Rocketman on April 18, 2007, 10:59:20 am
Farewell to "The Probability Broach".  It's a real shame that every person on this planet can't read it and understand the Libertarian position on living ones life to the fullest means that the only real freedom comes from not interfering with other people living theirs.
 :'(

smithfield on April 18, 2007, 06:43:20 pm
I am going to miss this part of Wednesday more than any other thing that I have encountered on the web.

41 mag on April 19, 2007, 03:09:35 am
you just want that story to go on           and         on               and on ;D

Bog on April 19, 2007, 04:19:29 am
Distinct prickly sensations in the eye region, realising that I shan't be seeing folk I've come to care about as friends each wednesday. 

Ah, well.   I can always read it again.   And amuse myself, when faced with a quandry, thinking "What would Lucy do...?" ;)

sehlat on April 19, 2007, 10:48:28 am
Ummm, "Venus Belt", "Tom Paine Maru", "Forge of the Elders"? Hmmm? Pretty please.

delphidb96 on April 19, 2007, 01:24:31 pm
Yeah!  TVB!  TPM! TNV!  Heck even The American Zone. :D

Derek

Greybird on April 20, 2007, 05:05:47 pm
Edit: I posted about a tangential matter here, as my first post, because a new member with no posts couldn't start a new topic. Making that post allowed me to start one! So I've moved my posting over here.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 05:12:31 pm by Greybird »

flyingdog on April 21, 2008, 05:29:03 pm
After reading the first few chapters I can understand Probability Broach being a work of fantasy rather than science fiction.

Thomas Jefferson, along with most big virginia planter class, was constantly flirting with bankruptcy.  Without his government salary, slaves, and inheriting a lot of land from his father-in-law he would never have amounted to much.  Not that I'm making any moral judgements.  He was a man of his time, and not as bad as some of the movements that admire him 200 years later.

Had he gotten everything he wanted done he and the other virginia planters would have gone bankrupt all the faster.  The colonies, or at least most of the areas south of the Potomac, would have been reconquered by France or Britain.  Maybe New England/Pennsylvania/New York would have come to there rescue.  But without any of this Liberterian nonsense.

It is strange so many liberterians flock to Colorado: a state much more reliant on expensive infrastructure paid for by federal dollars.

top tier Income Tax rates and corporate tax rates in the 50s and 60s were much higher than they are today.  Although payroll taxes and other taxes were much lower for most of Americans.  A retroactive tax increase would have to be applied to working class shlubs, not people who were already rich.  Besides, people who go to Disney World are inferior.  All of Disney's best stuff was made before 1955 anyways.

Rocketman on April 21, 2008, 08:29:28 pm
Flyingdog:
     I think that's an unfair characterization of the life of Thomas Jefferson.  While he had no male heirs he did have a couple of daughters that he loved dearly.  One of them married unwell.  Her husband who's first name escapes me at the moment but last name was Randolph would be considered in this day and age to have some serious alcohol problem and control issues.  He had a very serious drinking problem and frequently made investment decisions when he was loaded.  His daughter continued to love him and Jefferson felt compelled as a member of his family to help him out financially  That was the kind of man Thomas was.  He also felt the same way about Sally Hemmings who was his late wife's half sister and a slave at Monticello.  Having died broke and in debt was not all his fault and when you look at the accomplishments of the man you realize just how much he contributed to America who he loved dearly.   :'(  :'(

H. Rearden on April 22, 2008, 08:20:54 am
During one of my visits to Colonial Williamsburg I got the rare experience of being able to speak with the Jefferson interpreter while he was out of character and was himself. They have special programs for donors and he does that for a special program he does for donars inside the St. George Tucker house. I told him about the PB and about the Jefferson in the alternate history adding one word to the declaration.

Scott on April 23, 2008, 08:24:32 pm
Well, one might expect a neo-con troll to turn up here once in a while, but his opinions about libertarianism might be more impressive if he even knew how to spell "libertarian."

H. Rearden on April 24, 2008, 07:10:22 pm









Jefferson took a cut in pay while in the various offices he held. Back then office holders were not paid a lot of money if any.  When Jefferson served in the VA House of Burgesses and later House of Delegates he was not paid a sallary. I think at best he might have been partailly reimbursed for his travel wxpense to to Williamsburg.  Jefferson inherited slaves yes. He was not able to free his slaves because that requirted a lot of red tape. One had to get permission by the government to free a slave. There is no way he could have freed or sold all of his slaves even over the course of years without difficulty. The only person I know of who managed to do that and it took years was Nicholas Carter. All planters back then had a rough time. THe sasme is true of family farmers today. It is tough to make a living by farming. In colonial America it was even rougher because the economy was a cresit system rather than a cash currency system. Planters could only trade with England and thy were not paid in cash. THey were paid in trade goods. They had an agent in England who found a buyer for their tobbaco or crop and that buyer entered a credit to their account on his books. THey got paid by getrting word to their agent that they wanted the buyer who purchased their crop to pay them buy purchasing something in England of equal value and shipping it to them. Of course the agent got a paid a percentage probably in cash because he lived in England and not America.  English currency could not legally be brought into America. That is why U.S. curency is not called the pound sterling but rather the dollar because the most popular coin in colonial America was the Spanish milled dollar. I dson't think that you really are aware of how things were back then. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

                                            $









After reading the first few chapters I can understand Probability Broach being a work of fantasy rather than science fiction.

Thomas Jefferson, along with most big virginia planter class, was constantly flirting with bankruptcy.  Without his government salary, slaves, and inheriting a lot of land from his father-in-law he would never have amounted to much.  Not that I'm making any moral judgements.  He was a man of his time, and not as bad as some of the movements that admire him 200 years later.

Had he gotten everything he wanted done he and the other virginia planters would have gone bankrupt all the faster.  The colonies, or at least most of the areas south of the Potomac, would have been reconquered by France or Britain.  Maybe New England/Pennsylvania/New York would have come to there rescue.  But without any of this Liberterian nonsense.

It is strange so many liberterians flock to Colorado: a state much more reliant on expensive infrastructure paid for by federal dollars.

top tier Income Tax rates and corporate tax rates in the 50s and 60s were much higher than they are today.  Although payroll taxes and other taxes were much lower for most of Americans.  A retroactive tax increase would have to be applied to working class shlubs, not people who were already rich.  Besides, people who go to Disney World are inferior.  All of Disney's best stuff was made before 1955 anyways.

Rocketman on April 25, 2008, 11:18:35 am
I would just like to add to this conversation that in my humble opinion Jefferson was the finest president that this country ever had or ever will have.  He was a true genius and renaissance man in every sense of the word.  Of course that means that in today's world that he wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being elected to the Presidency.  Just look at the kind of mud slinging that took place when the closest thing to Jefferson that we have now, Ron Paul ran.   :'(  :'(  :'(

Leviathan on April 26, 2008, 07:22:17 am
Unfortunately, I'm losing faith even in the idea of Paul.  First, the "closest thing" to Jefferson at this point appears to be someone who advocates what Jefferson claimed to oppose :'(  Second, Jefferson got into office, and proceeded to do...  comparatively very little to disempower the system of power.  He seems to have been fairly intent on opposing the powers that be, but his solution was just not to be them as much.  The long-term results?  We got what we got. 

What would the best case scenario be if Paul got in?  In four or eight years, he'd be back out.  People would, for awhile, have heard the message.  And then they'd go right back to begging the government to point a gun at somebody to get their favorite cause accomplished.  People would go back to being told what they want to hear, that there's a magic bullet that can make everything wrong in their lives right.  And all it takes is laws and tax money.

I guess what I've really lost faith in is the ability of any system of power to be turned against itself.  That what needs changing (abolishing) is much more fundamental.  Changing the figurehead won't do anything until we, as a people, stop letting government do this to us!  Government is a parasite.  We need a delousing.

Also, for the record, Jefferson doesn't seem particularly anarchic.  True, anarcho-capitalism had yet to be formulated.  To my knowledge, anyway.  And true, the founding system was a major leap in the direction of an ungoverned populace from absolute, or even constitutional, monarchies.  But I suspect from the tenor of the rest of the Declaration, including the early drafts, that wording to the effect of having "unanimous" before "consent" was intentionally omitted.  For the same reasoning as I hear when I propose it, likely.  Would you have a murderer given the power to veto the law that says it is wrong to kill?  Would a pirate stand before the tribunal and state, "I do not consent to the governance of property, therefore my theft of it is out of your bounds?"  The idea that one can defend against such usurpations of liberty without having an organization that is theoretically charged with usurping the liberty of the guilty (and inevitably moves onto usurping the liberty of those it is supposed to protect) is hard to grasp for people who have lived under the delusion of governance for any length of time.  Even Iceland never finally rid itself of the Althing, which lead to the downfall of the near-anarchy which that people had lived within.

Rocketman on April 26, 2008, 08:29:20 am
Leviathan:  I both agree and at the same time disagree with the statements that you have just made.  Ron Paul may not be a perfect Jeffersonian example, actually since I consider him to be a classical Federalist, he's closer politically to George Washington.  He is however unique in that all other members of Congress are variants of either Socialists or Communists.  If I had my choice I would rather put Thomas Jefferson back in the White House but that's not going to happen.  Paul would be a quantum leap over what we have now or are likely to get on Janurary 20, 2009 and frankly you have to be able to walk before you can run.
     The fact that Paul did in my opinion poorly only shows how much that the population of the U.S. has bought into the lies of the media and government (which in these times are practically the same thing) .  I have an analogy for the situation that I believe is apt.
  Supposed that you are a 35 year old man, a college graduate in the field of accounting.  You started out as a teller in a local city bank, got married and had a couple of children.  In time your promoted to loan officer and then to assistant branch manager.  You've worked hard for the bank for ten years and now it's paying off.  One day you are promoted to branch manager in a small nearby town where your new bank branch has just been opened.  In the grocery store you run into the mayor of the town who invites you to a weekly poker game with a few of the local leaders.  You think to yourself "great" I'll be able to make all kinds of connections.  They intoduce themselves and you learn that your playing poker with the Police Chief of the town and it's Judge as well.  You start loseing significant money right off the bat.   The friendly "penny anny" game that you were told of turns out to be high stakes (for you anyway) cut throat poker.  Near the end of the game when your almost cleaned out you start to notice that they've been giving each other signals and dealing from the bottom of the deck.  With the last of your money gone they call it a night.  You swear to yourself that you'll never play poker with these cheats ever again.  The next week just before the poker game you call the mayor and cancel saying that your wife is sick and you need to stay home and take care of her.  The next morning when you go to your car you notice that someone has broken out one of it's tail lights.  A police car which just happens to follow you right out of your driveway stops you on the way to work and charges you for the infraction which costs $250 dollars.  The next day someone slashes one of your tires costing you another $125.  You get a phone call at work from the mayor who says that he saw your wife out and that she looks much better which means that there shouldn't be any reason that you can't make next weeks poker game is there?
  At this point in time you have to make a decision.  Is it really feasible to try to take on the mayor, police chief and judge of the city where your trying to get settled or is it better to know when to "fold them" as Kenny Rodgers says and quit your job and start over some where else.  If you decide to stay always keep in the back of your mind that the game is rigged and 999 times out of a thousand your at best only going to break even.   If you decide to go your sacrificing short term insecurity for long term prosperty.  Someone who's smart and a hard worker would always do better choosing the latter.

 

anything