Frank B. on October 16, 2006, 08:11:25 pm
...and of course in Texas the attitude would be "Austria, Bavaria, Westphalia, what's the difference?"

Pretty much as it is with our Texas. ;-)

Redem on October 17, 2006, 11:37:51 am
Well the thing is that Bavaria no longer existed by the time hitler was born, that austria and germany are two separated state.

Zen Redneck on October 17, 2006, 12:18:22 pm
It didn't exist as a sovereign country, but it still existed, as it does today, as a region with a name. I'm sure that Germans who live in Bavaria call themselves Bavarians. The Confederacy doesn't exist, but people still call themselves Southerners.

Scott's point is good, but we don't have to go that far. Hitler's life could have been exactly OTL till he immigrated. He served in the German Army and lived in Bavaria. Just as accurrate to call him a Bavarian as it is to call Schwartzenegger a Californian.

wdg3rd on October 17, 2006, 02:49:21 pm
I'm sure that Germans who live in Bavaria call themselves Bavarians.
Actually, the Germans who live in Bavaria call the region Bayern.  I'm not sure what they call themselves.
Ward Griffiths        wdg3rd@aol.com

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  --  Denis Diderot

Zen Redneck on October 17, 2006, 03:56:51 pm
A male Bavarian is an aspirin Bayer. Female Bayerin.

Mixed-blood on November 11, 2006, 12:46:48 pm
ok as much as I found roswell,texas campy fun I kinda spot several point (in that part in specific) that bug me

*Hitler wasn't a bavarian he was born in austria.

*Hitler didn't paint people he did landscape

*Hum why did they elect her daughter? I mean sure she's a talented and all, but that doesn't mean people would be willing to get her president. I mean did the U.S elect Gutzon Borglum president? and she was elected before 1947, did any woman had any chance of getting elected president by the time in our timeline(we just started to have woman eligibable for the post)?

a question, are latino have the same right as white? wouldn't Texas have some kind of grudge agaisnt mexico and people of Mexican ancestry (and hence someone of both mexican and foreign ancestry get her chance to become president totally busted, considering conversative force)

Others have answered the Bayer and landscape pictures - I am responding to the scurrilous allegations about Texas in general, in OTL.

Texas did NOT have a grudge against "people of Mexican ancestry" - in fact, many people of "Mexican ancestry" - including people with Spanish surnames and Christian names who spoke Spanish at home growing up and who had relatives who live/lived across the Rio Grande have always been as much Texian or Texican as anyone who moved down as part of the First Three Hundred to buy into the Austin colony.  It wasn't just a bunch of Tennessee and Louisiana filibusters that fought and died at the Alamo - a lot of those guys had Spanish names and spoke Spanish - and a lot of the people who didn't were married to women with Spanish names.  Texas DID have a grudge against Mexico - just like her citizens of Spanish and Metizo ancestry did - and Texians were anything but "conservative."  Even as late as the early 1960s, when I was a grade school student in West Texas, many of my classmates were descendents of well-established Spanish-Texan and Mexican-Texan families (see the Institute of Texas Cultures in San Antonio) who had been Texians since long before the revolution, just as my own Anglo-Indian-Texan family had been.  It was considered polite in those days to speak of anyone who was NOT of recent immigrant stock but still spoke Spanish at home and had Spanish names (although often, only surnames) as "Spanish" to distinguish them from "Mexicans" who either were immigrants themselves (wetback or legal) or were the children or grandchildren of immigrants.  I don't recall there being a particular cutoff date for when one's ancestors had come to Texas, any more than there was for German-Texans or French-Texans or Missouri-Texans: it had more to do with the Texan-ness of one's family and attitude.  But heaven help you if you called a Longoria or a Martinez a Mexican in my hometown - they were Spanish, and Texan, and we've got a good place to meet out back of the playground to settle this affair...  It may have been different in East Texas, where they had segregation and all that - but in the Panhandle and the Permian, the old Texas still lived.  In OTL, Texas got drowned out by a bunch of carpetbaggers and "old" Southron types and a lot of people that would have had their necks stretched if it hadn't been for Appomatox and Reconstruction.

Phoenix on November 19, 2006, 01:24:18 am
Well... I was going to make my first post a lovely speech about the brave people of Mexican descent who called themselves Texicans and fought on our side, but I see Mixed-blood beat me to it.

I guess I'll say that something to keep in mind is that the rules of our history do not necessarily apply in an alternate history. Is it really fair to say, "But Bavaria doesn't exist anymore," when you're talking about a story where Texas never became one of the United States?

Also wanted to say that my understanding of Hitler being a vegetarian was that it was his personal quest to find the diet that worked best for him, rather than anything like a moral problem with eating dead animals.  So it wouldn't surprise me if he often strayed from the limits most of us would consider the vegetarian diet. That would make it a bit difficult to define him as a "strict" vegetarian.

I just started reading this last night, and I'm at the beginning of Chapter Four.  Great story!

Kelly
"'Scuse me? First Ammendment? Son, the First Ammendment protects you from the guv'ment... not from me." ---Trace Adkins

Scott on November 20, 2006, 12:09:08 am
I grew up in the Dallas area, where there were fewer long-established Hispanic families (Spanish or Mexican), but I remember going to school with kids with Spanish surnames long before I went to schools with black kids. Spanish and Mexican families have long been part of the fabric of Texas culture, and most of the racism against them has come from Midwesterners and Easterners coming down in the 1950s and later.

Since moving to Wyoming I've been rather shocked by the open disdain and prejudice harbored against Mexicans by Coloradoans and Wyomingites alike (well, most of them, Neil is an exception). My father explains it has much to do with the fact that most of the Mexicans encountered here are peasant immigrants, often migrant farm laborers, and the racism is based on classism as much as anything.


Mixed-blood on November 23, 2006, 09:56:34 am

Since moving to Wyoming I've been rather shocked by the open disdain and prejudice harbored against Mexicans by Coloradoans and Wyomingites alike (well, most of them, Neil is an exception). My father explains it has much to do with the fact that most of the Mexicans encountered here are peasant immigrants, often migrant farm laborers, and the racism is based on classism as much as anything.



Scott, this is indeed unfortunate and true.  But the distain is not limited to either Mexicans or Spanish - when my grandparents and mother and aunt moved from eastern New Mexico to Northern Colorado in the late 1930s, they (Anglo-Texian with a very small amount of Cherokee ancestry) were treated as foreigners - my mother was once complemented on how well she spoke English, for someone from New Mexico.  And in many parts of Colorado, Texans are viewed as nothing but wetbacks or carpetbaggers (depending on how much money they have - poor are wetbacks and rich are carpetbaggers).  Wyoming sometimes has this same problem - perhaps going all the way back to the days of the Texas Trail, when trail drives were made from Texas via Kansas and all the way to the gold fields of western Montana.  Remember that Kansas, especially the "elite" of the towns like Wichita, Ellsworth, and Dodge, considered Texan trailhands to be the scum of the earth, and instituted such quaint customs as the "deadline" (you're dead if you cross the alley behind Front Street up into the part of town where the "real people" live.  Every land and people on earth has to overcome its tribalism - or at least turn its tribes into sources of strength and pride, not hatred and prejustice.  In your story, it is clear that Texas has done a better job than the OTL Texas - but freedom has a way of doing that.

Eager to learn more about other "tribes" in your story: Apache, Comanche, Ute, and even those Wyomingite goat-ropers (common derogatory term for Wyomingites in the Dakotas).

Zen Redneck on November 23, 2006, 12:14:52 pm
Classism? I think it would be more accurate to say culturism, if there be such a word. Should be, if there isn't.

Scott on December 03, 2006, 10:40:46 pm
I have heard the term "cultural ethno-centrism" but that's a mouthful.

I think the notion of "classism" applies here because the Mexican migrant farm workers were certainly uneducated, rowdy, and had a sort of casual notion of property rights common to people who have no property and don't expect to ever have any. In Mexico, which has more stringent class distinctions than the U.S., and a great deal less class mobility, these people were at or near the bottom of the pecking order even in their homeland.

Anglos of my dad's generation who grew up in Colorado were taught by their parents to fear Mexicans, and avoid them at all costs. Many of them developed a sort of Pavolovian aversion-response to the sound of spoken Spanish. This fear and loathing has been passed through the generations, even though educated and middle-class Mexicans have since arrived. It's fairly amazing sometimes when I talk to people my age who consider themselves not to be bigots but will casually disparage Mexicans without a second thought.

Zen Redneck on December 04, 2006, 11:21:33 am
Scott, this is actually a very interesting question. Class or ethnos? You can make arguments for both. Or you could just say xenophobia. In any case, when you say "...certainly uneducated, rowdy, and had a sort of casual notion of property rights common to people who have no property and don't expect to ever have any....", you're setting yourself up to be called a lot of very hysterical names:)

Anyhow, xenophobia is a universal human and probably mammalian characteristic. It's not Pavlov as much as Darwin. And like all inherited characteristics, it was selected for in the past, and may or may not be advantageous in the present and future. Which it is in any given instance is an open question, and no generalized answer is possible. The important thing is to recognize that it's always there. Darwin rules.

Roswell, of course, is a valiant attempt to make a plausible scenario where xenophobia is tempered by reason, at least in one country. It's important that immigrants to Texas are self-selected and pre-screened by their knowledge of Texas' reputation.

Scott on December 06, 2006, 04:27:30 pm
Heh. Well, Neil reminds me that people exist as individuals, not as groups, and any generalization about a group is going to get you into trouble one way or another. No doubt, the trouble-makers among the migrants were a minority within the minority. But there were enough of them that the Anglos could complain about an increase in larceny whenever the migrants were around.

I get in trouble all the time for pointing out discomfiting things. Nothing new to me.

Zen Redneck on December 06, 2006, 04:50:53 pm
"It is hardly to be hoped that one can speak with knowledge and insight without being accused of ignorance and bigotry."

From a nice little website here:

http://curmudgeonjoy.blogspot.com/

Actually, people exist both ways.  Categorization is essential to philosophy and linguistics, probably to the human mind itself.  The important thing is that you realize what a "category" is, and what can be validly said about it, and just what a generalization is.

Frank B. on December 06, 2006, 09:32:27 pm
The important thing is that you realize what a "category" is, and what can be validly said about it, and just what a generalization is.

Like knowing the difference between a model of a thing, and the thing itself. 

Is it clobberin' time?

-- Frank

 

anything