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Online Comics => Quantum Vibe => Topic started by: Redwood Elf on January 06, 2020, 09:07:37 am

Title: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Redwood Elf on January 06, 2020, 09:07:37 am
I would think that for those who make regular backups of their personality, there would be entire corporations dedicated to remote storage of emergency backups. "Armageddon, Inc. Peace of mind against Extinction Level Events!"
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Skull the Troll on January 06, 2020, 09:30:26 am
I would think that for those who make regular backups of their personality, there would be entire corporations dedicated to remote storage of emergency backups. "Armageddon, Inc. Peace of mind against Extinction Level Events!"

Right?!? I keep my taaxes in a remote backup location. If I had something that would keep me alive forever, I'd have it in 50 places.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on January 06, 2020, 12:30:59 pm
I previously brought up the point that Diana casually backed herself up, on the equivalent of a USB drive kept unencrypted in her rental apartment.

Which the bad guys stole.

And we know from the raid on DeCastries that brains can be scanned directly, (page=1985) so an image of a person is certainly should be possible.

The RPLD crew has Diana's backup, if her body is destroyed and the backup along with it I have to wonder if RPLD can warp it enough to create a Diana "double agent"

I certainly would have second thoughts about keeping 20 unencrypted copies of myself floating around Oz.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: bjdotson on January 06, 2020, 12:37:30 pm
I am sure that most people would be smart enough not to have their backups in their house, but how remote is remote. Local Bank, Computer complex in your bubble, etc.
Most people wouldn't plan for a mega disaster like this and you might not even trust the companies in a neighboring bubble. You would want to give your backups to people (companies) that you trust and the further you get away from "home", the more that number dwindles.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Sean Roach on January 06, 2020, 03:32:55 pm
It's easy to get complacent. The bubbles are safe, generally. You're far more likely to die due to misadventure than your house getting destroyed, along with everyone else's.

That said, take your scan, assuming it's digital, XOR it against true noise. Give the XORed version to one person and the noise to another. Do this multiple times and give each person one XORed brain scan from one set and one noise sample from another. OTP's are immune to known-text analysis, provided they're used CORRECTLY, and generated CORRECTLY, so you don't need to concern yourself that someone will get several sets and study them for commonalities, (some Russian intel was decoded because the one-time pads were reused, and at least at one time, the Soviets generated OTP's by banging "randomly" on typewriters,.. which isn't random enough to defy analysis). The files may be immense, but who cares? We can store several terabytes in a package that is smaller than a mans wallet.

Finally, do a daily, a weekly, and a monthly backup. The daily stays on your nightstand. The weekly gets uploaded to the nearest hospital. The monthly gets shot off to a secure server owned by your Assurance Agency. That's how you distribute them to friends, too. Any set gets updated, not every day or week, but every so often, and everyone has instructions that, in the event of your death, they should compare notes to see whose is most recent and use that one to re-create you.

Edit: There are ways to encrypt a thing into multiple pieces such that you must bring an arbitrary number of those pieces together to restore the file. So, say you are confident that at least 60% of your friends are both reliable and trustworthy enough to entrust with your backup, but you don't necessarily know which 60%. You pick 8 of them, and set it up so that at least 6 parts, any 6 parts, comprising 75%, must be brought together in order to restore "you".  You can even do this as part of your automatic backup, too. All it means is you need to pick a number of targets, not strongly associated with each other such that if one were compromised they all would be, and a communications system that was impractical to compromise without quick detection.
Heck, you just need to preserve, against evesdropping, 3 of your 8 component pieces, in the above example, so use multiple communications mechanisms, including possibly a physical dead-drop.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: UncleRice on January 06, 2020, 09:22:28 pm
Given the vast amount of empty space in the universe and cheap travel, backing yourself up in a remote automated ship would be SOP, but  not everyone has the  kind of imagination needed to take those kinds of efforts.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 08, 2020, 11:00:19 am
My thinking is that generally most people in Bubbleopolis would have just two backups, an A/B arrangement, and keep them either at home or in a nearby vault.

One thing about personality-memory back-ups is they are extremely complex, even by 31st-Century standards, and you don't want ANY typos or noise. So, you upload your back-up by wire, not by radio or q-wave, which means you have to have a set-up something like what we saw Diana use at Alyss' house.

Bear also in mind that, unlike the Star Trek universe, this is not a "post-scarcity" economy (what a ridiculous notion) and back-up gear and resurrection services cost money and most people don't want to spend much more than we might spend on life insurance policies. Especially when they get complacent, living inside a Borvonite sphere. Some people might have multiple off-site back-ups, and they can be resurrected, but some of those back-ups might be quite out-of-date. This would make for some interesting personal situations. (What do you mean, we got divorced? When?)
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: lurkergao on January 08, 2020, 04:28:28 pm
There's also the problem of people knowing where the deceased backup is stored i would think. Diane for instance might have had an offsite backup somewhere besides castle monty due to her past troubles with people stealing them might have them in an anonymous safe deposit box.

Respectfully Scott it appears like some things are post scarcity in your world setting. Nobody so far has tried to charge Diane for breathing their air for instance. In space that's not a given. Especially considering how humans cant stop breathing to go shopping around. Even the seedy cyberpunk slums in oz have free access to breathable air. It indicates that problem is somehow solved to such an extent that nobody is even thinking how to make a buck off it.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Redwood Elf on January 08, 2020, 04:43:14 pm
My thinking is that generally most people in Bubbleopolis would have just two backups, an A/B arrangement, and keep them either at home or in a nearby vault.
So nobody has thought to set up a "New You, Inc" that would, for example, have a mind scanner in a flyer and would come to your house, do your backup, give you a copy, and take their copy to their central vault, and distribute additional copies to several other sites, at least one of which is off-world (With the Murphy-tech travel, it could literally be anywhere in the universe) and, if there was a major disaster like the space monkeys flinging space poop at your bubble, It would send out periodic alerts (Maybe once per day) with a countdown to all their customers in the area, detailing the disaster and inquiring as to their condition. Anyone who responds would stop getting the updates, and anyone who didn't respond when the countdown runs out (Say, a month) would be re-incarnated into a new body?

It seems like this kind of Permanent Life Insurance could be provided relatively inexpensively, since you're spreading the cost among all your customers, which would probably be the people who couldn't afford a brain scanner of their own.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 09, 2020, 09:02:38 am
There's also the problem of people knowing where the deceased backup is stored i would think. Diane for instance might have had an offsite backup somewhere besides castle monty due to her past troubles with people stealing them might have them in an anonymous safe deposit box.

Respectfully Scott it appears like some things are post scarcity in your world setting. Nobody so far has tried to charge Diane for breathing their air for instance. In space that's not a given. Especially considering how humans cant stop breathing to go shopping around. Even the seedy cyberpunk slums in oz have free access to breathable air. It indicates that problem is somehow solved to such an extent that nobody is even thinking how to make a buck off it.

I haven't brought this up much in the story because there wasn't a good hook for it, but residents of the City do pay for their air, their water, for everything else.
Each sphere has an owner. The "Five Pillars" individually own most of them, but there are a few owned by others, or by partnerships. The sphere owner is responsible for maintaining clean, breathable air. People who own the individual buildings pay rent for space in the sphere, and for electrical power generated by the Borvonite material in the sphere. People who live in the buildings may own them or pay rent to the owners. People can get discounts on their rent by maintaining a certain amount of CO^2 eating, O^2 expelling plants. It really isn't that complicated.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: UncleRice on January 09, 2020, 04:50:33 pm
I can see how half wits could be laboring to pay for their air, water, and such, but given near current day automation tech, anybody thinking strategically will have a fleet of bots tending to their needs via a commodities market system of abundance. Air & water is abundant in deep space. Hydrogen for fusion is abundant in deep space. Heavier elements are a bit buried, but are none the less available. This is known science in current day. Laziness and mental issues would be the only prevention for near post scarcity society. Life based food and decorations would be the "Gold" of their environment, simply because it is fragile and requires special levels of commitment.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 14, 2020, 10:45:38 am
I can see how half wits could be laboring to pay for their air, water, and such, but given near current day automation tech, anybody thinking strategically will have a fleet of bots tending to their needs via a commodities market system of abundance. Air & water is abundant in deep space. Hydrogen for fusion is abundant in deep space. Heavier elements are a bit buried, but are none the less available. This is known science in current day. Laziness and mental issues would be the only prevention for near post scarcity society. Life based food and decorations would be the "Gold" of their environment, simply because it is fragile and requires special levels of commitment.

Just because things are cheap and easy to access doesn't mean they've arrived at "post-scarcity." There will always be some sort of scarcity. There's a difference between "abundant" and "limitless." Think of energy requirements. Think of time. Think of opportunity costs.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: DrakBibliophile on January 14, 2020, 11:28:33 am
Nod.

Compared to earlier periods of history, today would be considered "post-scarcity".

Obviously we don't consider our time as "post-scarcity" and people in Scott's world wouldn't consider theirs as "post-scarcity".

I can see how half wits could be laboring to pay for their air, water, and such, but given near current day automation tech, anybody thinking strategically will have a fleet of bots tending to their needs via a commodities market system of abundance. Air & water is abundant in deep space. Hydrogen for fusion is abundant in deep space. Heavier elements are a bit buried, but are none the less available. This is known science in current day. Laziness and mental issues would be the only prevention for near post scarcity society. Life based food and decorations would be the "Gold" of their environment, simply because it is fragile and requires special levels of commitment.

Just because things are cheap and easy to access doesn't mean they've arrived at "post-scarcity." There will always be some sort of scarcity. There's a difference between "abundant" and "limitless." Think of energy requirements. Think of time. Think of opportunity costs.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Skull the Troll on January 15, 2020, 07:33:35 am
There's also the problem of people knowing where the deceased backup is stored i would think. Diane for instance might have had an offsite backup somewhere besides castle monty due to her past troubles with people stealing them might have them in an anonymous safe deposit box.

Respectfully Scott it appears like some things are post scarcity in your world setting. Nobody so far has tried to charge Diane for breathing their air for instance. In space that's not a given. Especially considering how humans cant stop breathing to go shopping around. Even the seedy cyberpunk slums in oz have free access to breathable air. It indicates that problem is somehow solved to such an extent that nobody is even thinking how to make a buck off it.

I haven't brought this up much in the story because there wasn't a good hook for it, but residents of the City do pay for their air, their water, for everything else.
Each sphere has an owner. The "Five Pillars" individually own most of them, but there are a few owned by others, or by partnerships. The sphere owner is responsible for maintaining clean, breathable air. People who own the individual buildings pay rent for space in the sphere, and for electrical power generated by the Borvonite material in the sphere. People who live in the buildings may own them or pay rent to the owners. People can get discounts on their rent by maintaining a certain amount of CO^2 eating, O^2 expelling plants. It really isn't that complicated.

So what happens if someone doesn't pay their air bill?
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 15, 2020, 08:36:16 am
There's also the problem of people knowing where the deceased backup is stored i would think. Diane for instance might have had an offsite backup somewhere besides castle monty due to her past troubles with people stealing them might have them in an anonymous safe deposit box.

Respectfully Scott it appears like some things are post scarcity in your world setting. Nobody so far has tried to charge Diane for breathing their air for instance. In space that's not a given. Especially considering how humans cant stop breathing to go shopping around. Even the seedy cyberpunk slums in oz have free access to breathable air. It indicates that problem is somehow solved to such an extent that nobody is even thinking how to make a buck off it.

I haven't brought this up much in the story because there wasn't a good hook for it, but residents of the City do pay for their air, their water, for everything else.
Each sphere has an owner. The "Five Pillars" individually own most of them, but there are a few owned by others, or by partnerships. The sphere owner is responsible for maintaining clean, breathable air. People who own the individual buildings pay rent for space in the sphere, and for electrical power generated by the Borvonite material in the sphere. People who live in the buildings may own them or pay rent to the owners. People can get discounts on their rent by maintaining a certain amount of CO^2 eating, O^2 expelling plants. It really isn't that complicated.

So what happens if someone doesn't pay their air bill?

You mean, if they don't pay the rent for their domicile? (The "air bill" is wrapped up in that.) Pretty much the same as here. They get evicted. No, not ejected into vacuum. They might go to Pandemonium, or they might apply to one of the many beneficencias either for a loan to cover the rent or for passage to another world.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: lee n. field on January 15, 2020, 10:20:42 am
I can see how half wits could be laboring to pay for their air, water, and such, but given near current day automation tech, anybody thinking strategically will have a fleet of bots tending to their needs via a commodities market system of abundance. Air & water is abundant in deep space. Hydrogen for fusion is abundant in deep space. Heavier elements are a bit buried, but are none the less available. This is known science in current day. Laziness and mental issues would be the only prevention for near post scarcity society. Life based food and decorations would be the "Gold" of their environment, simply because it is fragile and requires special levels of commitment.

From our perspective, 30th century QV universe society it would be "post scarcity".    Just like we would be to someone just off the fields in 1820's England.  From their perspective, they're still subject to economic limitations.  Something costs.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: lee n. field on January 15, 2020, 10:24:16 am
My thinking is that generally most people in Bubbleopolis would have just two backups, an A/B arrangement, and keep them either at home or in a nearby vault.

One thing about personality-memory back-ups is they are extremely complex, even by 31st-Century standards, and you don't want ANY typos or noise. So, you upload your back-up by wire, not by radio or q-wave, which means you have to have a set-up something like what we saw Diana use at Alyss' house.

Bear also in mind that, unlike the Star Trek universe, this is not a "post-scarcity" economy (what a ridiculous notion) and back-up gear and resurrection services cost money and most people don't want to spend much more than we might spend on life insurance policies. Especially when they get complacent, living inside a Borvonite sphere. Some people might have multiple off-site back-ups, and they can be resurrected, but some of those back-ups might be quite out-of-date. This would make for some interesting personal situations. (What do you mean, we got divorced? When?)

How different, in the QV-verse, is backing up a bio-person from backing up an android?
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on January 15, 2020, 11:33:54 am
Well we know that humans need a 'plant to be backed up, and I think it's safe to assume that arti-folk have this part built in to any of the higher levels of AI.

What we haven't learned yet is if the belt-apes have adopted 'plants after the storyline 500 year (or so) leap forward. 


How different, in the QV-verse, is backing up a bio-person from backing up an android?
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on January 15, 2020, 11:53:15 am
Have you decided how the inner/outer spheres work? Pandemonium is an inner sphere, and nets the lowest amount of solar energy from that, but they probably have to pay less for Bubbleopolis expenses like paying for the shields/defense/station-keeping/other administration stuff. 

I suppose as more and more spheres were added, they could shuffle themselves around and form like an outer skin of a sphere -- getting larger and larger so all the spheres that wanted to pay for the privilege got prime outside position, while the inner spheres would get less light and the ones in the center get twilight.




You mean, if they don't pay the rent for their domicile? (The "air bill" is wrapped up in that.) Pretty much the same as here. They get evicted. No, not ejected into vacuum. They might go to Pandemonium, or they might apply to one of the many beneficencias either for a loan to cover the rent or for passage to another world.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: JanessaVR on January 16, 2020, 05:44:18 pm
I find it interesting that the people of Bubbleopolis accept the backups as themselves - I personally don't, but at this point I'm willing to recognize that identity is subjective, so that's nice for them.

I have a cryonics contract IRL, and my revival instructions state to revive me, not to make a copy of me.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on January 17, 2020, 12:41:17 pm
In the storyline from the beginning, characters have wrestled with this. Apparently in-story people still argue about the existence of a "soul", even while insisting upon equal rights for "arti-folk"; and while backing up an AI was fairly common, it took a while for humans to get on board.

In the vibe-verse, humans are for all practical purposes just "meat-bots", and with the proper implants can be backed up to storage medium, loaded into a "tin" body or loaded into another biological body, perhaps one with some extra arms, blue skin, or a different gender. Cloning spare body parts is routine, and the human body itself can be near endlessly be rejuvenated.   

I find it interesting that the people of Bubbleopolis accept the backups as themselves - I personally don't, but at this point I'm willing to recognize that identity is subjective, so that's nice for them.

I have a cryonics contract IRL, and my revival instructions state to revive me, not to make a copy of me.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: JanessaVR on January 17, 2020, 09:01:33 pm
In the storyline from the beginning, characters have wrestled with this. Apparently in-story people still argue about the existence of a "soul", even while insisting upon equal rights for "arti-folk"; and while backing up an AI was fairly common, it took a while for humans to get on board.

In the vibe-verse, humans are for all practical purposes just "meat-bots", and with the proper implants can be backed up to storage medium, loaded into a "tin" body or loaded into another biological body, perhaps one with some extra arms, blue skin, or a different gender. Cloning spare body parts is routine, and the human body itself can be near endlessly be rejuvenated.   
I'm completely fine with replacing everything but my brain.  And even that can be done, as long it's a neuron-by-neuron "Move" operation to artificial brain (where I'm conscious and mentally functional throughout it), as opposed to a "Copy" operation, as truthfully I'd prefer to just live in virtual reality and permanently abandon physical reality.  Wish me luck in century or two. ;)
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 18, 2020, 03:27:13 pm
I find it interesting that the people of Bubbleopolis accept the backups as themselves - I personally don't, but at this point I'm willing to recognize that identity is subjective, so that's nice for them.

I have a cryonics contract IRL, and my revival instructions state to revive me, not to make a copy of me.

This brings to mind an episode of Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan story in which a woman from the early 21st Century had her head frozen and after a couple of centuries the meat-matter had degenerated to the point there was no "reviving" it, but a meat-copy could be made via advanced computer-scanning and algorithmic trickery. You might be limiting your options a bit too much there, Janessa. OTOH this woman had a very difficult time adjusting to life in the new century (as most revived "corpsicles" did) so that might be for the best.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: JanessaVR on January 20, 2020, 04:38:14 pm
This brings to mind an episode of Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan story in which a woman from the early 21st Century had her head frozen and after a couple of centuries the meat-matter had degenerated to the point there was no "reviving" it, but a meat-copy could be made via advanced computer-scanning and algorithmic trickery. You might be limiting your options a bit too much there, Janessa. OTOH this woman had a very difficult time adjusting to life in the new century (as most revived "corpsicles" did) so that might be for the best.
That's...not how cryonics works.

Modern cryonics uses excellent cryoprotectants, and cryonics patients are well vitrified.  As long as they're kept submerged in liquid nitrogen, there is no "degeneration."  If there was, then any form of brain scanning wouldn't work, either.  Apparently Warren Ellis neglected to do some basic research before writing.

Cryonics is the modern version of Pascal's Wager (http://www.merkle.com/cryo/wager.html), dependent on the development of a more mature nanomedicine.


Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on January 22, 2020, 11:29:21 am
This brings to mind an episode of Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan story in which a woman from the early 21st Century had her head frozen and after a couple of centuries the meat-matter had degenerated to the point there was no "reviving" it, but a meat-copy could be made via advanced computer-scanning and algorithmic trickery. You might be limiting your options a bit too much there, Janessa. OTOH this woman had a very difficult time adjusting to life in the new century (as most revived "corpsicles" did) so that might be for the best.
That's...not how cryonics works.

Modern cryonics uses excellent cryoprotectants, and cryonics patients are well vitrified.  As long as they're kept submerged in liquid nitrogen, there is no "degeneration."  If there was, then any form of brain scanning wouldn't work, either.  Apparently Warren Ellis neglected to do some basic research before writing.

Cryonics is the modern version of Pascal's Wager (http://www.merkle.com/cryo/wager.html), dependent on the development of a more mature nanomedicine.

In fairness to Warren, he wrote Transmetropolitan in the early 1990s. I would imagine cryonics has improved since then.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: lee n. field on January 25, 2020, 11:58:13 am
One thing about personality-memory back-ups is they are extremely complex, even by 31st-Century standards, and you don't want ANY typos or noise. So, you upload your back-up by wire, not by radio or q-wave, which means you have to have a set-up something like what we saw Diana use at Alyss' house.

Give that, how good of a copy of Alyss is the one that took over the master AI of Zytemonde?  (Wonder what's been happening back there...)

Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on January 25, 2020, 04:55:00 pm
One would presume some traces of the Master Processor still exist, since it was an emergency transfer.

It's entirely possible that the new MP could go completely insane.

And of course if just about everything except the remaining AI robots is controlled by the Master Processor, that could cause a  Logan's Run / Paranoia RPG type storyline


Give that, how good of a copy of Alyss is the one that took over the master AI of Zytemonde?  (Wonder what's been happening back there...)
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Skull the Troll on February 08, 2020, 08:23:34 am
Scott decided to shut us up. :) Its now canon that they consider it more of a risk to have a backup elsewhere. I wouldn't.. but 1000 years of cultural evolution... It's no weirder than some of the beliefs we have.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: DrakBibliophile on February 08, 2020, 10:08:19 am
Nah, he didn't come here to tell us to shut up.  ;)

On the other hand, he established that it is canon that most people consider it risker to have backup elsewhere (outside of their control).   :)

Scott decided to shut us up. :) Its now canon that they consider it more of a risk to have a backup elsewhere. I wouldn't.. but 1000 years of cultural evolution... It's no weirder than some of the beliefs we have.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Sean Roach on February 08, 2020, 11:32:09 am
Personally, I'd go with something like what Hugh and Murphy did, but with an automated bootloader. Then I'd bury it somewhere in another galaxy.
Off-site backups would be handled by Murphy equipped displacement drone, and possibly split in two and staggered so I could confirm the first one got away before sending the critical second one to follow.

I'd be in control of this remote site by the simple logic that it would be harder to find it, even looking for it, than to guess the security key to get into my house on the first try.

This is all provided I had the disposable cash to do so without significantly impacting my other activites. That's one ship, with restore hardware, and either a spare body or the means of generating one. That cost would add up even in the QuantumVerse.


Nah, he didn't come here to tell us to shut up.  ;)

On the other hand, he established that it is canon that most people consider it risker to have backup elsewhere (outside of their control).   :)

Scott decided to shut us up. :) Its now canon that they consider it more of a risk to have a backup elsewhere. I wouldn't.. but 1000 years of cultural evolution... It's no weirder than some of the beliefs we have.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Skull the Troll on February 10, 2020, 12:43:22 pm
Right? Seems a lot safer than "In a cupboard behind my couch." That said, lots of cultures have evolved many strange beliefs and conventions over time. Even ones that may be harmful to those who practice them. It's the world they live in. They even have this supposed belief in libertarian ideals, but then when something bad happens they "cry out for leadership."  from the oligarchs that are the real power. ;)
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on February 12, 2020, 07:35:20 pm
Note:  Backups to the backups "fan service" on page=2055

>Alyss: Imagine having unauthorized copies of yourself running around, ruining your credit rating.

And with that I'll make a storyline guess:

Diana is not resurrected from a Monty archive, but from a copy captured from RPLD. This means she loses a couple years of memories, including most of the Otto obsession/stalking. Meanwhile, thankfully, Otto gets laid by someone else. 
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Scott on February 17, 2020, 03:26:38 pm
Note:  Backups to the backups "fan service" on page=2055

>Alyss: Imagine having unauthorized copies of yourself running around, ruining your credit rating.

And with that I'll make a storyline guess:

Diana is not resurrected from a Monty archive, but from a copy captured from RPLD. This means she loses a couple years of memories, including most of the Otto obsession/stalking. Meanwhile, thankfully, Otto gets laid by someone else.

You just gave me an amazing idea for the Otto/Diana sub-plot. Not exactly what you suggest but it will really explode some heads. Thanks!
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on February 20, 2020, 06:24:46 am
Ooh, the very best kind of "fan service"

if you haven't read it yet: Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow



You just gave me an amazing idea for the Otto/Diana sub-plot. Not exactly what you suggest but it will really explode some heads. Thanks!
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: lurkergao on February 24, 2020, 03:39:05 pm
recent strip: Doesn't look like Hugo is very popular these days. 

I found it interesting the person who said earlier in this thread that he wouldn't consider the backups to be him because they are imperfect. I have the opposite opinion to Alyss and him I would want my backups to be walking around and have bodies. And I would probably collect additional me persons like a crazy cat lady in this society. the fact that they will become different from me over time is a benefit not a problem. I'm not sure how much alyss explanation of credit score shenanigans makes sense considering how feasible it is to look like somebody else already in this society. Its not clear how they keep each other's identities straight. Basically the world is incredibly lonely, I don't care about my credit score cash talks better anyway. If I'm going to live as long as the characters in this world I would want somebody to talk to who understood things from the time period I was born. But I'm pretty surprised Scott hasn't introduced more Hiver- like characters in his world setting some of which would likely have been outside of the sphere of destruction at this event and survived.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Sean Roach on February 25, 2020, 10:11:48 am
recent strip: Doesn't look like Hugo is very popular these days. 

I found it interesting the person who said earlier in this thread that he wouldn't consider the backups to be him because they are imperfect. I have the opposite opinion to Alyss and him I would want my backups to be walking around and have bodies. And I would probably collect additional me persons like a crazy cat lady in this society. the fact that they will become different from me over time is a benefit not a problem. I'm not sure how much alyss explanation of credit score shenanigans makes sense considering how feasible it is to look like somebody else already in this society. Its not clear how they keep each other's identities straight. Basically the world is incredibly lonely, I don't care about my credit score cash talks better anyway. If I'm going to live as long as the characters in this world I would want somebody to talk to who understood things from the time period I was born. But I'm pretty surprised Scott hasn't introduced more Hiver- like characters in his world setting some of which would likely have been outside of the sphere of destruction at this event and survived.

Forget good copies. Think mutated or scraped copies. Imagine someone getting your backup and producing a "mask" from your backup. This isn't you. This is an overlay that feeds the wearer your knowledge and mannerisms when asked, but can be overridden, and does not have your motivations. A tool to better impersonate you but not be you. The ultimate form of identity theft.

Although at least some of us would be bothered by the concept of coming home late, after a hard day of not being recruited by the star league, and finding a beta unit living our lives for us.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on February 25, 2020, 05:39:49 pm
I have the opposite opinion to Alyss and him I would want my backups to be walking around and have bodies.

Hmm. you mean like having multiple bodies, maybe a python, a panther, a panda and a porcupine? How often would you sync memories?

Quote
I'm not sure how much alyss explanation of credit score shenanigans makes sense considering how feasible it is to look like somebody else already in this society.

It probably has something to do with having an established credit history attached to an overly complex passcode that you can use to prove a connection to that history. The brain 'plants would make memorizing a random base-64 number of 64 digits in length passcode trivial and error free. 6464 is an enormous number to try to brute-force.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Skull the Troll on February 26, 2020, 09:24:16 am
recent strip: Doesn't look like Hugo is very popular these days. 

I found it interesting the person who said earlier in this thread that he wouldn't consider the backups to be him because they are imperfect. I have the opposite opinion to Alyss and him I would want my backups to be walking around and have bodies. And I would probably collect additional me persons like a crazy cat lady in this society. the fact that they will become different from me over time is a benefit not a problem. I'm not sure how much alyss explanation of credit score shenanigans makes sense considering how feasible it is to look like somebody else already in this society. Its not clear how they keep each other's identities straight. Basically the world is incredibly lonely, I don't care about my credit score cash talks better anyway. If I'm going to live as long as the characters in this world I would want somebody to talk to who understood things from the time period I was born. But I'm pretty surprised Scott hasn't introduced more Hiver- like characters in his world setting some of which would likely have been outside of the sphere of destruction at this event and survived.

Forget good copies. Think mutated or scraped copies. Imagine someone getting your backup and producing a "mask" from your backup. This isn't you. This is an overlay that feeds the wearer your knowledge and mannerisms when asked, but can be overridden, and does not have your motivations. A tool to better impersonate you but not be you. The ultimate form of identity theft.

Although at least some of us would be bothered by the concept of coming home late, after a hard day of not being recruited by the star league, and finding a beta unit living our lives for us.

No part of this story however has made any reference to imperfect copies. You're creating all sort of theoretical tech that hasn't been shown in the story. So far when a backup is activated it is a perfect version of the person who backed it up up until the point of backup. That backup wouldn't be willing to help a "mask wearer" Sure you could torture it into madness like the Cush did with Hugo and Murphy, but the idea of a willing helper seems like a lot more of a outside possibility that a simple house fire as risk goes. That said the people of Bubblopolis feel differently. Its weird but culture is weird, and non-logical much of the time.
Title: Re: Backups to the backups.
Post by: Sean Roach on February 26, 2020, 11:02:41 am
recent strip: Doesn't look like Hugo is very popular these days. 

I found it interesting the person who said earlier in this thread that he wouldn't consider the backups to be him because they are imperfect. I have the opposite opinion to Alyss and him I would want my backups to be walking around and have bodies. And I would probably collect additional me persons like a crazy cat lady in this society. the fact that they will become different from me over time is a benefit not a problem. I'm not sure how much alyss explanation of credit score shenanigans makes sense considering how feasible it is to look like somebody else already in this society. Its not clear how they keep each other's identities straight. Basically the world is incredibly lonely, I don't care about my credit score cash talks better anyway. If I'm going to live as long as the characters in this world I would want somebody to talk to who understood things from the time period I was born. But I'm pretty surprised Scott hasn't introduced more Hiver- like characters in his world setting some of which would likely have been outside of the sphere of destruction at this event and survived.

Forget good copies. Think mutated or scraped copies. Imagine someone getting your backup and producing a "mask" from your backup. This isn't you. This is an overlay that feeds the wearer your knowledge and mannerisms when asked, but can be overridden, and does not have your motivations. A tool to better impersonate you but not be you. The ultimate form of identity theft.

Although at least some of us would be bothered by the concept of coming home late, after a hard day of not being recruited by the star league, and finding a beta unit living our lives for us.

No part of this story however has made any reference to imperfect copies. You're creating all sort of theoretical tech that hasn't been shown in the story. So far when a backup is activated it is a perfect version of the person who backed it up up until the point of backup. That backup wouldn't be willing to help a "mask wearer" Sure you could torture it into madness like the Cush did with Hugo and Murphy, but the idea of a willing helper seems like a lot more of a outside possibility that a simple house fire as risk goes. That said the people of Bubblopolis feel differently. Its weird but culture is weird, and non-logical much of the time.

If you can torture a copy into compliance, at 10x, or 100x, in advance of needing that information, that IS close to what I meant by a "mutated copy". What I actually meant was the concept of replacing the driving personality with a search engine, but that might not be practical even in the vibeverse.

What would be doable, because I believe it's doable now, would be to research your victim like a good biographer of a long-dead person, form questions from that research, then pose those questions to (a copy of) your victim, under the effects of sodium pentathol or similar, to build a more complete model of your victims knowledge and interactions, with probably enough verisimilitude to fool even close friends.
This is close to what I meant by "scraped". As in a "scraped website", where the underlying architecture can't be gleaned but only the exposed HTML generated by it. You're not going to add posts to the end of a message board stored on archive.org.

Now, it's possible that Mr. Beiser will rule that such information is so entangled with personality that you can't get at the one without expressions of the other, but if that is so, then the copy of Nicole that overwrote the MCP of that planet is going to have quite a time keeping things from falling apart around her as she won't be able to "recall" where the MCP put the keys and paperwork she'll need to unravel that dystopia.