Sean Roach on March 11, 2013, 07:10:57 am
Scary Looking Black Guns.

I didn't originate the initialism.  I picked it up elsewhere where others were using it to refer to military pattern rifles as opposed to wooden-furniture "hunting" rifles.

Sorry, the portion of one of my posts in your last most post, about how just because it is willfully stupid to restrict guns over pools, vehicles, and other kinetic devices such as inter-orbital ore haulers, doesn't mean it won't happen.  Rulers can be willfully stupid when they think they can get away with it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 07:23:30 am by Sean Roach »

bjdotson on March 11, 2013, 09:07:55 am
There are a lot of reasons why people should not be denied the use of firearms (indeed, any weapon)  for self-defense, sports, or whatever. These have been eloquently espoused by many people on this forum and I like the arguments, but I think in the final analysis it is really much more simple.

What gives any person or group of persons a right to determine what I can or cannot buy, own, use, or sell.  I don't care if it's a gun, a plant, or unpasteurized milk, these groups should mind their own damn business.

That being said, the reason that gun ownership is such a core issue is that as long as enough of us are armed, the descent into slavery may be slowed and perhaps even averted (although lately I have my doubts to it being averted), but really if a person is willing to pick or choose what item I am allowed; i.e., guns are good, pot is bad or vice versa, there is no real difference in philosophy. They want us to be ruled by THEIR laws, according their moral whims and that means they are pro-slavery.

Sorry, if this seems a bit rambling. I don't have the oratorical skills of a Tucci78.

customdesigned on March 11, 2013, 12:40:02 pm
This doesn't prevent people in our own world from legislating away our 2nd amendment while ignoring the much higher risk of death and dismemberment that both privately operated cars and privately maintained swimming pools have borne out.  Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it wouldn't happen because a few "feeling" individuals refused to "think" about the situation before acting.

Public swimming pools are being closed because of the expense associated with the new requirement that every public pool be equipped with a *permanently mounted* device for handicapped access (basically a crane with a chair that lowers you into the pool).  Previously, many establishments had a rollable device in a maintenance closet that could be wheeled out should a handicapped guest wish to use it.  Apparently, some user exceeded the weight limit of a rollable device, with tragic results.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57441911/pool-access-for-the-disabled-causes-controversy/

Tucci78 on March 11, 2013, 01:28:21 pm
Scary Looking Black Guns.

I didn't originate the initialism.  I picked it up elsewhere where others were using it to refer to military pattern rifles as opposed to wooden-furniture "hunting" rifles.

Hell, I'd never before heard or read that particular initialism.  Bear in mind that for old guys like me, this debate is not simply about longarms derived from Gene Stoner's sixty-year-old AR-10 design but every implement subjected to "the ill-conceived Clinton-Dole Ugly Gun and Adequate Magazine Ban" two decades ago, which was imposed idiotically upon handguns and .22 caliber rifles which had been commonly used by the Boy Scouts of America to teach firearms safety and for merit badge qualification courses as well as the explicitly "civilianized" semiautomatic AR-15 rifles.  

My personal attentions have been engaged by the sodomitic victim disarmament sonzabitches since they rammed the Gun Control Act of 1968 up the national anus nearly half a century ago.  

If you're interested in getting a similar perspective, there are a number of available sources, but for both efficiency and entertainment value I recommend a novel published in 1996 by firearms expert and concealed carry qualification course instructor John Ross, titled Unintended Consequences, which consists in the main of the history leading up to the Clinton-Dole unconstitutionality.  Though out of print, Unintended Consequences is freely available for download in several digital formats via this Web site.  

The work is definitely dated mid-'90s.  Simply quoting his characters' dialogue about the Internet ought to give some insight into that:

Quote from: John Ross, Unintended Consequences, 1996
"Are you on this new thing, the...the Internet?" Ray asked, remembering the name he'd heard. Henry chuckled.

"Yeah, but I hardly use it. All this stuff about the 'Information Superhighway' is a bunch of hype.  'Information Cow Path' would be much more accurate. Anybody can send anything anywhere, which is good, but it results in three problems:

"First, unlike making a thousand identical phone calls or addressing and sending a thousand identical letters, you can send a message, long as you want, to a thousand addresses with just a few keystrokes.  There's mountains of junk to wade through, and the temptation is to blow it all off.

"Second, assholes take particular advantage of the increased ability to send messages. Sending someone a hostile message is now called 'flaming' him. There's been more and more of that, too.

"Last of all, and partially because of what I just mentioned but mainly because it's in their nature, our old friends the feds are real keen to get into the act. The government has actually proposed that a device called a 'Clipper Chip' — and I don't know where that term comes from or why they call it that — be installed in every privately-owned computer in the U.S. It would have an encryption code in it. To prevent theft, or some damn thing, that's the supposed selling point.

"The thing is, the government would have all the master encryption codes. This electronic gizmo would give the feds access to all information stored in every privately-owned computer in the country."

"What?"

"That's right. Sort of like-"

"But that's an absolute violation of the Fifth Amendment!" Ray broke in. "The Fourth and First, too."

"No, it isn't, Ray," Henry said patiently, with a sickeningly sweet smile on his face. "This is for everyone's own good, don't you see? You'll still be able to write things down with pen and paper. You'll still be able to get together and talk about things in private. For now, at least," he added with an evil grin.

"But back when the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution, they could not possibly have foreseen the advent of computers. They never would have imagined a time when just anyone could express his views to a huge audience, just like they never would have imagined guns that fire more than one shot without reloading. If they had, they never would have written the Bill of Rights so broadly. This 'Clipper Chip' is for our own good, don't you see?

"And besides, now we have the Drug War. The Founding Fathers never imagined huge illegal businesses using computers to hide their money. Why, they never even thought anyone would want to hide their money in the first place — they wrote that old Constitution over a hundred years before we realized we had to have a federal income tax.

"The President himself said last month that we have too much freedom in this country, and we need to look more towards the greater good for our society as a whole." Henry smiled without humor as he watched Ray shake his head in wonder and disgust.

Evokes all sorts of memories of 300- and 1200- and 1400-baud external modems, and the plot has the protagonists relying on direct-dial bulletin board systems (BBS) to spread information rapidly.  

We're talking times before the World Wide Web was up and running - and the goons of government were trying for a "kill switch" on such private communications and "alternative media" even then.  

Déja vu all over again, eh?

But with this in mind, I still commend to you Unintended Consequences. Considering what our "Liberal" fascist criminal excuse for a lawful President of these United States is striving to shove up the national ass today, Mr. Ross' work is frighteningly pertinent.  

A government does not disarm its people - never does a government undertake such action, ever - unless the thugs in control thereof intend to perpetrate enslavement and mass-murder.  

Repeated examples in recent history, all over the planet, and do I need to recapitulate the old saw about how "Once is the thing itself, twice is coincidence, but the third time is enemy action" ?
 
Sorry, the portion of one of my posts in your last most post, about how just because it is willfully stupid to restrict guns over pools, vehicles, and other kinetic devices such as inter-orbital ore haulers, doesn't mean it won't happen.  Rulers can be willfully stupid when they think they can get away with it.

Not "stupid."  Evil.  Witness Bubba, our former Irrumator-in-Chief and gun-grabbing asshole par excellence, and his behind-the-scenes role in the massive malfeance passing itself off as a legitimate presidency since the Kenyan Keynesian began squatting criminally on the dunny just off the Oval Office in 2009.  

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, the fatherless bastards.


===
Addendum: I notice we're not talking about the Elf Hivers' notional need for nitrogen anymore....
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 01:46:31 pm by Tucci78 »
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Sean Roach on March 11, 2013, 02:56:18 pm
I allowed that N2 could be mined from comets.  The point was if there was Anything that the small polity of L5 City, and the belt, needed from outside, the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth could threaten to withhold it unless demands were met.
This could be due to lack of infrastructure, lack of available resources, or lack of sufficient gene-stock.

I remember the 90's.  Not perfectly, and I certainly wasn't as jaded as I've become since.  I remember both Baud and BBS.  Free coffee cup coasters, or were they skeet, (never did get around to arranging that shoot,) from AOL.  Computer magazines as thick as phone books, or else with 1/3rd taken up with source code.  I will give your book suggestion a try in a few days.  I doubt I'd be too thrown by the dated references, since in large part they date me too.

wdg3rd on March 11, 2013, 04:27:25 pm
Most gun enthusiasts use some sort of ear protection.

You can always tell the ones who don't.

They go "Hah? Whuzzat?" a whole lot.

I do that a lot anyway, though in my case it seems to be related to several years hanging around big-ass jet engines, as I shoot right-handed and my left ear has about twice the amount of loss as the right.  I was never much for particularly loud concerts in my youth or since.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Tucci78 on March 11, 2013, 04:30:27 pm
I allowed that N2 could be mined from comets.  The point was if there was Anything that the small polity of L5 City, and the belt, needed from outside, the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth could threaten to withhold it unless demands were met.

This could be due to lack of infrastructure, lack of available resources, or lack of sufficient gene-stock.

In the Vibeverse, the Belters and Elf Hivers (as well as the downsiders) might well exploit the cometary planetesimals for all sorts of light elements - as in the terraforming of Huǒxīng - but per canon, the means of getting around in space are such that travel from the inner system to the Kuiper Belt and even further out, to seek resources in the Oort Cloud, would require extremely long-term investments of material resources and sophonts' lifespans.

Might be worth undertaking if the objective is to terraform a planet like Mars or Venus - which is itself a long-term proposition requiring humongous amounts of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc., with a commensurately ginormous long-term expected return on investment - but as to month-by-month (or even year-by-year) needs for chemical feedstocks in comparatively smaller amounts?

Better to go to the Jovian and Saturnian subsystems to grab off such retail amounts.

As for "the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth," you really do need to find yourself copies of the late G. Harry Stine's pertinent works:

  • The Third Industrial Revolution (1975, 1979)
  • The Space Enterprise (1980, 1982)
  • Space Power (1981)
  • The Hopeful Future (1983)
  • Handbook for Space Colonists (1985)
  • Halfway to Anywhere (1996)
  • Living in Space (1997)
  • The Manna Project: Business Opportunities in Outer Space (1998)

Sure, Harry's stuff dates, but every goddamned thing he was talking about forty years ago was not only possible but commercially feasible then, with extant technology and engineering methods.

Just what the hell d'you think the past four decades' advancement - or anticipated improvements in the next couple of centuries - has done (or will do) to make the extraterrestrial economic environment any less superior to what you can expect on "the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth"?

Compared to what's outside the gravity well of your "historically self-sufficient Earth," there's an even greater sufficiency of raw materials, by far the greatest part of it susceptible to manipulation, refinement, and manufacture with even less expenditure of effort than has ever been required downside.

It's far more likely that the downsiders would be subjected to economic extortion by the Elf Hive and Belter mining and fabbing consortia than the other way around. 

I remember the 90's.  Not perfectly, and I certainly wasn't as jaded as I've become since.  I remember both Baud and BBS.  Free coffee cup coasters, or were they skeet, (never did get around to arranging that shoot,) from AOL.  Computer magazines as thick as phone books, or else with 1/3rd taken up with source code.  I will give your book suggestion a try in a few days.  I doubt I'd be too thrown by the dated references, since in large part they date me too.

The past is truly a foreign land, even if we're looking back only twenty years.  Pro parte mia (professionally speaking), we're engaging retrospectroscopy into the early '90s - before the development of the first multidrug highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) regimens - when a diagnosis of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS) was a stark and inevitable death sentence.

For the preceding dozen years and more, the natterings at the meetings of the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA) and each annual Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections (CROI) tend to entertain consideration of precisely when it's most appropriate to initiate first-line HAART medications in order to best preserve HIV-1 suppression over the ensuing decades

Talk about scientifictional gosh-wow in one's own lifetime....


===
Addendum: Anent "...lack of sufficient gene-stock," what is DNA (or RNA, for that matter) but the chemical encoding of information?

If we can do digital decoding of a retrovirus' RNA in order to determine genotypes and thereby reliably infer phenotypic characteristics today, what gives anybody to think that by the time the 26th Century rolls around they won't be walking about with whole DNA libraries on the equivalent of thumb drives?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:41:10 pm by Tucci78 »
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

wdg3rd on March 11, 2013, 04:49:03 pm
  Here's what I found for albums

I'm not too happy with the version on "Lock & Load" (which does have a lot of good stuff), it's done as a group chorale and some of the lyrics aren't clear.  My favorite is the solo version on "Not Canned or Frozen", but so far that album was only released on cassette and is probably out of print though likely available from some convention dealers.  I'll ask Leslie this coming weekend at Lunacon if any of her cassettes are scheduled for rerelease, my copy of "The Undertaker's Horse" is long gone and my copy of "Firestorm!" has suffered some degradation.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Sean Roach on March 11, 2013, 05:01:25 pm
Might be worth undertaking if the objective is to terraform a planet like Mars or Venus - which is itself a long-term proposition requiring humongous amounts of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc., with a commensurately ginormous long-term expected return on investment - but as to month-by-month (or even year-by-year) needs for chemical feedstocks in comparatively smaller amounts?

Better to go to the Jovian and Saturnian subsystems to grab off such retail amounts.

As for "the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth," you really do need to find yourself copies of the late G. Harry Stine's pertinent works:

  • The Third Industrial Revolution (1975, 1979)
  • The Space Enterprise (1980, 1982)
  • Space Power (1981)
  • The Hopeful Future (1983)
  • Handbook for Space Colonists (1985)
  • Halfway to Anywhere (1996)
  • Living in Space (1997)
  • The Manna Project: Business Opportunities in Outer Space (1998)

Sure, Harry's stuff dates, but every goddamned thing he was talking about forty years ago was not only possible but commercially feasible then, with extant technology and engineering methods.

Just what the hell d'you think the past four decades' advancement - or anticipated improvements in the next couple of centuries - has done (or will do) to make the extraterrestrial economic environment any less superior to what you can expect on "the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth"?

Compared to what's outside the gravity well of your "historically self-sufficient Earth," there's an even greater sufficiency of raw materials, by far the greatest part of it susceptible to manipulation, refinement, and manufacture with even less expenditure of effort than has ever been required downside.

It's far more likely that the downsiders would be subjected to economic extortion by the Elf Hive and Belter mining and fabbing consortia than the other way around. 


Perhaps so.  My impression on L-5 would be that it'd have the same economic disadvantages as a small artifical island today, writ large.  Able to be self-sufficient on a day-to-day basis, but potentially lacking in the infrastructure, as distinct from technology, to make all their own goods.
In the 19th century, it was largely possible to produce all common goods from a small pool of talent.  Today, can you imagine having everything from a chip-fab to a car assembly plant in one town?
Granted, with nanoassemblers, if we get there, much of this either goes away or becomes merely expensive, but today at least we specialize more and more with factories producing small pieces of the whole which are then shipped elsewhere to be assembled into the final product.
Some of that is economics, but some of that at least appears to be the result of products being more and more complex, so with complexity, it appears it takes more infrastructure to make the same familiar range of products.

I'll add that author to my list of ones I need to read someday, (the list does grow faster than it shrinks.)

Also, I meant comets passing through, like, perhaps, the one tonight.  I don't know it's composition, just that I intend to try and take a peek.


===
Addendum: Anent "...lack of sufficient gene-stock," what is DNA (or RNA, for that matter) but the chemical encoding of information?

If we can do digital decoding of a retrovirus' RNA in order to determine genotypes and thereby reliably infer phenotypic characteristics today, what gives anybody to think that by the time the 26th Century rolls around they won't be walking about with whole DNA libraries on the equivalent of thumb drives?

Perhaps I wasn't blunt enough.  With a small isolated community, the risk of consanguineous relationships becomes greater, and so far it appears only Vanessa Oresme has managed to get around the limits, and even then by taking shortcuts.  Granted, it may well be possible, even probably, to tweak the genepool so there isn't any risk of  congenital defects in kissing cousins.

myrkul999 on March 11, 2013, 09:21:46 pm
  I'll ask Leslie this coming weekend at Lunacon if any of her cassettes are scheduled for rerelease, my copy of "The Undertaker's Horse" is long gone and my copy of "Firestorm!" has suffered some degradation.

Not to sound like a total fanboy, but that you can say that is just awesome. I would love a copy of Firestorm... all I have are some questionable quality mp3s. They're not even all the same questionable quality.

dough560 on March 12, 2013, 09:02:33 am
The following is a list of materials and web sites I recommend to my shooting students or anyone else not familiar with the gun culture.

Unintended Consequences by John Ross.
Armed and Female by Paxton Quigley. 
Thank God I Had A Gun by Chris Bird.
In Gravest Extreme, The Truth About Self Protection, and The Ayoob Files by Massad Ayoob.
More Guns, Less Crime and The Bias Against Guns by John Lott.

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, www.JPFO.Org
www.waronguns.blogspot.com
www.projectveritas.com
www.firearmsandliberty.com  The Embarrassing Second Amendment.
www.thefirearmscolation.org

These magazines are known for their articles on equipment, law and politics:

American Handgunner
Guns
Combat Handguns                                             
Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement.
S.W.A.T.
Soldier of Fortune

Tucci78 on March 12, 2013, 11:18:45 pm
The following is a list of materials and web sites I recommend to my shooting students or anyone else not familiar with the gun culture.

  • Unintended Consequences by John Ross.
  • Armed and Female by Paxton Quigley. 
  • Thank God I Had A Gun by Chris Bird.
  • In Gravest Extreme, The Truth About Self Protection, and The Ayoob Files by Massad Ayoob.
  • More Guns, Less Crime and The Bias Against Guns by John Lott.


For the sake of more background, to your list of books I would recommend adding:

  • Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns and Self Control, Not Gun Control, both by J. Neil Schulman

 The former contains his famous article "The Unabridged Second Amendment."
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

wdg3rd on March 13, 2013, 06:20:49 am
The following is a list of materials and web sites I recommend to my shooting students or anyone else not familiar with the gun culture.

  • Unintended Consequences by John Ross.
  • Armed and Female by Paxton Quigley. 
  • Thank God I Had A Gun by Chris Bird.
  • In Gravest Extreme, The Truth About Self Protection, and The Ayoob Files by Massad Ayoob.
  • More Guns, Less Crime and The Bias Against Guns by John Lott.


For the sake of more background, to your list of books I would recommend adding:

  • Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns and Self Control, Not Gun Control, both by J. Neil Schulman

 The former contains his famous article "The Unabridged Second Amendment."

I thought I was the only person in this misbegotten state (actually it seems to have been begotten just fine, but it's been downhill ever since) that owned Schulman's books.  (Either those or his fiction).
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

RobbinR on March 13, 2013, 07:05:42 am


A link from the article, good stuff.

Second Amendment Foundation

/

Tucci78 on March 13, 2013, 10:08:24 am
Addendum: Anent "...lack of sufficient gene-stock," what is DNA (or RNA, for that matter) but the chemical encoding of information?

If we can do digital decoding of a retrovirus' RNA in order to determine genotypes and thereby reliably infer phenotypic characteristics today, what gives anybody to think that by the time the 26th Century rolls around they won't be walking about with whole DNA libraries on the equivalent of thumb drives?

Perhaps I wasn't blunt enough.  With a small isolated community, the risk of consanguineous relationships becomes greater, and so far it appears only Vanessa Oresme has managed to get around the limits, and even then by taking shortcuts.  Granted, it may well be possible, even probably, to tweak the genepool so there isn't any risk of  congenital defects in kissing cousins.

Perhaps you weren't observant enough.  Our principal viewpoint character in Quantum Vibe is Nicole Oresme, who was "born 10.12.543 via osmotic cloning to Dr. Vanessa Oresme, the famous bio-chemist."  She had been told by her mother that the process had "used various bits of genetic material from 2400 anonymous donors," but in fact Vanessa had accepted Dr. O'Murchadha's suggestion to use "entire chromosome sequences from selected donors, rather than trying to build [Nicole's] genome one exon at a time," making Nicole the product of her mother's genetic complement and "eleven fathers, genetically speaking" (with Seamus O'Murchadha having been one of them).

Now, per canon, while Nicole is "the first – and so far only – clone to be made by osmotic construction," for the technology to have gotten this far in this ficton, more "conventional" and limited techniques of genetic manipulation had to have been in use for many generations, leading to the 26th Century's cosmopolitan population of "Beltapes, furries, porpoises, anthrofish," spyderz and humans. 

And Huxley himself only knows what else.  After all, Bieser & Bieser have barely yet gotten us out into the Asteroid Belt.

Now, despite your "impression [of L5 being] that it'd have the same economic disadvantages as a small artifical island today, writ large," all of the purposeful genetic technology resulting in spyderz, Beltapes, anthrofish, furries, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all - and emphatically including Nicole Oresme, the osmotic clone job - seems to have been embraced by L5-City and flourishes to produce great diversity in the face of your surmise that it's "a small isolated community" where you've assumed that "the risk of consanguineous relationships becomes greater" than it might otherwise be on "the larger and historically self-sufficient Earth" due to the Elf Hivers' "lack of sufficient gene-stock." 

Had you missed what I'd written earlier about DNA and RNA being nothing other than "the chemical encoding of information" despite the fact that you'd quoted it?  Or that it doesn't take much extrapolatory boldness to conjecture that by the time the 26th Century is in media res, they'll "be walking about with whole DNA libraries on the equivalent of thumb drives?"

To conclude that the Elf Hivers of 566 A.E. are dependent upon random gamete mingling - making use of copulative sperm-and-ovum meiosis in vivo rather than selection and combination in vitro - to produce their offspring is to reason in contravention of what's been revealed in Vibeverse canon.

Your concern that L5-City might be subject to downsider mercorp extortion cutting off their access to Earth's "gene-stocks" is unfounded. 

My impression on L-5 would be that it'd have the same economic disadvantages as a small artifical island today, writ large.  Able to be self-sufficient on a day-to-day basis, but potentially lacking in the infrastructure, as distinct from technology, to make all their own goods.

In the 19th century, it was largely possible to produce all common goods from a small pool of talent.  Today, can you imagine having everything from a chip-fab to a car assembly plant in one town?

Sure.  Postulate a town like Singapore, f'rinstance, and throw in an army, a navy, and an air force which are "arguably the most technologically advanced in Southeast Asia" besides.
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)