RobbinR on February 06, 2013, 11:10:57 am

Edit: I have expanded the topic title to include discussion of guns and weapons in general.

Obviously a place to discuss the matter, and give your opinions.

I start with a couple of articles off the net...



All You Need To Know About "Assault" Rifles


An opinion on gun control

On the second link, I give you fair warning, it's a somewhat lengthy authoritative discourse,
but do not be turned away from the apparent length of the scroll bar,
only about ten percent is the authors qualifications and opinions, the rest is comments from readers.

/
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:49:09 pm by RobbinR »

RobbinR on February 06, 2013, 01:54:23 pm

If you have not seen them all, here are Obama's...

Proposed Congressional Actions

Requiring criminal background checks for all gun sales, including those by private sellers that currently are exempt.

Reinstating and strengthening the ban on assault weapons that was in place from 1994 to 2004.

Limiting ammunition magazines to 10 rounds.

Banning the possession of armor-piercing bullets by anyone other than members of the military and law enforcement.

Increasing criminal penalties for "straw purchasers," people who pass the required background check to buy a gun on behalf of someone else.

Acting on a $4 billion administration proposal to help keep 15,000 police officers on the street.

Confirming President Obama's nominee for director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Eliminating a restriction that requires the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to allow the importation of weapons that are more than 50 years old.

Financing programs to train more police officers, first responders and school officials on how to respond to active armed attacks.

Provide additional $20 million to help expand the a system that tracks violent deaths across the nation from 18 states to 50 states.

Providing $30 million in grants to states to help schools develop emergency response plans.

Providing financing to expand mental health programs for young people.

Executive actions

Issuing a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.

Addressing unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.

Improving incentives for states to share information with the background check system.

Directing the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.

Proposing a rule making to give law enforcement authorities the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.

Publishing a letter from the A.T.F. to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.

Starting a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.

Reviewing safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).

Issuing a presidential memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

Releasing a report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and making it widely available to law enforcement authorities.

Nominating an A.T.F. director.

Providing law enforcement authorities, first responders and school officials with proper training for armed attacks situations.

Maximizing enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.

Issuing a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to research gun violence.

Directing the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenging the private sector to develop innovative technologies.

Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.

Releasing a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.

Providing incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.

Developing model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.

Releasing a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.

Finalizing regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within insurance exchanges.

Committing to finalizing mental health parity regulations.

Starting a national dialogue on mental health led by Kathleen Sebelius, the secretary of health and human services, and Arne Duncan, the secretary of education.

/

UncleRice on February 08, 2013, 12:29:06 am
I think there are something like 47 states that have either passed or are considering laws that will make it a felony with mandatory jail time to enforce any new Federal gun ban. What exactly will be qualified as a Federal gun ban measure and what the effects will be are yet to be determined. Given that guns are regulated under the Interstate Commerce laws, the Feds may have little legal ground to work with as long as a gun doesn't cross state lines.

If that's the way it goes, we may see more states like Montana where machine guns are 100% legal as long as they have "For use in Montana" stamped on them and they don't cross state lines. We may see a lot more local gun factories and bullet factories so that guns don't have to cross state lines.

There are a lot of County Sheriffs that are going on record as refusing to aid and abet any gun grab.

Short Version: We live in interesting times.
Stupid criminals put on a mask and rob people with a gun.
Smart criminals put on a suit, call themselves politicians, and rob people with writ of law.

dough560 on February 11, 2013, 09:13:03 am
I remember a few years ago,  congress passed out money so the states could  update their NCIS records and include adjudicated mental health cases.   From what we're hearing, it still isn't done.

During the Clinton years, we had the problem of the Feds keeping background check information, in an effort to establish a national registry.  Even though federal law prohibited such action, It took at least one court case and the treat of another to stop the practice.  Currently, the instant check record is retained 72 hours.   A sequence number is assigned to the transaction and entered on the 4473.  After 72 hours, only the sequence number is maintained in the federal records.  All other information is destroyed.

Your guess is as good as mine, if the records are actually destroyed or the government has built a central data base.

Frank Bieser on February 14, 2013, 05:33:43 pm
Your guess is as good as mine, if the records are actually destroyed or the government has built a central data base.

Hope for the former, and assume the latter.

dough560 on February 15, 2013, 07:10:34 am
Given BATFE's record of abuse and outright criminal activity......   No, I'm not interested in buying that bridge.

dough560 on February 24, 2013, 09:12:39 am
ATF Abuse:  http://www.atfabuse.com.  Ran across this site the other day.  Anyone know of similar incidents in you areas?

Sean Roach on March 09, 2013, 12:49:54 pm
Tucci,
I disagree with that zero probability assertion.
Two things have to be true for that to be absolutely true.
The people who wrote it had to have read "Starship Troopers" and taken it to heart, ("men are not potatoes, sir").
The people who wrote it had to have chosen a hard line against forces that might well see them as worth more dead than as a frequently profitable, but persistently annoying thorn in their collective rears.
Keep in mind that in the last couple decades a Swiss Bank Account has ceased to be what it once was, due to pressure by the US, who had no jurisdiction in the matter, and just recently the, until then, oldest swiss bank closed over what amounted to a law that they weren't bound to honor.
If Switzerland might do such here, surrounded by powers that want them to be less free-wheeling, why might not the flying pigs similarly take the better part of valor on the issue of legal ownership?

Drak,
One of the points Tucci's been making is that in a world where you can pull a 9/11 with pretty much anything spaceworthy, either by flying it into a station, or by dropping it into a city, restrictions on LESSER weapons, (such as pretty much anything man-portable, or that can be mounted in a humanaform chassis) are essentially meaningless.

Tucci,
This doesn't prevent people in our own world from legislating away our 2nd amendment while ignoring the much higher risk of death and dismemberment that both privately operated cars and privately maintained swimming pools have borne out.  Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it wouldn't happen because a few "feeling" individuals refused to "think" about the situation before acting.

Drak,
The problems with gun control, and grey area, are how that grey area shifts over time.  While I may see no need to carry around a thermonuclear device in a sidecar, on a dead mans switch for personal defense, (from "Snow Crash" by Neil Stephenson,) I believe putting down an arbitrary limit is dangerous in itself.  Once it would have drawn little notice, except perhaps a bit of gun envy, for a man to show up in town with a "silencer", (which doesn't), on his rifle, or one of those new Thompson Machine Guns.  Then the things were legislated to the point where they were uncommon, and now believed illegal by many, including many who are employed to enforce the law. (shouldn't you know the thing you're supposed to uphold?).  The enforcement of non-laws, further chills the use or carry of legal items until they too, and the people who refuse to give them up, are seen as deviant, and actual attempts to make law that was previously casually assumed can be popular.  Shifting the goalposts more in favor of prohibition.
Now, they're targeting SLBG's and magazines with a capacity over some arbitrary limit.  What next?  Only single shot break over?  Be required to "check out" your rifle from the armory no earlier than 24 hours before the date on your deer tag?  No more than 5 rounds of ammunition in your possession at one time?  Legislation restricting arms to some artificial limit generally means that what is allowed gets narrower and narrower over time until finally there is nothing left.  A line must be drawn in the sand before all such arms and bearing of arms are legislated practically out of existence.  Preferably that line should win back some or all of what we've already lost, (unregistered silencers, select fire rifles, and short barreled rifles and shotguns), but that is a very long shot, hence the need to yield no more.

Robbin,
Okay, I've posted this to Your thread way over here.  Let's see if there is any further discussion or if this becomes a dead thread.  I notice the last time anyone was over here was almost 2 weeks ago.  I reserve the right to post this where I intended if the conversation in fact neither dies nor migrates.

RobbinR on March 09, 2013, 03:42:55 pm

Thanks Sean, let's see what happens.

My concern is that I've seen one or two other threads that went way off topic for too long,
get locked up. There is still a long way to go to Th' Ouder System, and I would hate to see
a good thread with good on topic posts, suffer that same fate.

Robbin

customdesigned on March 09, 2013, 04:42:58 pm

Once it would have drawn little notice, except perhaps a bit of gun envy, for a
man to show up in town with a "silencer", (which doesn't), on his rifle, or one
of those new Thompson Machine Guns.  Then the things were legislated to the
point where they were uncommon, and now believed illegal by many, including


I have sensitive hearing, and "silencer" would make a gun much more attractive for personal defence.  Are they, or aren't they "illegal"?  Or are they legal in the sense that taking a gun that has never entered or left the state into a school is technically legal, but you know what would happen if you tried it.

Sean Roach on March 09, 2013, 05:11:26 pm
The way I heard it, It costs a 200 dollar taxstamp.  You have to pay the ATF for your right, and they can investigate, at will, to make sure you're in compliance.
They do a background check before signing off.

I've further heard you have to get a new permit, also from the ATF, if you move it to another state.

RobbinR on March 09, 2013, 05:40:07 pm

Here is a site that has many answers to many questions about silencers (suppressors) aka FAQ.

Most gun enthusiasts use some sort of ear protection.

/

Tucci78 on March 09, 2013, 06:37:59 pm
I have sensitive hearing, and "silencer" would make a gun much more attractive for personal defence.  Are they, or aren't they "illegal"?  Or are they legal in the sense that taking a gun that has never entered or left the state into a school is technically legal, but you know what would happen if you tried it.

Suppressors (never call one a "silencer") are principally of value in abating the noise associated with practice firing, although each such "can" tends to add to muzzle weight and alters the ballistic profile of shots fired.  It's hard to defend the contention that one would keep a suppressor on a handgun normally carried (openly or concealed) for personal defense, or that its use in self-defense confers any material advantage whatsoever.

However, suppressor technology permits firearms users to undertake such practice in areas less remote, where there are justifiable concerns about "noise pollution" in the neighborhood.

All other things being equal, if you're engaging a malefactor with a deadly weapon that goes "bangety-bang," you really, really want to attract the attention of all and sundry, so that EMS - at the very least - can be activated and the cops can be summoned (too late to do any damned good, of course) to take inaccurate statements and screw up the forensics picture in the aftermath.

In the same spirit, of course, that the conscientious golfer always rakes the sand traps and replaces his divots.
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Tucci78 on March 09, 2013, 06:39:42 pm
Most gun enthusiasts use some sort of ear protection.

You can always tell the ones who don't.

They go "Hah? Whuzzat?" a whole lot.
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)

Tucci78 on March 09, 2013, 07:43:39 pm
The matter of android/artifolk equippage had come up, with attention paid to weapons technology feasible in light of what's been exposed in the Vibeverse canon, and this "conservative just not a libertarian" spoke of arms limitations arrangements among the mercorps to prevent certain capacities being allowed in the construction of these autonomous sapient artificial intelligences.

This, of course, would have to be undertaken against the will of those artifolk who are recognized - as per information revealed in the Quantum Vibe canon thus far - as persons in the L-5 culture where "anyone who can understand what rights are and can both respect and demand them, has them."

Thus the still-persistently-unspecified "limits" desired by this self-proclaimed "conservative just not a libertarian" would by definition have to be forcibly imposed upon artifolk in Elf Hive society by Muc Ar Foulain or some other controlling authority in contravention of the principles under which canon gives the reader to understand prevail in L-5 City and the outposts in which this culture operates.

All of this is relevant to the current story line, in which we have a HuoJinGong V-287 unit recently emancipated and relieved of the "malware" installed in her operating system to substantially disable her capacity for individual autonomy.  Moreover, she has not only been so disinhibited by Nicole's intervention but also given "the knowledge and training of Aikido-Lemba and Arata-Kenpo. Next time you get into a scrape you can fend for yourself."

And she's presently in a helluva "scrape," isn't she?

Now, insofar as victim disarmament goes, prior to Nicole's mind-meld, Ventura had been subjected by her HuoJinGong default programming to the ultimate in "gun control," to the extent that even if a zing-gun had been placed in her hand, she couldn't use it.  Self-aware and intelligent and clearly an admirable personality in spite of this deliberate debilitation, HuoJinGong corporate policy had made of her (and by extension, every other android on Huǒxīng) an utter and abject slave.

Then let's consider Muc Ar Foulain - a "mercorp" in name but having a "charter [which] establishes a voluntaryist legal system" - and the zero likelihood that it would deal with the more authoritarian mercorps to negotiate away the rights of artifolk to arm themselves as they damned well please.

I disagree with that zero probability assertion.

Two things have to be true for that to be absolutely true.

The people who wrote it had to have read Starship Troopers and taken it to heart, ("men are not potatoes, sir").

The people who wrote it had to have chosen a hard line against forces that might well see them as worth more dead than as a frequently profitable, but persistently annoying thorn in their collective rears.

Keep in mind that in the last couple decades a Swiss Bank Account has ceased to be what it once was, due to pressure by the US, who had no jurisdiction in the matter, and just recently the, until then, oldest swiss bank closed over what amounted to a law that they weren't bound to honor.

If Switzerland might do such here, surrounded by powers that want them to be less free-wheeling, why might not the flying pigs similarly take the better part of valor on the issue of legal ownership?

Taking first the present 21st Century pickle in which the Swiss bankers are being brine'd (and not to cheat by observing that whatever the 26th Century conditions are gonna be, they'll sure as hell be different), what you have confronting these present-day financial institutions - "jurisdiction" be damned - is an environment in which effectively every monetary unit of denomination in transactions is central-bank fiat currency, each type of which is being more and more aggressively debauched by the issuing agencies, whether those are governmental or nominally "private" (as is the case regarding the Federal Reserve System).

This factor more than any other puts the Swiss bankers into a position of overwhelming disadvantage when it comes to dealing with the extortionate demands of authoritarian foreign politicians controlling these counterfeiting major nations, but - as the saying goes - "Wait! There's more!"

In order to conduct their operations, the Swiss bankers have to be able to shift funds across international borders, and the physical mechanisms for such transfers are located in the jurisdictions of the most powerful of these currency-counterfeiting governments, emphasis on the criminal conspiracy cooking away in Mordor-on-the-Potomac.

Especially with the excuses provided by the never-ever-to-be-ended "Global War on Terror," confiscatorily-inclined governments which function according to Thomas Paine's characterizaton as "an armed banditti" are thereby able to deny these Swiss banks the ability to conduct any international business.  Hell, if the American thugs choose to inflict "the nuclear option," the Helvetic bankers can't even get checks cleared. 

So your consideration of the Swiss banks works only if you presume that the present state of affairs (or something similar) obtains in the Vibeverse, which it most goddam certainly does not - or haven't you noticed that monetary transactions in this ficton are being conducted all over the solar system chiefly in mass units of Keynes' "barbarous relic"? 

The only fiat currency we've seen thus far in the Vibeverse have been the Lunar government's "Miltons," and they're so obviously a thieving shuck that prior to her arrival in that hell-hole, a well-educated young Elf Hiver like Nicole had never even heard of this preposterous bogosity (meaning that "Miltons" don't get into the big, wide, wonderful plenum of interplanetary exchange to any extent whatsoever).

If the Swiss bankers weren't forced by fiat currency and "legal tender" laws to deal by way of what is ever more effectively becoming a single international clearing system, consider please how far up the authoritarians' cloacae they'd be able to tell the inquisitors to ram their heads. 

As they'd done in the past, mark you.

Okay, now let's understand that the L-5 City culture sits atop the gravity wells down at the bottom of which every authoritarian mercorp operates and maintains the greatest part of its assets.  GenSaxWal and Wokka-DNG-Hoy on Terra, HuoJinGong on Huǒxīng, and OmegaTek on Luna - all of them vulnerable to the Dinosaur Killer treatment, the moment that the Belters of Joe's Diners and/or the Elf Hivers decide that these sonzabitches would be better off dead.

Not to mention the fact that the economies of all the downsider polities are life-and-death dependent on energy and materials and even finished goods made abundant by the industrial revolution entrained by microTorr and microgravity extraction, refining, and manufacturing methods.

And who's got the greatest command of that "high ground"?  In fact, which culture in the Vibeverse is acknowledged to be "the bleeding edge of human civilization"?

Canon has given multiple indications that Muc Ar Foulain has been at war with the downside mercorps in the past, and has pretty reliably beaten the hell out of them, gaining concessions such as the co-dominium establishing Voltaire Station on one of the martian moons.

You think the arrogant cods controlling HuoJinGong just handed that to the Elf Hivers?

I dunno about Joe's Diners, but Muc Ar Foulain has pretty much got the whip hand over the other mercorps, if not in population then certainly in both economic and military power.

So you can betcher ass that - given what we know of canon here - Muc Ar Foulain would most certainly "have chosen a hard line" against the dirtside mercorps, and given not a millimeter when it comes to their defense of the unalienable individual rights of any "ethnic group" in their mix of Terrans, "Beltapes, furries, porpoises, anthrofish" and artifolk

Remember, with regard to Muc Ar Foulain, "...the rule is anyone who can understand what rights are and can both respect and demand them, has them."

With effectively nothing to gain and everything to lose in that webwork of L-5 City culture, how the hell could it be conceived that Muc Ar Foulain would concede anything to the downsiders in the way of victim disarmament singling out any of their constituencies?
"I is a great believer in peaceful settlements," Jik-jik assured him. "Ain't nobody as peaceful as a dead trouble-maker."
-- Keith Laumer, Retief's War (1966)