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Online Comics => Quantum Vibe => Topic started by: JanessaVR on February 20, 2019, 01:16:15 am

Title: I believe I see the plot
Post by: JanessaVR on February 20, 2019, 01:16:15 am
The bad guys, who are probably that council that wants to take over and organize a "proper" government, need a crisis which only a centralized authority can adequately deal with.  Or at least, that will be their spin, and they're happy to provide that government.  I suspect it will be like the EU (appointed petty tyrants) rather than the US (elected representatives).  And if such a crisis doesn't exist, well then, they'll just have to engineer one, won't they?

Also, love the 3 Seashells!  ;D
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: UncleRice on February 20, 2019, 05:33:21 am
Probably something similar at least. They probably already have a fix, so once a few jump grenades go off and they take over, poof it's fixed. It could also be that they just want a back door to everything, but to what end, if not to do exactly this? The big problem I see here is that evidence points to them already having the backdoor operating. The Bobby appeared and disappeared inside the city and they never suspected a jump device, because the shield should have prevented it? This means that if they believe Alyss has this device, they have no reason to not invade her house immediately. Or worse Dominic is not responding, because they hit him first.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: Skull the Troll on February 20, 2019, 12:29:02 pm
I always figured the shield was nice, but it doesn't really seem necessary. This is a world where I can fab a predator drone and a hellfire missile pretty easily, and I can screw up your bathroom pretty effectively that way too. I dont even really have to go that extreme. With the tech these people have there are a thousand ways to kill someone. A micro drone that injects a poison, a remote zringer mounted on the street on the target's way to work, etc. Like with most societies with plentiful weapons, the ability to kill someone is regulated more through the good behavior of people/society than it is laws or rules or counter tech.  Stealing is probably the problem that would affect society more. I'm trying to think - have we seen somethign get transported where the transmitter wasnt in direct contact with the item/person being transported? I dont think we have, but either way you could port a robot in that attaches a drive , and then both transport out.

Besides Alyss is proven to not be adverse to hacking her way through a shield if she wants to.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: lurkergao on February 20, 2019, 07:41:26 pm
That shield is absolutely necessary. Its true that they probably have other horrifying ways of killing each other. The author somewhat downplays alot of that. For example in a world like this unless there are some compelling reasons he cant your average jack psychopath can 3d print bioweapons immunize himself and let them loose to kill everybody or a person he programmed it to. Monty preparing diana to head into society with a dagger was pretty quaint a powered armor hazmat suit would be more practical. Unless off screen diana has been immunized to all known bioweapons. Or something.. "alyss nanoantivirus enterprise edition". The loss of the shield basically means everybody gets on their ships and leaves taking only people that wont shoot at them but these disruptive technologies probably cause an issue like this regularly for bubbletown. Maybe everybody in this city are people that learned to stop worrying and love the bomb and back regularly. There have probably been large scale attacks like this before where large portions of the population had to revive as androids.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: MTGradwell on February 21, 2019, 08:40:02 am
The shield might be considered necessary by humans who don't want to become bots, but don't forget that a sizeable proportion of the population are bots already, and many of the humans probably have bought into the propaganda and see more upside than downside when it comes to becoming a bot. Alyss herself is a bot. Why is she so concerned about possible violations of toilet privacy? There may be a thousand ways to kill someone, but so what if they aren't going to stay dead? There might be concerns about threats to personal backup facilities, but that can be addressed by keeping the location of those facilities absolutely secret and by having multiple backups. My guess is that the threat will come from a faction of bots and pro-bot humans who want all the humans to become bots.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: DrakBibliophile on February 21, 2019, 11:19:44 am
In spite of the "bomb in the bathroom" image that we were given, I don't see the "hole in the shields" problem in terms of attacks on individuals.

As been mentioned, there are plenty of ways to kill a particular individual in the QV universe so that the "hole in the shields" isn't a major factor.

This threat is one toward organized societies, the members of the societies and the facilities used by the societies.

Sure individuals of the attacked societies may have "back-ups" and could be down-loaded into bot bodies, but a massive attack on bubble-town would kill (perhaps temporary) even bot people and what happens if the "back-ups" were also destroyed.

Even if it was just a "hit and run" terrorist attack, it would cause massive disruptions in the business and lives of bubble-town.

Of course, if the attack was followed by an invasion, then the disruptions would be worse.

We're not talking about "fear of nuclear war as in the Cold War", we're talking about people/businesses living with real attacks that they can't stop.

That's going to cause major problems until a defense is found.

If bubble-town is a major economic (or political) power in the QV universe, such attacks would destroy bubble-town as a power in the QV universe.

Such plenty of people/businesses could save their lives by running away, but any attempt to rebuild their lives elsewhere obviously be disrupted by further attacks unless they keep running.

People always on the run could not stop the "Bad Guys" from taking over the major areas of the QV universe.
   
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: lurkergao on February 22, 2019, 01:34:12 am
Drak brings up a good point this way of defeating the shield isn't known by anybody but this radical faction. I was thinking along the lines of once they know that there is a vulnerability everybody will look until they find it, turning it into a everybody has to hide from each other sorta apocalypse. But this faction is likely to use this tactic suddenly and aggressively and keep using it not giving anybody time to figure it out in a lab. and then clamp down on any institutions that could figure out that trick in the interests of national security. Also interesting strip today this is the first time we have seen actual sex workers referenced in this society.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: Sean Roach on February 22, 2019, 09:48:54 am
Drak brings up a good point this way of defeating the shield isn't known by anybody but this radical faction. I was thinking along the lines of once they know that there is a vulnerability everybody will look until they find it, turning it into a everybody has to hide from each other sorta apocalypse. But this faction is likely to use this tactic suddenly and aggressively and keep using it not giving anybody time to figure it out in a lab. and then clamp down on any institutions that could figure out that trick in the interests of national security. Also interesting strip today this is the first time we have seen actual sex workers referenced in this society.

At least the second. https://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=1750
At the time, some of us speculated that it could be a cover.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: Skull the Troll on February 22, 2019, 02:20:37 pm
Drak brings up a good point this way of defeating the shield isn't known by anybody but this radical faction. I was thinking along the lines of once they know that there is a vulnerability everybody will look until they find it, turning it into a everybody has to hide from each other sorta apocalypse. But this faction is likely to use this tactic suddenly and aggressively and keep using it not giving anybody time to figure it out in a lab. and then clamp down on any institutions that could figure out that trick in the interests of national security. Also interesting strip today this is the first time we have seen actual sex workers referenced in this society.

I don't think were in an apocalypse situation. Its serious, and Alyss takes her responsibilities seriously, but its not the end of society or anything. We all live in a world of danger in real life. We could be killed by a gun, or an axe, or a drone, or weaponized smallpox, etc at any moment of any day. For most people however? They shrug and go to work. The real defense against being killed is not pissing people off to the point where they want you dead, or by making the situation such that if you are killed they will suffer for it. I think a much larger problem in this arc so far is that S&H seems to be compromised. They serve the law or order function in this society and if they arent trustworthy, then a major defense for many people is gone. I'm not certain they aren't trustworthy tho. They were the ones originally trusted with the secret of the Murphy drive and Orseme Shield. They might still be trying to defend that - if abait too forcefully.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: UncleRice on February 22, 2019, 11:15:43 pm
The difference between a jump grenade vs. other weapons, is that their is, generally speaking, a way to trace the weapon used back to the user. You also have to get through an assortment of defenses to use them. Even a weaponized for of small pox or anthrax would take hours to days to kill, so there would be a chance to detect & counter it. A jump grenade can be launched from across the galaxy by anybody who has a beef against anyone. The only thing preventing it would be an internal belief that it was wrong to do so, which is a missing instinct in many people. Thus anyone who was famous or remotely important would have a giant target on their back because somewhere there is so whack job who would have no issue with sending them a jump grenade. It may not create a body count, per se, but the uncertainty and insecurity it would generate is a society killer. Security and justice are not optional in a society. Without functional O-shields, you make murder anonymous and unpreventable.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: DrakBibliophile on February 23, 2019, 07:09:52 am
Again, too many people are thinking "assassinations".

I'm thinking destruction of organized societies.  IE War.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: MirrorField on February 23, 2019, 08:54:52 am
Again, too many people are thinking "assassinations".

I'm thinking destruction of organized societies.  IE War.

You may want to look up a rather similar scenario in Schlock Mercenary (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/): Basically a re-invented (it's a long story) weapon for putting a packet of fusing plasma through a wormhole on similarly unstoppable basis anywhere in the galaxy.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: UncleRice on February 23, 2019, 11:15:01 am
Again, too many people are thinking "assassinations".

I'm thinking destruction of organized societies.  IE War.
Well we currently have the tech for a Davy Crocket Device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54) that would not only kill the target, but wipe out any on site back up. Ultimately, though, to successfully wage war on and, more importantly, conquer a society you have to wage war on the minds and ideology. Consider Afghanistan and Iraq. The US invaded and crushed the local military and unseated the government leaders, but did they conquer? No. Afghanistan is being given back to the Taliban and The Iraqis probably aren't substantially better off than they were with Saddam. Similarly, an outright invasion would unify the locals and at most would cause them to flee to random points in the galaxy to carry on as they were, leaving the invaders a semi ghost town filled with only the least desirable members of the society. To actually conquer the place, you need to make everyone loose faith in their governmental model. You have to make them want you to take over. Fail to win the hearts and minds, and you just create dangerous enemies.
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: Apollo-Soyuz on February 23, 2019, 06:50:32 pm
Yep. The universe is big enough that you could find plenty of places to hide, but terror attacks on Oz would destroy Oz as an economic powerhouse and as a society of influence. 


If bubble-town is a major economic (or political) power in the QV universe, such attacks would destroy bubble-town as a power in the QV universe.

Such plenty of people/businesses could save their lives by running away, but any attempt to rebuild their lives elsewhere obviously be disrupted by further attacks unless they keep running.

People always on the run could not stop the "Bad Guys" from taking over the major areas of the QV universe.
 
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: UncleRice on February 23, 2019, 08:37:38 pm
Scott has managed to create a world where it is ridiculously easy to raise an army, but armies are practically useless in conquest. Consider this 4 part scenario:

Part 1:
A single individual or a CIA/KGB equivalent goes to a boring brown dwarf system rich in resources and builds a mining-factory that builds more mining-factories that build mining-factories that build mining factories. Basic geometric progression applies here. At some point, you have them retool to make military goods. One could argue that a CIA/KGB/Section 31 type organization that didn't have one of these, wasn't doing it's job. It would probably take a few decades but with rejuve, it's just a matter of being patient long enough until you have your massive military run on Planctronic brains only just smart enough to do their job.

Part 2:
So now you have your army, and you decide to invade Bubble Town. The way Alyss is freaking out suggests that they are over relying on the O-shield. That means any brute force siege style attack would probably require a ridiculous number of ships. That means you either need to infiltrate the shield program, or develop a jump system that ignores it, so you can either W54 the shield generators, or, better yet, co-opt them for your own use. This would allow you to jump in infantry to take control of whatever cannon like devices the city uses for defense or destroy them if you must and prevent people from leaving. The tank/battleships come next to draw fire from and destroy internal defenses that probably exist, but probably not nearly frequently enough. Next you bring in the infantry and attack helicopter equivalents to bring your fist down on the populous. An organized military military beats disorganized warriors pretty much every time. Congrats, you just militarily defeated Bubble Town. Now what to do with it...

Part 3, Option A:
You set up a military dictatorship. You might use friendlier words, but this is what it is. The bad news is: You just locked yourself inside the hornets nest you just kicked. Anyone who is not an asymmetric warfare specialist can download the needed skill withing minutes. They likely have a lot of pampered princesses, but the road from pampered princess to suicidal warrior can be a short road paved in pain. A high tech population with an eye to turning whatever they can get a hold of into a weapon is extraordinarily destructive. The people of Bubble Town would make Al Qaeda, ISIS, and every other asymmetric warfare group currently out there look like toddler throwing dirt, and that is assuming they don't have or cant access there own robot troops and no Bubble Town ally doesn't arrive with their own weapons to liberate Bubble Town. Your invasion just became an interesting form of suicide.

Part 3, Option B:
You never wanted to rule them, you just want to be rid of them because they are inconvenient. This is actually easier and a little safer. You don't need infantry, you just need Tsar Bomba dispensers. A few of them and Bubble Town is rubble. The trick here is you need to make sure there are no survivors, including any allies, because if anyone finds out who did it, you will be dealing with probably millions of people capable of exactly what you did. Keep in mind, any town as big as Bubble Town is going to have visitors popping in by the thousands, so you have to deal with them too. You would only be able to do this once, because once it happened, every Bubble Town like town is going to be installing trillions of tripwires, booby traps, an tattle tale systems designed by millions of different people. You do it a second time and everyone is going to know who you are and where you are hiding. You might want to send your whole operation into a sun to destroy the evidence after using it once.

Part 4:
The aftermath. If we assume the operation above was instigated by a statist government, then they are doomed regardless of what words they use. Given the point in time the story takes place in, it's reasonable to believe there could be a trillion Bubble Town aligned people. If even a tiny minority decide that revenge or preemptive action against statist governments was more important than NAP or ZAP or any treaty, then you have millions of people capable of doing Part 1 and performing raids on militaries. Governments would be inudated with individuals launching raids that reduce their troops to kibble for a century at least. It means the statists who launched the attack have not only destroyed their own state, but possibly several others too.

Now if you could instead just get the people of Bubble Town to adopt a few common sense security acts...
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: DrakBibliophile on February 23, 2019, 09:02:28 pm
In other words, Alyss is panicing over nothing. [Very Big Sarcastic Grin]


Scott has managed to create a world where it is ridiculously easy to raise an army, but armies are practically useless in conquest. Consider this 4 part scenario:

Part 1:
A single individual or a CIA/KGB equivalent goes to a boring brown dwarf system rich in resources and builds a mining-factory that builds more mining-factories that build mining-factories that build mining factories. Basic geometric progression applies here. At some point, you have them retool to make military goods. One could argue that a CIA/KGB/Section 31 type organization that didn't have one of these, wasn't doing it's job. It would probably take a few decades but with rejuve, it's just a matter of being patient long enough until you have your massive military run on Planctronic brains only just smart enough to do their job.

Part 2:
So now you have your army, and you decide to invade Bubble Town. The way Alyss is freaking out suggests that they are over relying on the O-shield. That means any brute force siege style attack would probably require a ridiculous number of ships. That means you either need to infiltrate the shield program, or develop a jump system that ignores it, so you can either W54 the shield generators, or, better yet, co-opt them for your own use. This would allow you to jump in infantry to take control of whatever cannon like devices the city uses for defense or destroy them if you must and prevent people from leaving. The tank/battleships come next to draw fire from and destroy internal defenses that probably exist, but probably not nearly frequently enough. Next you bring in the infantry and attack helicopter equivalents to bring your fist down on the populous. An organized military military beats disorganized warriors pretty much every time. Congrats, you just militarily defeated Bubble Town. Now what to do with it...

Part 3, Option A:
You set up a military dictatorship. You might use friendlier words, but this is what it is. The bad news is: You just locked yourself inside the hornets nest you just kicked. Anyone who is not an asymmetric warfare specialist can download the needed skill withing minutes. They likely have a lot of pampered princesses, but the road from pampered princess to suicidal warrior can be a short road paved in pain. A high tech population with an eye to turning whatever they can get a hold of into a weapon is extraordinarily destructive. The people of Bubble Town would make Al Qaeda, ISIS, and every other asymmetric warfare group currently out there look like toddler throwing dirt, and that is assuming they don't have or cant access there own robot troops and no Bubble Town ally doesn't arrive with their own weapons to liberate Bubble Town. Your invasion just became an interesting form of suicide.

Part 3, Option B:
You never wanted to rule them, you just want to be rid of them because they are inconvenient. This is actually easier and a little safer. You don't need infantry, you just need Tsar Bomba dispensers. A few of them and Bubble Town is rubble. The trick here is you need to make sure there are no survivors, including any allies, because if anyone finds out who did it, you will be dealing with probably millions of people capable of exactly what you did. Keep in mind, any town as big as Bubble Town is going to have visitors popping in by the thousands, so you have to deal with them too. You would only be able to do this once, because once it happened, every Bubble Town like town is going to be installing trillions of tripwires, booby traps, an tattle tale systems designed by millions of different people. You do it a second time and everyone is going to know who you are and where you are hiding. You might want to send your whole operation into a sun to destroy the evidence after using it once.

Part 4:
The aftermath. If we assume the operation above was instigated by a statist government, then they are doomed regardless of what words they use. Given the point in time the story takes place in, it's reasonable to believe there could be a trillion Bubble Town aligned people. If even a tiny minority decide that revenge or preemptive action against statist governments was more important than NAP or ZAP or any treaty, then you have millions of people capable of doing Part 1 and performing raids on militaries. Governments would be inudated with individuals launching raids that reduce their troops to kibble for a century at least. It means the statists who launched the attack have not only destroyed their own state, but possibly several others too.

Now if you could instead just get the people of Bubble Town to adopt a few common sense security acts...
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: Sean Roach on February 23, 2019, 09:47:47 pm
Not how I read that.

There's trouble, right here in Bubble City, spelled with a capital 'T', and that stands for Teleporting Bomb.
Put me in charge and I'll protect you from the dire threat of the Murphy Bomb.
It's For The Children. It's For Your Own Safety. It's Only a Temporary Measure. Only Until the Emergency Has Ended...

In other words, Alyss is panicing over nothing. [Very Big Sarcastic Grin]
...
Now if you could instead just get the people of Bubble Town to adopt a few common sense security acts...
Title: Re: I believe I see the plot
Post by: UncleRice on February 25, 2019, 10:53:45 am
Some security measures will inconvenience you and be a bit restrictive, but it all just to create a safer Bubble Town. It all for the sake of public security. We all must make some sacrifices.