends or a very bad enemies depending on your intentions.  If the U.S. military is smart they will remember what happened to the British there about a hundred and twenty years ago and get on the good side of them.  :)
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Sean Roach on August 28, 2009, 11:18:32 pm
I read up on it in Wikipedia.  What I read sounded like nice neighbors to have.
The US needs to not just GET on their good side, but STAY on their good side, in my opinion.
Something we've never been good at.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: jrl on August 29, 2009, 12:13:06 pm
I've only read a couple internet articles which made them sound a lot like some Ozark or Appalachian folks, if in a more codified way. Hill country Americans have pretty much given up on the blood feuds, but a grudge can none-the-less be carried for generations..

Definitely folks where it pays to stay on their good side. . .

Unfortunately, that is just about impossible with the kind of collateral damage inherent in areal bombing and missile attacks. . . I have to say, if my family was bombed, we would fight the offender 'till either they were destroyed or we were all dead.

At the same time I was perplexed as to why the 9-11 attack was such an enormous deal: There couldn't be THAT many relatives of the victims.

I've occasionally wondered if there isn't a connection between landscape and the attitudes of people, with commonalities between hill people all over the world, likewise for coastal people, plains people, mountain people, etc.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Sean Roach on August 29, 2009, 02:33:15 pm
I suspect so.  I'm pretty sure surroundings shape behavior.  I've noticed a correlation between large population density and a tenancy to vote left, by the current meaning of the term.  More tolerance of neighbors...passtimes, but less tolerance for self defense, or the ability to defend oneself.

There's an annual event in the Nevada desert, the Burning Man festival.  Something they've noticed is attendees tend to be rather neighborly when they're all dumped in what amounts to a giant waterless reflector oven.  Likewise, put a bunch of people in rolling metal boxes with discreet tint along the top of the front windows, so they can't truly SEE each other, and you get all sorts of hostility over such simple things as precedence in line at a stop signal.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: KBCraig on August 31, 2009, 06:28:14 am
I used to get Soldier of Fortune back when the Soviet Union was getting the messy end of the stick in Afghanistan and read about what the American war correspondents thought of them.  Almost suicidally brave and honest to a fault, they would make either a very good friends or a very bad enemies depending on your intentions.  If the U.S. military is smart they will remember what happened to the British there about a hundred and twenty years ago and get on the good side of them.  :)

Rudyard Kipling had plenty to say about geting on their bad side... definitely not recommended.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on August 31, 2009, 08:50:53 am
At the same time I was perplexed as to why the 9-11 attack was such an enormous deal: There couldn't be THAT many relatives of the victims.

Are you sure you're not a Pashtun?

Other factors were involved in the American reaction to September 11, 2001 than the number of Americans who were relatives of, or personally acquainted with, someone who died in the attacks.

For example, many Americans work in other office towers, or have family members who work in other office towers. Thus, they quite reasonably think that they could just as easily have been among the victims.

As well, for a period of time after the attacks, there was some uncertainty over their source. Without a clear idea of who caused those attacks, and what their capabilities are, the possibility that those attacks were just the first of many could not be eliminated. Thus, air travel in the United States was shut down for a couple of days after September 11, 2001.

While, sadly, the United States suffers from a high crime rate, except for Pearl Harbor and an isolated Japanese landing in the Aleutians, its territory has not experienced an act of war since the Civil War. It's true that there have been other acts of domestic terrorism before the bombing in Oklahoma of the Albert Murrah Federal Building.

But, for example, not many people even remember the bombing, by a couple of segregationist loonies, of a synagogue in Atlanta on October 12, 1958 - to take one random example. (I only know of it because a book commemorating its importance in the development of the civil rights struggle happened to be in a used book store I go to.)

In the number of casualties, the attacks of September 11, 2001 were on the same order of magnitude as Pearl Harbor: 2,403 people died as the result of the Pearl Harbor attacks, and 2,993 died as the result of September 11. (Until I looked it up now, I had thought it was the other way around, with about 2,000 people dying as the result of September 11, and about 3,000 dying as the result of Pearl Harbor, from what I remembered hearing and reading earlier.)

Because the United States is an organized modern nation, and not simply a territory filled with loose-knit tribal villages, what happens to other Americans, even if they're strangers, has an effect similar - although not quite as intense, admittedly - to something happening to a relative. The modern nation-state is intended to function, and largely does function, as though it is a single tribe.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Brugle on August 31, 2009, 11:57:01 am
quadibloc,
Aren't you overgeneralizing?  While many Americans (including famous government and media figures) did react to the 9/11 attacks like uneducated tribesmen, many did not.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on August 31, 2009, 08:09:40 pm
While many Americans (including famous government and media figures) did react to the 9/11 attacks like uneducated tribesmen, many did not.

It was not my intention to characterize their reaction in that manner. I was noting that it was not necessary for people to have relatives who were killed in the attacks to be profoundly affected by them, and as a basis for that, I gave background related to the manner in which the modern nation state is organized.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 01, 2009, 09:34:09 pm
"its territory has not experienced an act of war since the Civil War."
  I don't believe that's quite true.  If I remember my history the Japanese in about 1943-44 sent a number of balloons with small incendiary bombs out over the pacific to hopefully (for them) set forest fires in the United States pacific northwest.  A group of schoolchildren came upon one of them and the teacher was killed and a number of the children were wounded.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on September 01, 2009, 10:33:40 pm
I don't believe that's quite true.  If I remember my history the Japanese in about 1943-44 sent a number of balloons with small incendiary bombs out over the pacific to hopefully (for them) set forest fires in the United States pacific northwest.

Yes, you are correct. I forgot about that one. However, this relatively little-known part of American history still wouldn't have the kind of psychological impact that an armed invasion would, and so it's still true that Americans would tend to think of their country as having been nearly unscathed by war for a very long time.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 02, 2009, 10:44:12 am
Also true.  I remember reading a while back that in the Balkans where fighting has been going on almost every generation since like forever that there was an incident from about 600 years ago that was so horrific that it's called something about blackbirds (carrion)  The serbs and croatians still use that as a answer when someone from the outside asks why they hate each other so much.  If Americans had gone through the same type of experience I wonder if we would be feeling the same way towards our enemies as them.  :P
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Ike on September 02, 2009, 12:59:52 pm
The emotions which remain after - how many? - generations since the Civil War ought to give a hint that we're not quite so "civilized" as we might believe.  We are, more likely, very lucky and the beneficiaries of the hard work of a large number of people.  We enjoy a much more "civil" civilization than many, both current and defunct.  We enjoy a level of material well-being undreamed of even by emperors in the past.  We enjoy enough leisure time to seriously seek spiritual well-being, which was formerly only possible if you withdrew from the world's travails and depended upon either the generosity of strangers - e.g., Buddhist monks - or being supported by the current tyrant - e.g., Christian cloistered monestaries - and then only for a fortunate few.  Our air, water and soil are cleaner than they have ever been.  (And please don't quibble with me about unproven and/or imaginary dangers from chemicals measured in the picograms which we have only recently been able to measure or detect; if they had any significant effects on health, there'd be a large number of otherwise unexplained deaths and defects.)  The incidence of cancers is lower than before, although more absolute number of cases because more of us are living long enough to die from it now.  The infectious diseases which plagued my childhood are almost extinct and more children now die from unforeseen lethal reactions to the vaccines than do from the diseases.

So let's not wax too eloquent in our praise of cultures and societies where women are still property and children still die from preventable illnesses and the water is too filthy to wash in let alone drink, etc etc.  Re-listen to Gordon Lightfoot's Canadian Trilogy and consider the truths to which it refers.  And remember where we live and what we enjoy and how it came to be and how it is maintained.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on September 02, 2009, 11:42:24 pm
When people live in a poor country, and for some reason, people from another religious and ethnic group come in and commit a massacre... and then the government doesn't come in and hunt down the perpetrators... of course people belonging to the group that were the victims is going to retaliate in the only way they can - killing a bunch of innocent people belonging to the other group.

Whether in India, Nigeria, Rwanda, or the Balkans, the attitude of people from the West when this happens often is to use that as "proof" that both sides are equally bad. The idea that there is an enormous difference between those who kill innocent people out of the blue on a day when everything is peaceful... and those who do what they can to survive, that if they are attacked, it will come at a cost... doesn't seem to be realized by those who don't share their precarious situation.

"He started it" isn't a childish irrelevancy.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: ObscureDragom on September 03, 2009, 08:36:58 pm
While, sadly, the United States suffers from a high crime rate, except for Pearl Harbor and an isolated Japanese landing in the Aleutians, its territory has not experienced an act of war since the Civil War. It's true that there have been other acts of domestic terrorism before the bombing in Oklahoma of the Albert Murrah Federal Building.

Now, at one point shortly after the 9/11 attacks Bill Clinton had an interview on David Letterman.

He broke his security agreement.

He admited that events similar to 9/11 happened everynow and then, he even mentioned an airport (I think it was Atlanta) that had been shut down for a weekend after a gunfight.

It's just that they where normally caught before anything really happened.

For the first time since the attacks I was calmed since I could finally stop thinking of the American government as a bunch of incompetent rubes that ate taxes and only offered helplessly blind military might and a police force that enforced laws that failed to reflect the moral values of the majority.

That they have any measure of subtlety, precisision or competency is surely a national secret.

I don't think Clinton has been on live Television since.  Damn I miss that guy.

Anyway, the point is that the US does get touched by war and foreign terrorism more frequently then it might be stated, it just keeps it under wraps.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 04, 2009, 01:58:48 pm
For governments not to make a lot of noise over terrorists incidents that almost but not quite happen is totally normal.  There was a movie about a airplane hijacking about thirty or forty years ago that caused attemped hijackings to increase every time that it was shown in movie theaters nearby.  The name of it excapes me.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on September 06, 2009, 07:57:49 pm
There was a movie about a airplane hijacking about thirty or forty years ago that caused attemped hijackings to increase every time that it was shown in movie theaters nearby.

And that's why the "security experts" who say that the increased security in airports is a waste of time and money are wrong.

Yes, al-Qaeda can think of many other places to strike.

Yes, now that we know airplane hijackers can do other things than just fly to Cuba, passengers will be more determined to ensure they will never get control of the aircraft.

But a dramatic event in real life on the order of the attack of September 11, 2001, which by its very nature cannot help but receive vast publicity... runs the risk of inspiring copycat attacks in large numbers.

If your office building is destroyed by an airplane that was crashed into it... by someone upset because his girlfriend left him, instead of an al-Qaeda terrorist... you're still just as dead.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: J Thomas on September 07, 2009, 07:02:28 am
Yes, now that we know airplane hijackers can do other things than just fly to Cuba, passengers will be more determined to ensure they will never get control of the aircraft.

But a dramatic event in real life on the order of the attack of September 11, 2001, which by its very nature cannot help but receive vast publicity... runs the risk of inspiring copycat attacks in large numbers.

I don't think so.

We got copycat hijackings in the old days because it didn't take much. You get on a plane and announce you're hijacking it. Everybody does what you say for awhile because they don't know what you'd do and they're willing to spend aviation fuel and long hours of a few hundred people's lives to avoid problems. Then after it's over either you're in a country that lets you go free or you're in for years and years of legal problems. People who're interested in avoiding years of legal hassle and jailtime won't do it, but people who don't care about that or who don't think ahead might do it.

But now the stakes are higher, so people won't cooperate. Try to hijack a plane and they don't just say "Yessir Mr. Hijacker, what can we do for you in the short run before you get caught?", they try to kill you. You have to stop everybody who tries to kill you, and get into the cabin and kill the pilots, and then pilot the plane yourself from that point on. It's a great big effort with no help from anybody.

If we publicised bank robberies we'd probably get copycat bank robberies. When I looked at the online police records for my town for a couple of months I found a lot of people reporting suspicious guys on the street, and a few auto thefts and such, and two bank robberies. People would go into a bank and demand money, and they'd get maybe a few thousand dollars and leave, and then they'd get caught. You don't need a gun to do a bank robbery, all you need is a piece of paper that says "This is a stickup give me all your money". Maybe people do it as a way to get into jail. It looks pretty easy. If you actually had to have a gun, and you had to shoot a guard, and they had alarm bells and police sirens and people actually shooting at you until you surrendered, I bet it wouldn't happen nearly as much.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 08, 2009, 01:09:12 pm
Reminds me of a story that I heard about many years ago.  Some clown tried to hijack a Philippines commuter airliner with a knife and made the mistake of stabbing a pregnant flight attendant.  The passengers were so outraged that they overpowered him, took the knife away and threw him off the plane....at about 10 thousand feet.  Ouch.  ;D
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on September 12, 2009, 07:53:12 pm
Good things do happen, If you wait long enough.  (No, I'm not PC)  Just hope no innocents were hurt at the landing sight.

Yeah, Airport security did such a great job several thousand people died.  Government enforced helplessness is as responsible for their deaths as the terrorists.  The comments in the " Probability Broach" about hijacking were never more apt.

By the way, Air Marshals carry conventional hollow point ammunition.  Nothing rated as safe to aerospace materials.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on September 12, 2009, 08:15:29 pm
By the way, Air Marshals carry conventional hollow point ammunition.  Nothing rated as safe to aerospace materials.

True. But hollow point bullets have a tendency to stay in the hijacker rather than pierce the aerospace materials behind him. I presume they're also well-trained, and expected to have good aim.

As for government enforced helplessness, if we didn't have regulations forbidding ordinary people from carrying loaded handguns on planes, this wouldn't guarantee that there would be someone there armed well enough to stop a hijacker. Although banning plastic knives for meals was a bit much.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: wdg3rd on September 13, 2009, 08:52:44 pm
By the way, Air Marshals carry conventional hollow point ammunition.  Nothing rated as safe to aerospace materials.

True. But hollow point bullets have a tendency to stay in the hijacker rather than pierce the aerospace materials behind him. I presume they're also well-trained, and expected to have good aim.

Your "presumption" is flat-out crap.  Air marshals are no better trained than street cops (both categories are experts in the movies, not in real life -- NYPD releases 41 bullets, gets 9 hits on a guy reaching for a cell phone rather than ducking, for example).  Which means that I am a better shot and I don't claim to be a handgun marksman (though I'm fairly good with a pistol [after three practice shots with a fresh piece I've never missed a target the size of a face at fifty yards with .45 ACP], I'm excellent with a rifle).
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: terry_freeman on September 14, 2009, 12:22:50 am
In the movies, you make one tiny hole in the aircraft, and the repulsive villian is sucked out the window. In real life, according to a pilot friend of mine, it isn't that horrible an event, and planes have landed safely with a blown-out window.

I like to think that anybody who fires a gun in an aircraft would not attempt a 50-yard shot.

I wonder who the air marshals think they're kidding? They always fly first-class; I never have any trouble spotting the air marshal; he's the burly guy who doesn't belong in first class. 

Arming pilots makes a lot more sense.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Scott on September 14, 2009, 01:31:01 am
While a gun-fight in an airliner does present the danger that an over-penetrating bullet may hit an innocent bystander (good reason to load hollow-points or even glasers), there is practically no danger to the aircraft. Mythbusters demonstrated that even two or three shots fired through a window will not cause the window to blow out resulting in catastrophic decompression. And aircraft engineers tell us that even six or seven bullet holes in the fuselage will not affect cabin pressure significantly.

Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: J Thomas on September 14, 2009, 06:37:32 pm
I wonder who the air marshals think they're kidding? They always fly first-class; I never have any trouble spotting the air marshal; he's the burly guy who doesn't belong in first class. 

Arming pilots makes a lot more sense.

It's been awhile since I've flown on an airliner. One of the last times they were spot-checking passengers and the dice roll came up for my baby, and they held her and looked in her diaper. What with one thing and another it hasn't been worth the trouble going back much.

But the last time I thought the little guy with the sullen face who sat at the very back was probably an air marshal. He wore a vest and a string tie and he looked like he had a bulge under his arm. He looked like he was always pissed off and he made it clear he didn't like me to look at him.

But maybe he wasn't. I'm not sure how to tell who's an air marshal. It didn't seem like they'd think it was my business.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 14, 2009, 11:41:57 pm
While a gun-fight in an airliner does present the danger that an over-penetrating bullet may hit an innocent bystander (good reason to load hollow-points or even glasers), there is practically no danger to the aircraft. Mythbusters demonstrated that even two or three shots fired through a window will not cause the window to blow out resulting in catastrophic decompression. And aircraft engineers tell us that even six or seven bullet holes in the fuselage will not affect cabin pressure significantly.
  Their was an incident about 6 or 7 years ago I think where a Aloha airlines aircraft landing in Hawaii with an incredible amount of damage to it.  The entire center rear of the aircraft was ripped away, an area about 15 feet long as I remember seeing it.  They only had one person die who was sucked out.  You should be able to find a picture of it on the internet somewhere.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: SandySandfort on September 15, 2009, 12:13:46 am
Their was an incident about 6 or 7 years ago I think where a Aloha airlines aircraft landing in Hawaii with an incredible amount of damage to it.  The entire center rear of the aircraft was ripped away, an area about 15 feet long as I remember seeing it.  They only had one person die who was sucked out.  You should be able to find a picture of it on the internet somewhere.

Amazing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on September 15, 2009, 10:32:06 am
Yea, As a pilot myself, it amazed me too that the captain was actually able to bring it down in one piece.  I'm sure though it was one rough ride for everyone involved.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: KBCraig on September 21, 2009, 03:15:21 am
Aircraft are not hermetically sealed pressure chambers. They leak, constantly, and are continually replenished from outside air. If they didn't, transcontinental passengers would asphyxiate just as if they'd been locked in a refrigerator.

Modern sealed-skin aircraft are pressurized with "bleed air" from the turbine engines, and have "outflow valves" which allow the continuous exchange of air between outside and inside. The outflow valves on a 737/757-class aircraft are about 2 square feet in area when fully opened. The compressors are designed to keep the aircraft fully pressurized at operating altitude, with the outflow valves fully open.

In other words, you could blow out three windows, or a section roughly the area of a carry-on bag, and the plane would lose zero pressure inside.

The idea of a venturi-like effect because of the 500 mph windflow across the skin is also silly: an airplane contains only a limited amount of air, and as soon as the pressure equalizes, there is nothing left to "suck out".

http://www.thegunzone.com/091101/goldfinger.html
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: KBCraig on September 21, 2009, 03:22:05 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on November 09, 2009, 09:23:20 am
A family member is an Air Marshall.  He and I have discussed their firearms training several times.  As shooters, these guys definitely maintain proficiency in the top 10% of shooters.  Many of them would make the top 1% cutoff.  That level of shooting is required of them to retain their jobs.

On the other hand, your Average Local Police Officer shoots well enough to keep the job.  New York is a case in point.

If you follow several of the shooting disciplines,  you will notice police officers shoot in a separate class from other shooters.  Very seldom do you see officers making the top 10% in open competition.  They even have competitions only open to law enforcement personnel.

However every department has their share of  Top Guns.  These guys constantly practice and study.  They end up the guy everyone goes to with gun problems, for help with annual or semi-annual qualification, on the SWAT Team, as the armorer or range master.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on November 09, 2009, 10:50:47 am
Federal Ammunition used to make the Nyclad ammo that would be ideal for the Air Marshal program.  I'm not sure if they make it anymore.  They take an undersized pure lead hollow point bullet and put a thin nylon sheath over it.  As soon as the bullet strike something the nylon splits apart and the pure lead HP opens rapidly up.  Just the right amount of penetration for a hostage situation in an aircraft.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: quadibloc on November 10, 2009, 07:27:17 am
Federal Ammunition used to make the Nyclad ammo that would be ideal for the Air Marshal program.  I'm not sure if they make it anymore.

I didn't think that Federal Air Marshals used .38 caliber weapons, even if one might think that smaller would be better in that context, but when I searched for this to have a better understanding of what you were discussing, I got results indicating that they recently reintroduced this type of bullet at the beginning of this year after a lengthy absence.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on November 27, 2009, 07:14:14 am
Rocketman, the Nyclad ammunition was made and marketed by Smith & Wesson.  A buddy of mine is hoarding several boxes of the stuff.  It was a nylon jacket over a pure lead core.  It was available as wad-cutter, semi-wad-cutter and hollow point ammunition in .38 and .357 mag.  I think it was also available in 9mm and .45 acp as ball and hollow point loads.

I've also heard someone was going to start producing it again.  Do you remember who?  It wouldn't surprise me if S&W's former owners had sold the rights to this ammo.  As I remember, Nyclad ammunition would expand at any reasonable velocity.  For their time and  bullet design, the performance was excellent.  If it is brought back with modern bullet designs, it would be worth having.  The original stuff was in many ways ahead of its time.

When I last talked with the family member, the  Air Marshal pistol is a Sig Sauer Pistol in .357 Sig (40 S&W case necked down to 9mm) with a 125 grain bullet.   I was told they wear one pistol out during training and get a new one when they graduate.  They get .357 magnum terminal performance in a semi-automatic pistol with a higher than revolver ammunition capacity.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: jamming on December 03, 2009, 02:49:41 am
My thread was Hijacked!!!
 ::) ;)
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on December 03, 2009, 12:47:30 pm
     I have some Nyclad hollow point 9mm that I'm keeping.  After seeing the performance for myself at a demonstration I'm convinced that it is the ideal round if you have to engage someone not wearing body armor or not more than say 350 pounds.  I'm glad that hear someone is bringing it back but since I don't follow that area as much as I used to I don't know who.  Sorry.
     I'm a little suprised that the air marshal's are using a .357 sig round though.  I would have guessed that it would have been considered too much penetration.  I would have gone with a 185 grain hollowpoint .45acp in a glock model 30 if it had been my decision to make.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on December 04, 2009, 05:23:59 am
The 125 grain, 357 Sig behaves very similar to the 125 grain, 357 mag.  The difference in performance mainly due to the 357 Sig, hollow point cavity being jacketed where the law enforcement 357 mag, is a half jacket with the hollow point being formed in the exposed lead.  The 357 Sig is fully jacketed to reduce the possibility of the round jamming on the feed ramp of the pistol.  Both rounds meet the FBI standard of 12 to 14 inches of penetration of the body cavity, through heavy clothes.  Due to the fully jacketed bullet, the Sig round will begin upsetting/expanding approximately two inches further into the targets body cavity then the 357 mag which begins expanding earlier due to the half jacket.

My family member doesn't have a problem with the 357 Sig, but he too would prefer a Glock.  I'd probably stay with a 1911, like the Para P13 or Tac 4 in .45 ACP, with the 165  or  230 grain hydro-shock.  No +P rounds.

My CCW is a self modified Para P13 with 230 grain hydro-shocks.  I'm old fashioned that way.   ;)
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on December 04, 2009, 09:39:52 am
I'm more old fashioned that you.  My standard CCW during wintertime is a Smith and Wesson model 25 (.45acp) with a cutback 4" barrel carrying 6 Winchester silvertip hollowpoints.  I also have four full moon clips of silvertip ammo for spares.  8)
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on December 11, 2009, 03:41:05 am
Silver tips are good stuff.  I suspect you also had a few other personal touches added to the model 25.  I like the 140grain 357mags.  Use the 175s in a model 58.  225s (Long Colt) in a model 25-7 and a marlin carbine & rifle.  Handgun or long arm I can keep them in a coffee cup at 25 yards or a dinner plate at 100 yards.  Winchester used to offer silver-tips in bulk packs for the re-loader market.  Don't know if they still do.  Know any good sources for bullets or ammo?  Local stores are sold out.  If they do have anything, its ball ammo and its selling for more than what I bought my last batch of hydro-shocks for.  Premium performance ammo has hit all time highs.  Except for the liability issues, I'd as soon download some sledge-hammer rounds.  I know they're intended for hunting, but downloading should reduce the risk of over penetration.

My primary house gun is a five inch 625.  During warm weather, I load it with glasser safety slugs.  The follow-up moon clips are loaded with hydro-shocks.  When the cold weather rolls in, I just use the hydro-shocks.  Federal and Cor-Bon  both have expanding  jacketed rounds I've been hearing good things about.  Again the shelves are empty.

We were at the range a few weeks ago.  Jo, my eight year old, was working with the .22 rifle.  I started  verifying zeroes with the revolvers.  We were using the same target at about 20 yards.  I fired two moons of ammo.  Jo stopped shooting, frowned, then got up and walked to the back of the shooting bench where the spotting scope was set up.  Looked at the target with the scope, tuned to me, put her hands on her hips and said, "Dad! I was shooting there and now the center of the target is gone.  You get your own target and leave mine alone!

I am very proud of her. 
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: Rocketman on December 11, 2009, 11:29:44 am
Not too much out of stock on the 25 because it had been a cop's gun and he and I had similar tastes.  I did put a set of slim rubber Pachmayr grips on it and had the action slicked up which cut about a half pound off the DA trigger pull.  My 28 is the customed one.  I had at the time the chief armorer of the Indiana State Police install a spring kit on it and slick up the action.  DA on it now is just beautiful.  It has a set of wide rubber Pachmayr grips on it.  Both guns carry MMC high visibility adjustable sights replacing the standard S&W originals.  Where ever I end up their coming with me.   ;D
As far as finding ammo I basically don't buy it anymore because I reload since I've cut way back on shooting.  If you have gun shows in your area then I would go to them and get everything that you need.  I have some really old guns that were my grandfathers that I take out an shoot once in a great while. Those I use cast bullets.  Most use the 131 grain lead made for the M-1 carbine with a gas check bullet on them.  I've noticed that when fired into a clay bank that they really open up fast.  From what I've seen if it wasn't for the lawyer on the opposite side making a scene about "Ordinary bullets weren't deadly enough for him, he had to use even more deadly bullets!!"  I think I would make up a bunch and have them in the home defense rifle.
Title: Re: What do you know about Pashtunwali?
Post by: dough560 on December 12, 2009, 02:44:28 am
Ambulance chasers are always a pain.  Supposidly, Federal recently produced some .30 M1 Carbine ammunition with 110 grain gold dots.  My buddy in Michigan uses a custom M1 Carbine for his house gun.  We've been watching for it to hit the shelves.

Back in my body-guard days I used a Styer SSG .308  with 100 or 110 grain half-jacket plinkers.  They were intended for short to medium range work in built-up areas.  Over-penetration and civil liability, don't you know.  A local custom smith and I were talking the other day.  He recently took part in a SWAT shooting training review.  Part of the materials included an incident where the sniper team was moving to a hide, when they encountered the suspect moving down a  hallway.  When they confronted by the suspect, he tried engage.  The cops responded with one round to the head.  It was a Hornady  110Grain .308 Tap.  No Exit wound.  It took better than 10 years for a commercial company to duplicate what I was doing with hand-loads back in the 80's.

If things work out this summer, my revolvers are going back to S&W for rebuilds and custom work.  All of them will get action jobs and be converted to double action only triggers.  I mainly use Pachmayr Decelerator or Jordan Grips on the revolvers.  The sights I'm converting to a Tritium/Fiber Optic front sight and an express blade in the rear sight.  I'd like to add a Tritium Bar or Dot under the center of the rear sight V.  I can't see notch and post sights as well as I used to .  Short of switching to an electronic sight like the Doctur Optic.  This seems to be the best sight combination for me.