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Online Comics => Escape From Terra => Topic started by: Leviathan on November 19, 2008, 12:16:57 am

Title: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 19, 2008, 12:16:57 am
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 19, 2008, 09:01:34 am
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D
He once knew better, but years of pro-state propaganda in government schools and popular culture have paved it over. So now he is about to be put on an accelerated learning curve...
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 20, 2008, 12:45:40 am
...  I think this has just gone off "learning curve" and become a learning cliff  :o  Their speculation that they might be able to convert Ms. Stellina is I suspect either proving to be an understatement, or that Heinleinian Hyper-Competent Femme competence is about to clue her in on just how much a variant the Cerereans (wtf is the term, anyway?) are from Terrans.

Learning cliff:
(http://www.sgnonline.com/vb3/upload/1347da2b7fd4659.jpg)
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 20, 2008, 07:16:08 am
... Cerereans (wtf is the term, anyway?)...

Bingo, front row. Cerereans it is.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 21, 2008, 01:09:38 am
Oooh, Heinleinian Hyper-Competent Femme already had a clue!  "Oh, daddy, can't I please have this fully-automatic flechette dolly?  I'll be really good!  I'll even eat my vegetables!"  I love that panel.

Something tells me that at some point, Guy and Fiorella are gonna end up on opposite sides of this one.  I mean, she's already going native  ;D
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 21, 2008, 07:54:27 am
Something tells me that at some point, Guy and Fiorella are gonna end up on opposite sides of this one.  I mean, she's already going native  ;D
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Life is full of surprises.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Technomad on November 21, 2008, 07:34:05 pm
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: enemyofthestate on November 21, 2008, 09:41:58 pm
Gee.  I wonder how the best Terran fabrics could possibly be equivalent to the bargain bin on Ceres  ;D  Could it possibly be that free competition encourages innovation?  Guy doesn't even seem to comprehend what "bargain bin" or "sale" mean  :D
Without gravity to interfere it is possible to more precisely control the growth of polymers.  Or the composition of metal alloys. Or semiconductors.

Or progressive burning propellants for that matter.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 22, 2008, 02:45:44 am
EotS, heh, my point was that without the persistent threat of the state, innovators not only continue innovating but they have more incentive to do so in order to try and establish their own supply/demand curve (though they wouldn't necessarily understand that's what they're doing).  And those who aren't so innovative, have incentive to copy the hell out of the highly successful.  It keeps innovation up, but prices down.  Because

Technomad, they have wide, open avenues. 
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: wdg3rd on November 23, 2008, 07:47:11 pm
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 

The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting.  Though I may be confusing Sandy's version with El Neil's (but I think there was some inspiration, I'm pretty sure Sandy has read The Venus Belt and I know damned well Scott has).
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 24, 2008, 10:20:42 am
In an enclosed place like that seems to be, why would anybody want a long gun? 

The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting.  Though I may be confusing Sandy's version with El Neil's (but I think there was some inspiration, I'm pretty sure Sandy has read The Venus Belt and I know damned well Scott has).
With proper preparation and care, you can fire guns in space. (Keep it warm enough not to shatter when fired.) Long guns come in handy when you have to deal with space pirates.  ;)

Yeah, I read Venus Belt, but at my advanced age, I only remember it on a subconscious level. This allows me to "borrow" freely, without feeling guilty.  :-\
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Rocketman on November 24, 2008, 06:33:34 pm



The purpose of a handgun is to hold off the bad guys until you can reach your rifle.  I have my disagreements with Ken Royce, but he's right on the money with that one.

Ceres is a big place.  Plenty of room for long range shooting. 


I totally agree with Ken too.  And also something to consider is that in the very weak gravity well a bullet will also travel a lot further before it comes to the ground.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 24, 2008, 08:11:12 pm
Actually, the gravity is damned low.  Escape velocity on Ceres is 0.51km/s.  This translates out to 1673.23ft/s.  The NRA factsheet (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DomnaAntoniadis.shtml) lists some common muzzle velocities, and three of their guns fire fast enough to achieve escape velocity.  The .223 Remington, the 30-06 Springfield, and the 44 Magnum.  I'm sure there are others, as the list here (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE8.html) lists quite a few, and disagrees with some of the NRA's numbers.  Take them with a grain of salt either way, but they do both agree that given a "flat" surface on Ceres, quite a lot of rounds won't ever hit the dirt.

This page (http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/planets_dwarf_ceres.html) is a handy fact sheet for other fans, heh.  It seems I'd weigh about ten pounds on Ceres.  With a 9hr day, there might be a significant enough coriolis effect to curve shots.  Probably not enough to throw anybody seriously off in a firefight, but a shooting league probably has to figure coriolis in for target shooting.  Pull right if facing Cererean north, pull left if south.  Shoot high if facing east, low if west.

Sandy et al, have you thought about Heinleinian tube transport?  I think in Cat Who Walks Through Walls, he explained that for wider transit, the tube system uses a gauss gun at the start to accelerate to orbital velocity, keeps the capsule in a vacuum during the trip, and then pulls the energy back off at the other end.  Virtually zero energy lost in the transit except the efficiency of the stators at start and finish.  The Cererean Spud-shape might make this a bit touch and go, but if L. Neil has Admiral Heinlein, it's not really plagiaristic to have the tube transports from, well, several Heinlein works, heh.  They seem fairly useful, except for the part where you have to bore a non-euclidean straight line through rock. 

One thing I really hope for when it comes to space flight, is that if it ever gets generalized I'd be trying my hardest to end up out there.  My joint issues are related to connective tissue issues.  They don't hold together.  If I didn't have a full gravity to contend with, I'd probably have almost no pain problems.  Except through anything like jerking motions from, say, an icehammer, heh.  Even Luna would be great.  I could actually use my doublejointedness and have almost none of my side-effects, except nearsightedness that might be related to the collagen in the whites of my eyes being affected along with ligament collage.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 26, 2008, 12:45:53 pm
Actually, the gravity is damned low.  Escape velocity on Ceres is 0.51km/s.  This translates out to 1673.23ft/s.  The NRA factsheet (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DomnaAntoniadis.shtml) lists some common muzzle velocities, and three of their guns fire fast enough to achieve escape velocity.  The .223 Remington, the 30-06 Springfield, and the 44 Magnum.  I'm sure there are others, as the list here (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE8.html) lists quite a few, and disagrees with some of the NRA's numbers.  Take them with a grain of salt either way, but they do both agree that given a "flat" surface on Ceres, quite a lot of rounds won't ever hit the dirt.
Quite correct.
This page (http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/planets_dwarf_ceres.html) is a handy fact sheet for other fans, heh.  It seems I'd weigh about ten pounds on Ceres.  With a 9hr day, there might be a significant enough coriolis effect to curve shots.  Probably not enough to throw anybody seriously off in a firefight, but a shooting league probably has to figure coriolis in for target shooting.  Pull right if facing Cererean north, pull left if south.  Shoot high if facing east, low if west.
While true, my WAG is that it would not make a mm worth of difference at social distances or even shoot range distances.
Sandy et al, have you thought about Heinleinian tube transport?  I think in Cat Who Walks Through Walls, he explained that for wider transit, the tube system uses a gauss gun at the start to accelerate to orbital velocity, keeps the capsule in a vacuum during the trip, and then pulls the energy back off at the other end.  Virtually zero energy lost in the transit except the efficiency of the stators at start and finish.
Actually, I have been thinking about taking it one step further. Since, as you pointed out, Cererean escape velocity is about one and a half kilometers per second, it would be possible to have a confined vehicle that would provide negative Gs to the passengers. In other words, it would zoom around Ceres inverted.
The Cererean Spud-shape might make this a bit touch and go...
Ceres is not a spud! It's round like the <ahem> over-sized planets.
... but if L. Neil has Admiral Heinlein, it's not really plagiaristic to have the tube transports from, well, several Heinlein works, heh.  They seem fairly useful, except for the part where you have to bore a non-euclidean straight line through rock.
I don't see any need for that for two reasons. (1) Just run the trains on great circles around Ceres. (2) What rock? There are only a few islands on Ceres. Most of it is covered by a very deep ocean.
One thing I really hope for when it comes to space flight, is that if it ever gets generalized I'd be trying my hardest to end up out there.  My joint issues are related to connective tissue issues.
On Monday and Tuesday, I met with Dr. Michael West. He is "Mr. StemCell." Don't worry about it, a year or two from now, you can kiss that problem goodbye.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on November 26, 2008, 03:18:42 pm
Sorry, I must've been thinking of Vesta.  Ceres is not quite spherical, not even as close as Terra and Luna get.  There's almost a 150km difference between equatorial diameter and polar diameter.  About an 8% difference.

I was thinking of the Heinleinian tube system with regards to rock.  Which used Luna rather than Ceres, and so had a lot of rock to contend with.  Ceres would have tubes through ice or on the surface, depending on how stable the ice is, in the example.  The Heinleinian storyline reason why the tube system hadn't expanded particularly on an independent Luna was that there was a high investment threshold.  It was cheaper for them to use ballistics than tubes, even if it cost more energy and had to be scheduled around solar activity, if I recall.

Something about us stretchy types, our nervous systems become adapted to being stretchy.  There's surgeries to tighten the joints up, but we usually just rip the sutures.  If some stem cell treatment tightened the ligaments up, I'd just be in pain for a long, long time if I ever adapted.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: wdg3rd on November 26, 2008, 05:19:18 pm
Actually, I have been thinking about taking it one step further. Since, as you pointed out, Cererean escape velocity is about one and a half kilometers per second, it would be possible to have a confined vehicle that would provide negative Gs to the passengers. In other words, it would zoom around Ceres inverted.

In fact, the "surface" transport system on Ceres in The Venus Belt did just that if I remember correctly.  My copy is one floor down, I'll check in an hour or two when I go downstairs to brine the turkey.  (First, I'm going to watch this past Monday's episode of "Heroes").
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on November 26, 2008, 07:23:30 pm
Actually, I have been thinking about taking it one step further. Since, as you pointed out, Cererean escape velocity is about one and a half kilometers per second, it would be possible to have a confined vehicle that would provide negative Gs to the passengers. In other words, it would zoom around Ceres inverted.

In fact, the "surface" transport system on Ceres in The Venus Belt did just that if I remember correctly.  My copy is one floor down, I'll check in an hour or two when I go downstairs to brine the turkey.  (First, I'm going to watch this past Monday's episode of "Heroes").
Dang! See what I mean about subconscious borrowing...?
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Scott on November 27, 2008, 01:16:12 am
Quote
Actually, I have been thinking about taking it one step further. Since, as you pointed out, Cererean escape velocity is about one and a half kilometers per second, it would be possible to have a confined vehicle that would provide negative Gs to the passengers. In other words, it would zoom around Ceres inverted.

Actually, L. Neil Smith had inverted super-highways on his version of Ceres in The Venus Belt.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Scott on November 28, 2008, 03:05:28 pm
I've moved the discussion about L. Neil's books that follows this over to "Talk Amongst Yourselves," since it doesn't really involve EFT anymore.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 11, 2008, 01:16:33 am
Yes, Guy.  It's called "entrepreneurialism", heh.  Yanno, lots of people owning lots of small enterprises  ;D  Yanno, those things the revenooers have spent two centuries trying to annihilate?  :'(
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Rocketman on December 11, 2008, 06:17:43 am
Concerning today's panel.  Open mouth and insert foot Guy.  It's pretty clear that he substitutes
mindless rote that he gained growing up for concious thought.  I don't think he's going to last long.    ;D
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on December 11, 2008, 03:38:24 pm
Concerning today's panel.  Open mouth and insert foot Guy.  It's pretty clear that he substitutes
mindless rote that he gained growing up for concious thought.  I don't think he's going to last long.    ;D
Be surprised; be very surprised...
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 12, 2008, 10:31:55 pm
In one year of working in vacuum, in potentially unstable rock and ice surfaces involving vacuum, three fatalities and five serious injuries seems tiny.  When bridges get constructed, or buildings, the fatality and injury rate is usually about that.  Traditionally, mining often has higher casualties.

Was that a look of shock/surprise when belters made casual mention of nanotechnology?
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: wdg3rd on December 13, 2008, 12:46:26 am
In one year of working in vacuum, in potentially unstable rock and ice surfaces involving vacuum, three fatalities and five serious injuries seems tiny.  When bridges get constructed, or buildings, the fatality and injury rate is usually about that.  Traditionally, mining often has higher casualties.

Was that a look of shock/surprise when belters made casual mention of nanotechnology?

Considering the number of workers, that's a tiny amount of casualties proportionately compared to a closely controlled government operation such as NASA or even the Russian (if you include Soviet) records to date.  It's not bad compared to my grade school.  (Admittedly I went to grade school when the playground equipment was made of steel, not soft plastic).
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Corydon on December 13, 2008, 07:18:03 am
In one year of working in vacuum, in potentially unstable rock and ice surfaces involving vacuum, three fatalities and five serious injuries seems tiny.  When bridges get constructed, or buildings, the fatality and injury rate is usually about that.  Traditionally, mining often has higher casualties.

They didn't say how many workers are on the asteroid, did they?  Three fatalities could be a very high percentage...
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Rocketman on December 13, 2008, 12:20:01 pm
Corydon:  I would be willing to bet that it's not as much the percentage of the workers that makes the difference as it is that on Earth any socialist government (which is all that there is there) will go to extreme lengths not to show to their people that they were exposing any of the workers being killed through incompetence or just plain unsafe working conditions.  If the people on Earth learned that the per captia rate of mining accidents was much higher than on Ceres how good would the Earth government look?
   Case in point, after the soviet union collasped in 1989 America learned that the failure rate in the early days of USSR spaceflight was much higher than the soviets had admitted to.  They would look bad to the rest of the world if it was shown that the Americans has more respect for the lives of their people than the USSR did for theirs as well as their technical competence was inferior to the USA.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Frank B. on December 13, 2008, 03:03:06 pm
Corydon:  I would be willing to bet that it's not as much the percentage of the workers that makes the difference as it is that on Earth any socialist government (which is all that there is there) will go to extreme lengths not to show to their people that they were exposing any of the workers being killed through incompetence or just plain unsafe working conditions.  If the people on Earth learned that the per captia rate of mining accidents was much higher than on Ceres how good would the Earth government look?
   Case in point, after the soviet union collasped in 1989 America learned that the failure rate in the early days of USSR spaceflight was much higher than the soviets had admitted to.  They would look bad to the rest of the world if it was shown that the Americans has more respect for the lives of their people than the USSR did for theirs as well as their technical competence was inferior to the USA.

Right.  In socialist-land: doing hazardous work with a low regard for safety is respectable if it's for duty (to the state).  When it's done for money, it's greed and not good.  I don't know that NASA has more or less respect for the lives of their people than the soviets, but they've been much more transparent about it.

Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Rocketman on December 13, 2008, 07:06:36 pm
Right.  In socialist-land: doing hazardous work with a low regard for safety is respectable if it's for duty (to the state).  When it's done for money, it's greed and not good.  I don't know that NASA has more or less respect for the lives of their people than the soviets, but they've been much more transparent about it.
  Frank:  I call to your attention incidences that would have happened less than 20 years or so before the early days of manned spaceflight namely "The Great Patriotic War"  when the USSR was more than willing to throw poorly or even nonexistantly trained soviet troops with little more than a handful of ammo and an ancient (and lousy in my opinion) Mosin-Nagant M91 bolt action rifle against nazi troops armed with MP-40 and first generation assault rifles.   If you were a soviet conscript that saw how bad it was and tried to run back to the rear you would face an NKVD officer who would put a bullet in the back of your head from a nearly as old Nagant revolver.  It wasn't until practically the end of the war when they finally came up with a semi-auto rifle that was halfway decent namely the SKS.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: wdg3rd on December 13, 2008, 08:01:35 pm
  Frank:  I call to your attention incidences that would have happened less than 20 years or so before the early days of manned spaceflight namely "The Great Patriotic War"  when the USSR was more than willing to throw poorly or even nonexistantly trained soviet troops with little more than a handful of ammo and an ancient (and lousy in my opinion) Mosin-Nagant M91 bolt action rifle against nazi troops armed with MP-40 and first generation assault rifles.   If you were a soviet conscript that saw how bad it was and tried to run back to the rear you would face an NKVD officer who would put a bullet in the back of your head from a nearly as old Nagant revolver.  It wasn't until practically the end of the war when they finally came up with a semi-auto rifle that was halfway decent namely the SKS.

It was still better to run.  The NKVD asshole might miss.  The Germans didn't, with their rate-of-fire.  (Until they got too stretched out and Winter was closing in).
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Corydon on December 13, 2008, 08:28:33 pm
Sure, the USSR had a terrible safety record; but in addition to being communist, they were corrupt as hell and a totalitarian state to boot.  I'm sure that the Chinese mining has a terrible safety record, too, for the same reasons.

It seems like it wouldn't be hard to test the hypothesis that "socialism = unsafe conditions"; just compare mine safety in the US with that in, say, Swedish or German mines.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Monkt on December 13, 2008, 10:26:06 pm
Right.  In socialist-land: doing hazardous work with a low regard for safety is respectable if it's for duty (to the state).  When it's done for money, it's greed and not good.  I don't know that NASA has more or less respect for the lives of their people than the soviets, but they've been much more transparent about it.
  Frank:  I call to your attention incidences that would have happened less than 20 years or so before the early days of manned spaceflight namely "The Great Patriotic War"  when the USSR was more than willing to throw poorly or even nonexistantly trained soviet troops with little more than a handful of ammo and an ancient (and lousy in my opinion) Mosin-Nagant M91 bolt action rifle against nazi troops armed with MP-40 and first generation assault rifles.   If you were a soviet conscript that saw how bad it was and tried to run back to the rear you would face an NKVD officer who would put a bullet in the back of your head from a nearly as old Nagant revolver.  It wasn't until practically the end of the war when they finally came up with a semi-auto rifle that was halfway decent namely the SKS.
If I remember correctly the SKS didn't see much front line use in WWII, they did have the SVT-40 for most of the war however.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Frank B. on December 14, 2008, 01:10:39 am
  Frank:  I call to your attention incidences that would have happened less than 20 years or so before the early days of manned spaceflight namely "The Great Patriotic War"  when the USSR was more than willing to throw poorly or even nonexistantly trained soviet troops with little more than a handful of ammo and an ancient (and lousy in my opinion) Mosin-Nagant M91 bolt action rifle against nazi troops armed with MP-40 and first generation assault rifles. 

I was really trying to compare space program safety records.  The US govt has had the advantage of leaching off a much more vibrant economy than the soviets had to work with for its 70 years of existence, and that accounts for a lot in terms of how our govt run programs perform compared to soviet equivalents.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 14, 2008, 01:29:06 am
US mining and other mineral explorations are NOT free market.  They're just slightly less state-owned.  As such, there's no real competition.  But if it gets bad enough, people are at least allowed to turn to safer employment.  Like organic grenade damper  ;D
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Corydon on December 14, 2008, 01:00:31 pm
US mining and other mineral explorations are NOT free market.  They're just slightly less state-owned.  As such, there's no real competition. 

Okay, let's accept that as true.  There's no significant difference in ownership between US and Chinese mining industries, just slight variations on socialism.  That makes it easy to compare the two!  If it's the case that the economic system determines the level of safety, then US and Chinese mines should have comparable safety records.

But as I understand it, US mines are significantly safer than Chinese mines.  That indicates that the ownership of a mine is less important than other factors when it comes to safety.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 14, 2008, 06:12:23 pm
The competition is largely not between mining companies, but between mining and other professions.  In China, changing jobs pretty much requires government sanction.  Thus you pretty well cannot quit being a miner unless some politician gives you an upcheck.  Thus those running the mines have no reason whatsoever to maintain a safe workplace.  You're expendable and replaceable and your choice is mining or starving.  The US at least has the ability to go "you know what?  This is way too dangerous.  I'm going to do something else."  Choice, first and foremost, helps safety.  Imposing safety measures is often arbitrary, and doesn't pay attention to risk/rewards or whether a measure will actually make people less safe in the long run.  People in a choice system make a decision which is better and worse.  They'll abandon measures which are ineffective or detrimental, adopt ones that are beneficial. 

The point of my statement is even this seemingly minor choice, love it or leave it, makes companies adjust to some extent.  But!  With actual free choice of companies involved, things could be even better.  Companies would have to compete even in the same area with each other over how good their working conditions are, rather than just playing the high salary versus risk game with other industries available to the same workers.  The Belters in EfT are already transiting to the different stakes.  If a subset of workers are dissatisfied with any given company, there's plenty other rocks.  And plenty of capital to go around apparently for establishing new companies.  I wouldn't be surprised if the larger rocks had multiple grubstakes on'em. 

If the belt were run like mining interests in the US, some government would take a look at the chaotic maze of different rock stakes, take all the mineral rights and assign them "efficiently", zone the rocks with residences, and people would be owing their lives to the company store quite often.  The choice would be between a few companies, nobody would really be able to start them up, and productivity would actually be *down* because the company wouldn't mine more than it individually can handle the logistics for.  They'd have less incentive to work on safety because they won't lose their force-driven stakes on the belt.  To some extent they would still have to, because some might prefer to provide a service industry in the residential areas.  Or move back out of the belts to terra or mars, since medical technology seems to prevent the deterioration of physiology that seems quite real in microgravity in EfT.

Compare to Chinese state-owned, and the gov would just lay claim to the entire belt, order mining with timetables utterly unrelated to any value for safety, and have no fear because you have to have permission to exit the dangerous mines.  They may actually be penal punishments.  Why would you care about the safety of said workers?  Even should you be some sort of a weird, kind overlord, you would have to vary your measures arbitrarily, try to gauge slowly what statistically alters the injury and fatality rates.  Innovation would be slow.  Painful.  And since they can't really leave, you may end up preferring to spend human lives to enrich your own pocketbooks.  Or gain status in the government heirarchy.  And ironically it's the least efficient of the three methods, since gov is the decider of what is and isn't viable for mining.  And what should and shouldn't be mined first.  And coordinating the supply chains.  One organization, with all the limits on coordination of such a large operation.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on December 14, 2008, 06:22:03 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if the larger rocks had multiple grubstakes on'em. 
Yup, you are correct. This will come up in a future story arc. The backstory is that nearly all Belters abide by an ISO mining claim protocol. It just makes life easier for everyone to accept some common standards.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Rocketman on December 14, 2008, 11:21:51 pm
US mining and other mineral explorations are NOT free market.  They're just slightly less state-owned.  As such, there's no real competition.  But if it gets bad enough, people are at least allowed to turn to safer employment.  Like organic grenade damper  ;D
Going to have to disagree with you on that one Leviathan.  It's true that there are significant regulations from the EPA and BLM among others on large mining operations but if we're talking about small claims where on a couple of people like a husband and wife work a claim, it's actually fairly reasonable. 
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 15, 2008, 01:39:11 pm
Rocketman:
Mining towns were originally block grants to mining companies, on the same pittance platform that gave the rail towns their reputations.  Many states at the least, the state long ago seized the entire set of mineral rights.  Texas is a notable participant in this program with that seeming inconsistency with Texan philosophy, since I saw some of the discussions concerning "Paulville" in Texas.  Also, a number of "scams" came out awhile back, where somewhat unscrupulous land sellers neglected to inform the buyers of certain addendums, like the fact that mineral rights claims were about to be or were currently being utilized on the land they "bought".  The history isn't nearly as rosy, in other words.  A lot of the places that still have mom'n'pop ability have just held the tradition from the days when they were unincorporated territories without that Federal oversight.  The EPA and BLM type of regulatory process is definitely a process of denial-of-resource, making it difficult to compete as a small company, however.

Sandy:
Yeah, people assume that some standards won't arise spontaneously without a state.  And be adapted or abandoned as conditions change.  Or largely ignored if unreasonable, as IPv6 has largely been because of its total lack of concern for seamless transition.
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: SandySandfort on December 15, 2008, 07:54:53 pm
Sandy:
Yeah, people assume that some standards won't arise spontaneously without a state.  And be adapted or abandoned as conditions change.  Or largely ignored if unreasonable, as IPv6 has largely been because of its total lack of concern for seamless transition.
Which of course, is exactly the same way it works with a state...
Title: Re: 11/19 "the bargain bin"
Post by: Leviathan on December 15, 2008, 10:08:01 pm
Yeah, but, but, without a state there nobody would want to work together!  They'll all be busy raping and pillaging and re-enacting scenes from the three mad max movies!  And arguing since government isn't there to set standards!  And who would build the roads?  ::)

Oh, and is Guy just, uhh, a little slow?  Or in denial?  *Reading* that sound sends chills up and down my spine.